Should my specific personality even bother trying Mythic plus?

[Omedon]

So, you can look at my post history and see that I strongly advocate that tackling mythic plus with a full group of strangers is wholly and completely not intended, at least as I as an admitted outsider observe the mode and its design intent. The fact that the whole mode is put behind premade groups says to me that Blizzard is assuming that if you have ambitions here, you have a group that ideally lets friendship or a shared goal smooth the bumps of sketchy class balance and a volatile meta. For the last two expansions I've basically stopped being a "dungeon guy" in favor of taking my army of tank alts into the open world for much fun and profit, but before that I was "the guild tank" for an extremely casual RL friends guild that didn't raid but ran dungeons religiously in WOTLK. My roots and PVE instincts go deep in the etiquette of older dungeon runs: the tank leads, the healer determines the pace, and the DPS let those two do those things.

...But I'm not blind to a new... I guess lack of respect for 5-man content below the mythic level. DPS PUGs (we can assemble 3 people at the most these days, so there are always PUGs) running ahead and pulling, the argument of "you're not the bossa me" when all I'm trying to do is prevent wipes, and the whip-cracking to go faster because "it's just a heroic." These have all pushed me out of 5-man trinity content just around the same time world quests conveniently came into place to replace dungeons completely for me. When we run our timewalking (the only dungeons we run regularly any more) we queue with three so we can't be kicked, and so we can prune the toxic, but really... should we have to do that to have a chill time in a dungeon that people are taking seriously? Is it so hard to respect the content regardless of level?

...Or should we be upping the ante to find that respect?

I could, in theory, likely assemble our usual dungeon running group of three (myself tanking, my best friend an adamant healer, and a fellow altoholic who mains a warlock) to try Mythic plus, filling in the spaces with DPS PUGs with reasonable criteria to join a chill dungeon run. I could... but I guess I'm asking if we're still going to run into as many pulling DPS or "LOL it's just X level key" mindsets? Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks? I realize that any implied threat to kick likely rings hollow in a M+ because there is a timer, and "leaving" is bad, so... is the key itself enough to get a little bit of "relax and let me pull in a way that isn't going to wipe us" and have that be respected?

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies.

[facefist]

The timer makes people want to rush it, so unless for example LOS pulling is required/makes it faster, you will get called out for wasting time.

So if you're looking for chill runs, m+ is probably even worse. Unless you are lucky enough to find people with similar mindset. Maybe some low level keys later in the expansion would be fine, but in the beginning most people just want efficiency.

[callipygoustp]

Man, dude, you are way WAY over thinking this.

[Omedon]

Man, dude, you are way WAY over thinking this.

I get that it probably looks that way, but part of that "old school dungeon etiquette" comes with a keen sense of "you're on other people's time, don't waste it." So yeah, Imma overthink it a bit before I step into where everyone is playing their super serious progression game, a bit.

[Nnyco]

You sound like a fun guy. You will probably fit right in m+ pugging.

[potis]

I could, in theory, likely assemble our usual dungeon running group of three (myself tanking, my best friend an adamant healer, and a fellow altoholic who mains a warlock) to try Mythic plus, filling in the spaces with DPS PUGs with reasonable criteria to join a chill dungeon run. I could... but I guess I'm asking if we're still going to run into as many pulling DPS or "LOL it's just X level key" mindsets? Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks? I realize that any implied threat to kick likely rings hollow in a M+ because there is a timer, and "leaving" is bad, so... is the key itself enough to get a little bit of "relax and let me pull in a way that isn't going to wipe us" and have that be respected?

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

Frankly it just sounds like some sort of internal struggle of a casual player that kinda refuses to evolve, which is exactly why WoW has so many difficulties and scaling and free gear, you are literally the perfect target group (not insulting, just stating).

You can play the game how you want, but realistically, and something most people on here, refuse to understand, as with everything else in life, you need to put some time and effort.

Your problem is quite simple to fix, state in your group requirements that its either some sort of newbie learning group, or timer irrelevant, and similar stuff, there are multiple people like yourself out there, afraid to do anything extra, try to attract them.

Generally, weed out the people you think dont fit your mindset, thats all you can do.

[Ragnarohk]

So, you can look at my post history and see that I strongly advocate that tackling mythic plus with a full group of strangers is wholly and completely not intended, at least as I as an admitted outsider observe the mode and its design intent. The fact that the whole mode is put behind premade groups says to me that Blizzard is assuming that if you have ambitions here, you have a group that ideally lets friendship or a shared goal smooth the bumps of sketchy class balance and a volatile meta. For the last two expansions I've basically stopped being a "dungeon guy" in favor of taking my army of tank alts into the open world for much fun and profit, but before that I was "the guild tank" for an extremely casual RL friends guild that didn't raid but ran dungeons religiously in WOTLK. My roots and PVE instincts go deep in the etiquette of older dungeon runs: the tank leads, the healer determines the pace, and the DPS let those two do those things.

...But I'm not blind to a new... I guess lack of respect for 5-man content below the mythic level. DPS PUGs (we can assemble 3 people at the most these days, so there are always PUGs) running ahead and pulling, the argument of "you're not the bossa me" when all I'm trying to do is prevent wipes, and the whip-cracking to go faster because "it's just a heroic." These have all pushed me out of 5-man trinity content just around the same time world quests conveniently came into place to replace dungeons completely for me. When we run our timewalking (the only dungeons we run regularly any more) we queue with three so we can't be kicked, and so we can prune the toxic, but really... should we have to do that to have a chill time in a dungeon that people are taking seriously? Is it so hard to respect the content regardless of level?

...Or should we be upping the ante to find that respect?

I could, in theory, likely assemble our usual dungeon running group of three (myself tanking, my best friend an adamant healer, and a fellow altoholic who mains a warlock) to try Mythic plus, filling in the spaces with DPS PUGs with reasonable criteria to join a chill dungeon run. I could... but I guess I'm asking if we're still going to run into as many pulling DPS or "LOL it's just X level key" mindsets? Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks? I realize that any implied threat to kick likely rings hollow in a M+ because there is a timer, and "leaving" is bad, so... is the key itself enough to get a little bit of "relax and let me pull in a way that isn't going to wipe us" and have that be respected?

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies.

You usually get people like that when they are over geared or have a higher than needed R.io. They think that they are entitled to everything.

If you want to PuG DPS and have a friendly run I suggest you take people that are geared at the required level (or even slightly lower). This doesn't guarantee anything, but so far it works for me. They tend to be greatful and actually put some effort. Also, at the end they get good upgrades, it's always nice to see that

[Bloodyleech]

I'm someone that goes into heroics with his Havoc DH as Tank. I rush through it, doing these dungeons without even looking after group members, as I don't need them and just want to get fast through it.
Honest question: why should I take a chill in dungeons that I already did like.. 100 times? There is no "do dis trash, wait a sec for mana" anymore. This was the only reason why people took their time in dungeons. Not because "lets respect dungeons! go slow!".

Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks?

It's not needed to do stuff like in the early days. LoS pulls happen, but they are rare - VERY rare.

If you go slow and don't get the timer, you hinder yourself, though. No key upgrades = no better gear.

You are living in the past. Since WOTLK (since mana is mostly no hindrance anymore) you don't do dungeons "slow" anymore. Why? Because you don't have to. Everyone that plays dungeons regulary doesn't care for the dungeon itself anymore and just want to get through.
On higher keys you wont see any DPS/Heal pulling stuff - they would die instantly and kill the timer.

[Demeisen]

If you're running your key, and you specify in the group finder that you're looking for a relaxed run and will not necessarily make the timer, then I think you shouldn't have any issues. DPS will typically self-select if it's clear enough in the notes, and are much more forgiving if it's your key that's being depleted.

On the other hand, if you're running a stranger's key, and they haven't specified that they're looking for a relaxed run, you will likely run into a lot of issues if you pull slowly.

[Doffen]

I probably pug more m+ than doing it with guildies, and I don't see this issue you talk about often. Mostly when doing, at least lower end m+, there are very little toxicity or dps pulling shit and don't have respect for tanks. In my experience, tanks had too much respect in the past and could be an asshole while the rest of the group didn't dare to say anything back. But as said, I don't see this a lot, and 98 out of 100 players I meet, tank, healer or dps, they are all chill people. It happens that there are conflict, yes but it's not a big issue as far as I am concerned.

I am not saying I don't believe you and your views btw, it's just my personal experience. And that experience is that most people I do dungeons with, especially below m+ 10 are very chill, while at 15 and around there, the competitor in people is more showing. When it comes to participation for me, it's opposite of yours. In WoD I barely did dungeons while when they added mythic+ I started doing that more than raiding and other things. It was the thing I didn't know I needed, but it was really a great change for me. To have dungeons really matter again I had not experienced since TBC.

It's hard to actually tell you what's best in this situation, but have you tried it like properly, or are you afraid that you are going to have such a bad experience that you won't try it again?

If you're running your key, and you specify in the group finder that you're looking for a relaxed run and will not necessary make the timer, then I think you shouldn't have any issues.

This is a good point.

[Omedon]

If you're running your key, and you specify in the group finder that you're looking for a relaxed run and will not necessarily make the timer, then I think you shouldn't have any issues. DPS will typically self-select if it's clear enough in the notes, and are much more forgiving if it's your key that's being depleted.

On the other hand, if you're running a stranger's key, and they haven't specified that they're looking for a relaxed run, you will likely run into a lot of issues if you pull slowly.

I hadn't considered the "whose key is it" dynamic. In the scenario I envision, it would always be "our" key (one of the three of us), so that does help. And yes being descriptive in the LFG client would be a must as well!

- - - Updated - - -

You are living in the past. Since WOTLK (since mana is mostly no hindrance anymore) you don't do dungeons "slow" anymore. Why? Because you don't have to. Everyone that plays dungeons regulary doesn't care for the dungeon itself anymore and just want to get through.

I guess my rebuttal to that (and I do thank you for being honest) is how does anyone "break in" to a system like that? How does a new tank or healer... like... learn the ropes if the whole culture is so "don't be new on my time", a problem that already exists even before M+ in WoW?

[Demeisen]

I guess my rebuttal to that (and I do thank you for being honest) is how does anyone "break in" to a system like that? How does a new tank or healer... like... learn the ropes if the whole culture is so "don't be new on my time", a problem that already exists even before M+ in WoW?

Typically, people take one or more of the following approaches:

- Learn the dungeon with friends who don't care so much about timing the key.
- Learn the dungeon as DPS and watch how the tank pulls.
- Read online guides or watch videos.
- Install an addon like Mythic Dungeon Tools, which allows you to pre-plan dungeon routes with a significant degree of granularity.
- Join a random group anyway and hope for the best.

[Bloodyleech]

I guess my rebuttal to that (and I do thank you for being honest) is how does anyone "break in" to a system like that? How does a new tank or healer... like... learn the ropes if the whole culture is so "don't be new on my time", a problem that already exists even before M+ in WoW?

Mostly doing own keys and state that you are new. Maybe watch a video or look up possible routes (careful, there are different routes, depending on the key level. below 10 and 10/higher). It should work if you just run Mythic 0s to 4s and think about "what should I pull? What CAN I pull (depends on keylevel + gear)? What could kill our group (missing cc/low amount of kicks..)?
As an old school player that is mostly about caring for old mechanics, you have to shake off the need for playing "to save".
Any good healer can sustain mana over the dungeon. The only thing that changed in 15 years is the fact that a healer does DPS when there are times where no one needs any healing. Ofc don't spam useless/overhealing heals, otherwise mana will a problem.
Any good tank should not just pull 1 group, but as much as he knows that HE (in premades its a "he + heal", in pugs you have to always remember that the healer may not be good) can sustain (and ofc not kills the group via mechanics).

[Th3Scourge]

1. Make your own group - state the objective of the run if you want to chill/not in time
2. Don't sign up to someone else's key if you don't want to run M+ in the intended way
3. If you want to learn new specs/roles, either make your own groups or join lower keys that you overgear
4. If you can't find groups under step 2 or 3, refer to step 1

[Ezyah]

The time for you to write this post you could have pugged a grp and be nearly finished depending on key level ...

[Omedon]

The time for you to write this post you could have pugged a grp and be nearly finished depending on key level ...

Right, but I'd be new on someone else's time and apparently that's even more of a grave sin in M+ than it is everywhere else haha!

- - - Updated - - -

1. Make your own group - state the objective of the run if you want to chill/not in time

This does seem to be the prevailing best advice that I'll admit I'm so ignorant to M+ I hadn't even considered. The ownership of the key I mean.

[Bloodyleech]

This does seem to be the prevailing best advice that I'll admit I'm so ignorant to M+ I hadn't even considered. The ownership of the key I mean.

As long as you state how you want to do the dungeon, everything should be fine. Just learning stuff, like it has always have been.

[nottrikki]

1. you dont need to be a personality type to do content in a video game
2. you are overthinking all of this
3. you seem to have a god complex evidenced by feeling the need to join a group as a majority so you can kick/remove people you dont like
4. what respect could anyone possibly have for someone who has to have a set group for HEROIC DUNGEONS
5. wotlk was 10 years ago so let go boomer

[Simulacrum]

11 years of membership here generated this OP. Think about that.

tackling mythic plus with a full group of strangers is wholly and completely not intended

Well, you're wholly and completely wrong. Pugging M+ is trivially easy, after you've made the effort to start. You won't probably won't be pushing 20+ or whatever but who cares about that. It's very possible to hit the ilvl reward cap.

we queue with three so we can't be kicked, and so we can prune the toxic

You ever see Justified? I love Justified

[Henako]

You're making a problem out of nothing. Just run low keys. They're hardly any more difficult. This problem is solved by getting over your fear and just smashing through dungeons until you're used to it.