Caster loot prio, let me understand

[ryjkur]

Many guilds and pugs that have moonkin have mage/warlock prio on items like ToEP etc powerful items. I always ask why and they say "they do more dps, more benefit for raids."

But it contradicts with the fact that Frostbolt has coefficient of 3/3.5*0.95 = 81.4% per spellpower and Starfire has 3.5/3.5 = 100%.
So in other words Frost mage gets (1*0.814)/2.5 = 0.326 dps per spellpower before any talent modifiers while Moonkin gets (1*1)/3 = 0.333 dps per spell power before talent modifiers.
Fireball also has same coefficient than Starfire.

So in theory shouldn't 100 spell power item benefit raid more if given to moonkin instead of frostmage? 100 spellpower increases raid dps by 33.333 if given to druid and 33.326 if given to frost mage.

Of course without simulation tools it's impossible to say the actual dps ups because it varies with gear etc. (moonkins get faster casts after crit etc.) but shouldn't all casters be treated equal?

Am I missing something or don't guilds/pugs understand that every caster basically benefits from spell damage equally?

[Devilyaki]

Oomkins lol. Really that’s just classic for you, pure classes get the gear, us poor moonkin and kitty cats get the scraps.

[ryjkur]

Oomkins lol. Really that’s just classic for you, pure classes get the gear, us poor moonkin and kitty cats get the scraps.

Well fights are so short even in pugs I haven't had mana issues at all. In longer fights I might drink mana potion or two but never oom.

[kukkamies]

Moonkins get no hit chance from talents which is 6% to mages.

Talent differences against frost mages are moonkins get 4% more dmg, but 10% less crit chance. So around 6% more dmg for mages.
Fire mages get 15% extra damage and 6% crit over moonkins and ignite instead of 100% less crit damage. So around 17% more for mages?
Nature's Grace balances it a bit, but not too much. It's equivalent to maybe 15% more crit damage? So maybe 3-4% damage?

So overall frost mages would be around 10% more scaling and fire mages maybe 20% more?

[Jurwi]

Well fights are so short even in pugs I haven't had mana issues at all. In longer fights I might drink mana potion or two but never oom.

While that might be true for a lot of fights that are indeed short even in PUGs, there are plenty of not so short fights especially in AQ40, and even more coming in Naxx "soon". It's those fights where moonkin becomes the notorious oomkin and just cripples the raid DPS.

On the actual scaling math I can't really be bothered with, it's been pointed out enough times already everywhere that moonkins just don't cut it compared to mages/warlocks.

PUGs prioritizing loot to mages/warlocks over moonkins sounds absolutely stupid though, I wouldn't even enter those PUGs if I was a moonkin player.

[justandulas]

Pure classes deserve the top tier items. No question it’s better served on them.

While mana isn’t a concern in Mc, it is in aq40 and naxx. Same for hit and crit

If you want that priority, you need to either lead your own pug or reroll as one of the top tier classes

[Shakhar]

Go to guild with dkp, council loot is a scam.

[xGLxAnubis]

Many guilds and pugs that have moonkin have mage/warlock prio on items like ToEP etc powerful items. I always ask why and they say "they do more dps, more benefit for raids."

But it contradicts with the fact that Frostbolt has coefficient of 3/3.5*0.95 = 81.4% per spellpower and Starfire has 3.5/3.5 = 100%.
So in other words Frost mage gets (1*0.814)/2.5 = 0.326 dps per spellpower before any talent modifiers while Moonkin gets (1*1)/3 = 0.333 dps per spell power before talent modifiers.
Fireball also has same coefficient than Starfire.

So in theory shouldn't 100 spell power item benefit raid more if given to moonkin instead of frostmage? 100 spellpower increases raid dps by 33.333 if given to druid and 33.326 if given to frost mage.

Of course without simulation tools it's impossible to say the actual dps ups because it varies with gear etc. (moonkins get faster casts after crit etc.) but shouldn't all casters be treated equal?

Am I missing something or don't guilds/pugs understand that every caster basically benefits from spell damage equally?

Because there's more to scaling than just the co-efficient: Talents and Mana.
If you want to ignore the mana component because you don't go OOM on early game/easy fights; fine. But talents give mages much better scaling than Moonkins, turning that 33.326 into a much larger number than the 33.333 turns into.

If assuming equivalent gear, then the only difference is talents:

Starfire gets +10% damage, so you're at 36.666. There's also the crit bonus from 150 to 200%, but since we're doing a delta, Crit chance for Moonkin is 0%, meaning that doesn't factor in. You already factored in the -0.5s cast. 3% crit aura applies to mage to, so delta of 0. Nothing else modifies Starfire, so we're at 36.666

Frostbolt gets 6% improved hit chance, so 35.23. Damage Done by flat 10%. 38.75 now. +10% chance to crit, which with the Crit bonus at 200% means 10% more damage. 42.629 now.

So just from talents, not including set bonuses (Which the Boomkin wouldn't have at all), SP on a mage is 16.26% more effective than on a Boomkin. And this isn't fire, which would be even higher.

[Kazer]

Pure classes in almost every possible scenario are going to out scale and out DPS hybrids. This is why its a larger upgrade to a mage than a Moonkin Druid.

[Kersey]

...moonkin ..."

... Numbers ...

Am I missing something or don't guilds/pugs understand that every caster basically benefits from spell damage equally?

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...gregate=amount

I see your numbers and raise you the current DPS charts.

[clevin]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...gregate=amount

I see your numbers and raise you the current DPS charts.

And this holds up even if you control for item level, so it's not just "but mages do more damage because they get all the loot".

[Djaye]

Go to guild with dkp, council loot is a scam.

This. Or an ep/gp system. Either way, you earn raid credit and can spend it how ever you want, letting you prioritize certain gear before others and giving you access to any gear you want really. Just don't be a dick and grab gear from others classes that you can barely use.
Seriously though, pug are toxic af no matter what version you play, but there are tons of guild tools to balance it out.

[voidillusion]

I'll help you to undestand, you're brought to buff the other casters, combat ress, vate healers and heal from time to time. Sorry if you were mislead.

[Twdft]

Is there even a reason to min/max in classic when bosses are not really that much of an obstacle? I could understand tight guilds going for speed clears, but in those you wouldn't play boomkin in the first place.

[hulkgor]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...gregate=amount

I see your numbers and raise you the current DPS charts.

funny enough, your link has a 'meme' spec (elemental) topping 2 pure dps classes (warlock and hunter) :P

[Kaver]

Many guilds and pugs that have moonkin have mage/warlock prio on items like ToEP etc powerful items. I always ask why and they say "they do more dps, more benefit for raids."

But it contradicts with the fact that Frostbolt has coefficient of 3/3.5*0.95 = 81.4% per spellpower and Starfire has 3.5/3.5 = 100%.
So in other words Frost mage gets (1*0.814)/2.5 = 0.326 dps per spellpower before any talent modifiers while Moonkin gets (1*1)/3 = 0.333 dps per spell power before talent modifiers.
Fireball also has same coefficient than Starfire.

So in theory shouldn't 100 spell power item benefit raid more if given to moonkin instead of frostmage? 100 spellpower increases raid dps by 33.333 if given to druid and 33.326 if given to frost mage.

Of course without simulation tools it's impossible to say the actual dps ups because it varies with gear etc. (moonkins get faster casts after crit etc.) but shouldn't all casters be treated equal?

Am I missing something or don't guilds/pugs understand that every caster basically benefits from spell damage equally?

Well the best thing to increase raid dps would be to remove the Moonkin from the group and get another Mage.

[arkanon]

Go to guild with dkp, council loot is a scam.

I was on a loot council once. Yes, it was a complete scam - we all left the next day once we realised what a joke it was. Possibly some run it fairly, but this was literally "bro, shes my girlfriend, we let your girlfriend have [item] last week, so now its her turn".

"giggle giggle teehee thanks guys omg thanks so much, now i can come slightly less last on the meters!"

In wrath i watched a guild disintegrate right before my eyes over EXACTLY the same thing. I dont remember the item, but it was a trinket from memory. They begged me to tank for them (i knew two of the raiders) i said i would tank, but i was main spec boomkin. Was clear as day for everyone - posted by myself and RL at the start that i would be rolling boomy MS. Item drops, i win, LootMaster gives it to a priest, because, and i quote, "she REALLY wants that trinket though and is trying REALLY hard to get better". I glanced at the meter and didnt see her, so asked why a healer would want the trinket. "oh, shes not healing bro, shes shadow".

I wasnt in the officer Ventrillo, but suddenly people started leaving the raid. Then the guild, and then it was just screaming and yelling and everyone left. I just kinda stood there wondering wtf had just happened, then hearthed.

tldr if there is loot drama, find another guild. DKP is fucking stupid for such outdated and simple content, but, i am fortunate to play with a bunch of adults who dont really care about it. We literally roll MS/OS, and people pass on stuff all the time if its not much of an upgrade. But i am fortunate, like i said, and i realise not everyone has a group like that.

[msdos]

Is there even a reason to min/max in classic when bosses are not really that much of an obstacle? I could understand tight guilds going for speed clears, but in those you wouldn't play boomkin in the first place.

No there is no reason, I did everything in vanilla without caring about buffs or consumes basically. People these days want other people to be accountable so they make up all these fake social constructed rules. That's why you don't get into a LC guild. But also don't get into a DKP guild that's dead. Dead DKP guilds have people who have like 10,000 DKP stockpiled and the guild doesn't do anything to help new recruits, so it's completely rigged to screw over new recruits for no reason.
If your guild is bleeding members, you want DKP incentives, you don't want ultimatums.

Also when they were like "you think you do, but you don't" I think they were referring to how some specs weren't even allowed to raid, because these specs definitely DON'T. No shit, it's because they're being bullied out of the game.

[Poe]

Well the best thing to increase raid dps would be to remove the Moonkin from the group and get another Mage.

This is the real answer.

[Jurwi]

So much bad experiences with LC here, are you playing in guilds filled with 13 year olds or something? Both the retail guild I'm in and the Classic guild I'm in use LC, and it works really well in both. Loot is not siphoned to guild leaders girlfriends and other shit I read here, but it gets distributed in the way the raid group benefits of it the most. Stuff like good caster one handers are prioritized to people who have prefarmed AV offhand, clear +1 rules for weapons/rings/trinkets, etc.