So my understanding is WoW used WarCraft III as a base when it was first made

[Shelly]

Why would we need quarrying and logging? Isnt that mining and herb picking with different skins?

It's just part of their true premise in that what they want is player housing. I'd assume logging and quarrying would produce the goods to make housing.

Anyway, regarding housing, it's not for WoW.

You have to remember that each expansion is a separate game. If they added housing it would either have to be as a truly massive gold-sink or it would have to be abandoned with each expansion.

Also for housing let's go ahead and take a look at the defunct game "Wildstar" you could build a floating rocket house and fill it completely with tables, chairs, benches, art, clocks, rugs and so on.

WoW doesn't do that. WoW using base models and placeholders. Why do you think every Northrend inn looks the same? Why every Orc house looks the same? Why you don't see extra doo-dads in the buildings you can enter? I'm not saying it's not doable but it's just not WoW where one of the core points of WoW is a unified visual theme.

Same with upgrading skills as you use them more often. This isn't a complaint that classes are dumbed down or anything like that, but as it stands over the course of a fight my warrior hit's Rampage anywhere from 50 to 100 times at a rough estimate. Are you a frost mage? How often do you hit ice lance? Monk and tiger palm, paladin and hammer or judgment, warlock with shadowbolt?

To have a skill get better over time of use would only do two things: require a catch-up mechanic for alts since you wouldn't want to be behind by 5 to 25% more damage than your friend who has a main of the class you're alting or because your raid requires you max your skill or it would have to be capped extremely early such as classic weapon skills.

[bmjclark]

Every single thing you listed is possible in WoWs current engine. Blizzard can change the engine however they see fit as well (and they have over the years). Putting content like that in is relatively easy for them I'd assume, it's more of a question of if they want to do it than if they can.

[Louz]

Like everyone says, what OP suggest is very well doable with the current engine.
However, it would look shit - as usual.

I guess for people who play WoW and only WoW, this ghetto style doesn't look that bad, because they don't know anything better, but play any AAA game from past 10 years and tell me WoW doesn't look like shit.

Yeah, the artists can whip up some beautiful designs, but then you see the characters waving their hands in the air instead of actually performing the action, or being bent in some weird way, because instead of animating the thing, they just use a frame of some other animation or combine different ones - the ingame cutscenes show that the most, and you can only laugh or shake your head wondering how this passes in current year.
They just make the game look like a mod, not something that's made by this big company that likes to flex its bigness.

Or the total lack of physics - basically gravity being the only thing that could be called physics, but games in 1980 have that.
They slowly (very very very slowly) started adding softbody physics to some armor pieces and NPCs (no player models so far), but imagine if objects actually colided, ragdolled and so on.

[Stormspark]

The argument "WOW started development on the Warcraft 3 engine, so it's outdated" is like saying Half-Life: Alyx runs on the Quake engine. Because you can trace the newer Source engine to the older Source engine, which has its roots in the Goldsrc engine, which in turn began life as a modification of the Quake engine.

Guess what? Game engines change and evolve over time. The OP was made by someone that obviously knows NOTHING about programming or game design. It's like listening to a chef complain about nuclear reactor designs.

[Masternap]

I'm a software developer and I think this topic might have killed half of my brain cells. What in the world you talking about?

[Lazuli]

WoW has tons of technical issues (mostly lag) but I don't think engine is part of it, its very adaptable/flexible for what they want to do with it however maybe they do push it too far.

Now FF14 .. that needs a new engine, its extremely limiting and lacks basic features, not nearly as flexible as GW2 or WoW engine which have surprisingly good engines and both were built upon their predecessor's engine.

[ONCHEhap]

No, I just don't agree that garrisons can be considered housing in any degree. They're literally just instanced maps with some minor choices for building locations.

Is that seriously what you think of when you think of player housing? It was poorly received because the feature was half-baked and sucked ass, not because it was housing.

Blizzard called it housing
Most players saw it as housing
It flopped really fucking hard.


With that in mind,there's pretty much no chance that they ever risk anything anywhere related to housing ever again

- - - Updated - - -

The argument "WOW started development on the Warcraft 3 engine, so it's outdated" is like saying Half-Life: Alyx runs on the Quake engine. Because you can trace the newer Source engine to the older Source engine, which has its roots in the Goldsrc engine, which in turn began life as a modification of the Quake engine.

Guess what? Game engines change and evolve over time. The OP was made by someone that obviously knows NOTHING about programming or game design. It's like listening to a chef complain about nuclear reactor designs.

Imagine if we were to rip into every game engine that were built one way or another upon Quake 1 to 3's engines
We'd be there for months

[Shaetha]

Like everyone says, what OP suggest is very well doable with the current engine.
However, it would look shit - as usual.

I guess for people who play WoW and only WoW, this ghetto style doesn't look that bad, because they don't know anything better, but play any AAA game from past 10 years and tell me WoW doesn't look like shit.

Yeah, the artists can whip up some beautiful designs, but then you see the characters waving their hands in the air instead of actually performing the action, or being bent in some weird way, because instead of animating the thing, they just use a frame of some other animation or combine different ones - the ingame cutscenes show that the most, and you can only laugh or shake your head wondering how this passes in current year.
They just make the game look like a mod, not something that's made by this big company that likes to flex its bigness.

Or the total lack of physics - basically gravity being the only thing that could be called physics, but games in 1980 have that.
They slowly (very very very slowly) started adding softbody physics to some armor pieces and NPCs (no player models so far), but imagine if objects actually colided, ragdolled and so on.

It's an absurd ask to expect someone to upgrade their computer for someone else's vanity.

That is what any complaint about graphics would be. Either you massively bloat the install size with all the different sizes of texture and squeeze people out that way, or you make the specs so high a lot of people can't run it.

[Belloc]

Like everyone says, what OP suggest is very well doable with the current engine.
However, it would look shit - as usual.

I guess for people who play WoW and only WoW, this ghetto style doesn't look that bad, because they don't know anything better, but play any AAA game from past 10 years and tell me WoW doesn't look like shit.

As someone that has enjoyed games from the original Nintendo to current-gen consoles and high-end PC graphics, WoW looks fantastic. WoW's style is intentional. You might not like it, but it absolutely does not look like shit.

[qwerty123456]

I dont think the code the reason that Azeroth is small than it should be, I think its more due to the fact nobody wants to spend 25 minutes just getting from one end of a city to the other.

[cparle87]

No, I just don't agree that garrisons can be considered housing in any degree. They're literally just instanced maps with some minor choices for building locations.

Is that seriously what you think of when you think of player housing? It was poorly received because the feature was half-baked and sucked ass, not because it was housing.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the no true scotsman fallacy.

[Irian]

You might want to familiarize yourself with the no true scotsman fallacy.

This isn't really an example of it at all. My point was less that it isn't "true housing" and more that the thing that Blizzard described in the same announcement where they claimed Garrisons were housing did not ever actually even come out. When they called it housing, they also said it was going to allow you to choose a location in the world, and that you would be able to decorate and customize it extensively.

It's very very obvious they didn't have the time or means to implement Garrisons as they were actually intended to be designed when they called them "player housing". They're all the same, with the layouts being nearly identical save for a select few buildings and almost no customization to be had.

Also, this isn't an argument. Are people on MMO-C incapable of discussing something without acting like we're having a debate? Bringing fallacies into what I thought was a casual thread about discussion devolved into bickering semantics. You people are pedantic to a kind of pathetic degree sometimes.

[Louz]

As someone that has enjoyed games from the original Nintendo to current-gen consoles and high-end PC graphics, WoW looks fantastic. WoW's style is intentional. You might not like it, but it absolutely does not look like shit.

Who says I'm talking about art style?
I specifically said that the designs are great.

What I meant looks like shit is how nothing is done "properly".
For example - you have to carry some object over and put it on ground.
Instead of proper "pick up" animation, your character does the usual "rubbing hands", then bends over using "loot".
Then they use frames from other animation to make your character point arms forward so it looks like it's carrying it, but with the upper body being frozen and only lower body being animated by walking animation, it looks absolutely ridiculous.
Finally when you put the object down, it just disappears from your character hands and fades in on the spot where it's supposed to be - sometimes they mask it by adding some dust particles or something.

That's what I mean looks like shit.
Plus that there's no physics.

Funny how whenever someone mentions WoW looks outdated, people like you immediately think it's the art style.
And to the poster above - the "toaster" meme does not apply on the things I said neither - again someone thinking only the size of textures and number of polygons matter.

[Neuroticaine]

...Or rather its source code to be more specific.

I've always wondered why Blizzard never just remade the game's source code and more so almost 10 expansions later. I feel like at this point it's time for that big a change. I get the whole "Don't fix what isn't broken" point but what if the fact that WoW uses the WCIII's source code is limiting how much and what kinds of changes to the game that could be made? This is something I've thought about ever since I heard a few years ago that WoW uses WCIII's source code as a base and still does now as far as I'm aware.

If Blizzard decided to remake the game's source code and stopped using WCIII's, I think it could lead even more possabilities. I think the real reason we are so limited in a sense is because WoW is using WCIII's Source Code. I know it won't be easy or worth the likely years worth of time that would need to be undertaken to make new code for a 16-year old game from scratch.

You remake the source code, you need to also remake the code for all content and that would be quite a massive undertaking to do unless they figured out a way to streamline the process. Of course they probably would have done it a long time ago if they actually did feel that way. Cataclysm, WoD and BFA were the three best times to have done something that groundbreaking IMO. All I can do is imagine the possabilities if Blizzard felt it was worth it.

Since I'm going into pure speculation at this point, here's my short list of stuff I think would be possible if Blizzard redid the game's source code from scratch:

• MUCH Bigger Azeroth: I'm just gonna put it like that. I mean in the sense the world is much closer to Lore in size and scope. Imagine Jade Forest 4 times bigger than it currently is for example. Player Housing could also actually be much easier to justify adding to the game since Azeroth will be much, much bigger than it currently is.
• Player-Made Outposts, Villages and Towns: I feel like Cata and BFA would have been the the two expansions to introduce this though it is true we got an outpost in WoD. How about being able to build an Outpost and Village (Horde) or Town (Alliance)? Outposts would be single-player controlled while Villages and Towns would be controlled by a Guild or a group of players. Both types would have NPC Guards and be fully customizable.
• New Professions - Logging and Quarry: You can now make use of the world's natural resources by harvesting and processing resources to make building materials. More can also now be done with all existing professions as well.
• New Profession - Farming: With your own land, you can now manage a farm! Hunters, Shaman and Druids will have a few additional options available to them.
• Create Spell or Skill: What if you could create your own abilities? Imagine a Protection Warrior being able to equip two Shields and suffer very little damage. A Warlock can Summon and Control ALL of their Minions at once. Shaman can literally terraform the world itself. These are just a few of the many possabilities!
• Multi-Casting: What's better than casting one spell? Several! Imagine to either cast the same spell several times at once or a few abilities at the same time. A Mage can open Portals to several places. A Priest can cast Resurrection or 2 or more party/raid Members. Hunter's Mark can be applied to several targets at once. Just a few ideas.
• Spell or Skill Save: This would come in real handy against bosses and in PvP: You que a Spell or Skill to use it a little later.
• Skill or Spell Upgrading: The more you use your skills, the more powerful and potent they become. Not just in numbers but they actually evolve and become more powerful. For example a Mage's Fireball can be upgraded to take longer to cast but exchange it will do more damage and stun the opponent. A Death Knight's Raise Undead can be upgraded so they can summon and control several types of Undead. A Priest's Smite Spell can be upgraded so it does splash damage with a knockback effect to the main target. Stuff like that.

Just a few things I literally just thought of just now. LOL. Of course, I know most of these would never actually happen even with new Source Code.

Sooooooo you basically want to turn WoW into another dime-a-dozen, uninspired sandbox RPG?

[Huzzaa]

The netcode is absolute garbage, could definitely argue that it's not functioning/broken. There's a reason the game is bad at detecting changes in facing, movement, movement direction and position in general. There's a lot of technical limitations restricting design. Remember Blackwater Behemoth and how people just suicided the soak instead of trying to actually play it, because the game is awful at detecting position in 3 dimensions? Or the Jadefire Masters minigame where you had to actively release your mouse for the game to properly update your facing, meaning you had less time to react to each part of the combo?
Then there's bugs that have been there since the beginning of the game like Blink going backwards, nowhere or getting stopped by some tiny pebble.

Garbage, to an extent. And then if even. Is it really?

None of the examples you provided were a problem for me, outside of actual lag on my end or the server, ever.

What I would recommend is try and swap your TCP congestion algorithm to CTCP. It changes the way the game feels, a lot. Try it out. And perhaps do some QoS, AQM on your outbound WAN if you know the terms. That also helps, a lot.

These examples you provided are proof of poor overall network performance on your end more or less.

The lag you're probably referring to is the server lag in the outside open world and that is because of their anticheat system. Also, at times, because a World Boss is up and overloading the servers CPU/reaching allocated pods limits.

[Stormspark]

I dont think the code the reason that Azeroth is small than it should be, I think its more due to the fact nobody wants to spend 25 minutes just getting from one end of a city to the other.

Exactly. At one point in early alpha, they tried making Goldshire a realistic size (population: 7000). It ended up huge and sprawling, with tons of useless NPC's all over the place. Blizzard realized that there were only about 10 NPC's that the players would ever interact with, and most of the sprawl of buildings would be unused. So they scaled all the settlements down from their true size to a size that would actually work in an MMORPG. If they tried to make cities and distances between them their ACTUAL size in lore, it would take about a week to get from Undercity to Tarren Mill. And to get to Northrend, you'd be spending a month on a boat. People always complained about the flight from Moonglade to Thunder Bluff...imagine how long it would take if realistic distances were involved?

NONE of these things had anything to do with the engine. In fact, there isn't ANY game engine that can handle a continguous land mass the lore size of Eastern Kingdoms, without having TONS of loading screens. Oh, and to store all that you would have to have several petabytes of data at the very minimum. The only time I have ever even heard of a realistic sized landmass in a game like that is when it's done with procedural generation...and still, only 10 NPC's are relevant to the player, and the game ends up mostly empty space with tons of wasted time, and there is no immersion. I would certainly not be immersed by getting on a flight path and the game telling me it would take 2 days to reach my destination.

There is even a trope for this, and yes it's done for gameplay reasons (because games should be fun to play and realistic size and travel times are not), not nebulous "engine" reasons. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...aceCompression WOW itself has a large entry on that trope page. Even in early alpha they had the tech to make the continents and cities MUCH larger than they are now, it wasn't done because it wouldn't have been good game design. These passages in particular stand out to me.

Goldshire was quite large in the early in the beta, but players found it confusing and all towns were shrunk by necessity. Not much of a need for 7000 NPCs when only about 15 do anything.

People have used the Cartographer mod to measure the continents. Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms are each just over fifteen kilometers long, north to south.

Apparently in early Alpha builds the continents were much more realistically sized, but testers and employees rapidly realised that this was incredibly boring. (A good hint... back in "Vanilla", people would complain about the flight from Moonglade to Thunder Bluff. Imagine how it'd be if it were realistically sized.)

[Leouch]

just wait for better mmo that have what you want (like Ashes of Creation). Blizzard is too lazy to implement better systems, they stick to safest route(at least for now)

[chubbybunny]

It's called WOD Garrisons, they did try, and they flopped hard. Once they try something and 90% of the playerbase hates it, the chances of them reworking it and bringing it back is really slim.

You must of started in BFA.

and the garrisons were an expansion of the tillers farm in Pandaria.. You must of started in Draenor....

[Gorsameth]

its not so much "don't fix what isn't broken" as it is "why buy a new Ferrari when your old one still works", that stuffs very expensive.

but even if they did everything perfectly and cut no corners whatsoever back then, it's been 20 years since they started work on this game so stuff would start to show it's age no matter what.

Because Blizzard wants you standing around in Stormwind/Orgrimmar/Expansion Hub making that look lively and not sitting inside your own house away from the world.

WoD had that issue with Garrisons.

[rrayy]

Not to mention they were nothing like what was presented and promised at their announcement.

Blizzard never promised anything. People need to stop using that word. Also, they weren't like they were presented because when they actually got working on it they realized it would take far more time and resources to get what they wanted than they had.

Player housing nonsense needs to stop. WoW has worked for 15 years with out it and it is not needed. IF people want to play house, Sims -->