Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[LDancer]

Personally, I’m not a fan of RIO but I do see where it has become a necessity for those wanting to push into higher keys.

The whole discussion seems mired down and missing the real point. That as a tool, it has become abused by lowish groups to start rejecting people waiting for that 2.5k player or higher to join them and carry them.

I have seen instances where people have been trying to get into run at their appropriate experience level 8-12+ get rejected by groups that have a pretty shitty score themselves. And this is where the hatred of io comes into play.

Telling people to do more runs and get better becomes redundant when the greater community are so reliant upon the scoring at low levels that people wanting to build their score and are of equal level to those posting the run get rejected.

I don’t know how to fix it, and I can see why this then encourages people to buy boosts.

But when the tool is being abused by gronks who have no idea and reject people with equal score to them at lower keys - it leads to these kinds of forum posts.

It’s just like seeing someone with no AOTC trying to put together a mythic raid and asking for experience and rejecting people because they’re not x/12M exp’Ed.

[callipygoustp]

I have seen instances where people have been trying to get into run at their appropriate experience level 8-12+ get rejected by groups that have a pretty shitty score themselves. And this is where the hatred of io comes into play.

I like this scenario because it exposes a big part of the issue, an issue that is targetted at raider.io but has nothing to do with raider.io: lazy people are the problem. On one side you have a person whining(assumption on the whining, but I think its safe to say) about not getting into the group they want. On the other side you have a person who is putting together the group they want. Whose the problem here?

[loras]

Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

We are witnessing Gearscore 2.0 with Raider.IO. While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole. We tend to choose players who have higher IO's than others, we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

We as a community have failed one another once again. I hope that Blizzard will step in at some point and remove Raider IO as a whole just as they did with Gearscore. Or, Blizzard will incorporate their own version of this addon into the game itself.

I wholeheartedly agree, but given how people always tend towards such systems i do not think that somehow banning it would solve matters.
The easiest way to potentially solve this might be to give PvE a rating similarly to PvP.
This allows it to be accessible by everyone (newbies and old returnees alike) as well as allowing Blizzard to tweak the system to mitigate the worst excesses (sure Blizzard's not always succesful in managing these things, but they sure as hell have a lot more experience and a better track record than random modders, also their toolset for responding extends to the game itself so they are much more potent too)

[Garymorilix]

Personally, I’m not a fan of RIO but I do see where it has become a necessity for those wanting to push into higher keys.

The whole discussion seems mired down and missing the real point. That as a tool, it has become abused by lowish groups to start rejecting people waiting for that 2.5k player or higher to join them and carry them.

I have seen instances where people have been trying to get into run at their appropriate experience level 8-12+ get rejected by groups that have a pretty shitty score themselves. And this is where the hatred of io comes into play.

Telling people to do more runs and get better becomes redundant when the greater community are so reliant upon the scoring at low levels that people wanting to build their score and are of equal level to those posting the run get rejected.

I don’t know how to fix it, and I can see why this then encourages people to buy boosts.

But when the tool is being abused by gronks who have no idea and reject people with equal score to them at lower keys - it leads to these kinds of forum posts.

It’s just like seeing someone with no AOTC trying to put together a mythic raid and asking for experience and rejecting people because they’re not x/12M exp’Ed.

Okay.
Now explain how making your own group in above case hindering you from obtaining score or doing dungeon runs.

The whole complaint about Rio loses any semblence of reason once you realize you can make your own groups for your own keys.

Nobody can reject you in our own group.
You can be the benelovent god you claim to be by inviting no-score or low-score people, hopefully an MMO champ forum user so they would sing songs about your greatness.
You will never lose your key.
You are not at the mercy of other people's judgment for climbing/pushing.

[david0925]

All of this argument against Rio still goes to the core. I'm fine with a better system but people aren't proposing one. They want group leaders to take a chance with minimal or no information. Why is that good for the game?

Vanilla dungeons were not fun when you fail and people leave. Yes, I know sometimes you get good groups, and you can make friends that way, and I think that's genuinely a cool thing, but it's not like you can't achieve the same thing with Rio.

People keep talking about these horror story about being rejected from groups, which I assume is because you play DPS and competition is fierce.

While I played, I played all 6 tanks and I pugged on 5 alts, was rarely rejected. I assume that's the case for healers. As DPS, you are dime a dozen. So "why" should the group leader take you over other 4 competitors, and why should other people be given equal chance to you by not letting group leader have any information?

People also talk about "oh, someone is getting rejected after doing all +8s from a +8 key, because someone with higher score joined". Once again, if I as a group leader have a choice between someone that completed all +8s versus someone that completed higher. Why -shouldn't- I be able to know that, and take the person with experience at a higher difficulty? This is strictly supply and demand. Way more 3 people play DPS than 1 Tank and 1 Healer, so DPS are competing against each other. That's not anyone's fault, but as a group leader I -should- have information at my disposal than randomly guess, and raider.io while far from perfect provides the most complete information at the moment.

[ydraw]

Telling people to do more runs and get better becomes redundant when the greater community are so reliant upon the scoring at low levels that people wanting to build their score and are of equal level to those posting the run get rejected.

I don’t know how to fix it, and I can see why this then encourages people to buy boosts.

You fix it by using your own key, which you can't get rejected from. Then you build your score. It's really not that difficult.

But people don't like this solution because they just want to jump straight into to a +10/+15 dungeon of their choice each week for an easy chest and chance at their best loot drop.

This is not theoretical, it's what I did when I rerolled to horde with a fresh 120 hunter, which at the time was not a meta class at all. I used my own key, starting at +2. I invited other players alts (raider.io can tell the score of people's mains, even when they apply on an alt). By the end of the 2nd day doing this my .io score was over 1000. From zero. And I had a full set of heroic raid-equivalent gear just from the drops of the dungeon I had run getting to that point.

[kaintk]

just dont do m+

m+ is just good if you want to do higher m+ to be able to do higher m+
m+is good if you raid, but if you dont have any guild to help you do m+ and raiding, why do you want to do m+ ?

so...m+ is just there to be able to do raid and higher m+

i dont do any raid or m+ so i dont need to do them, you see ?

so...yeah i o raid is good if you farm them and raid also but not good if you dont raid or do high m+

im casual and i just find it funny when casual player cry about it and call it unfair, wut ? you want to be able to do m15+ but in a casual way ? its a non sense

[tehealadin]

You fix it by using your own key, which you can't get rejected from. Then you build your score. It's really not that difficult.

.

This needs to be said more often. I remember hitting a plateau about 1.2k IO I think it was, struggled to get into pugs for keys at 12-14, 15 was just a no go. I had been mainly doing other peoples keys. So started running my own keys. Was able to break past the plateau. One of the best moves I'd made. I'd often avoided it because it was a pain having a key killer in your group kill it before it had really started, but I just learned to roll with the punches better. Sure I got a few downgrades, but on balance I got much more upgrades.

[Wuusah]

You fix it by using your own key, which you can't get rejected from. Then you build your score. It's really not that difficult.

Yeah but then nobody joins your group because somehow there are thousands of players constantly getting rejected from groups and they don't try to get into groups with other players who got rejected and made their own groups.

The rejects reject each other as well

People have no score and don't try to get into groups with other people who have no score. This is the issue.

[T-34]

Yeah but then nobody joins your group because somehow there are thousands of players constantly getting rejected from groups and they don't try to get into groups with other players who got rejected and made their own groups.

The rejects reject each other as well

People have no score and don't try to get into groups with other people who have no score. This is the issue.

Exactly, a certain subset of WoW-players are unwilling to join forces with players of the same experience and skill, and keep doing everything to "force" people of higher experience and skill to play with the = to carry them.

If that certain subset of players, which there are plenty of in this thread, just spent 25% of the time and energy they spend on QQ-ing about the "unfairness of Raider.io" on pugging their own keys, then they would have had their key-master a long time ago.

[Kaver]

Yeah but then nobody joins your group because somehow there are thousands of players constantly getting rejected from groups and they don't try to get into groups with other players who got rejected and made their own groups.

The rejects reject each other as well

People have no score and don't try to get into groups with other people who have no score. This is the issue.

Exactly. And then we are back to the entitlement of people wanting to get carried. They just don't want to pay for the carry.

The main reason why raider.io is not an issue at all is that people have their own keys. They don't have to join other peoples groups because they can make their own. Yes, it will take some time but that's the case for everyone. That's an issue of the dps:tank ratio in the game and has nothing to do with Rio.

[Bloodyleech]

Exactly, a certain subset of WoW-players are unwilling to join forces with players of the same experience and skill, and keep doing everything to "force" people of higher experience and skill to play with the = to carry them.

If that certain subset of players, which there are plenty of in this thread, just spent 25% of the time and energy they spend on QQ-ing about the "unfairness of Raider.io" on pugging their own keys, then they would have had their key-master a long time ago.

Yeah, because they think skillwise they are in the upper 10% (15+ runner). It's easier to cry about not able to join 15s (unjustified!!!111) than realising and accepting that they are indeed not experienced enough.

[Orwell7]

On one hand, I did +15s at 8.3 launch in okay-ish gear from HC and Mythic EP on all my alts. It was easy.
Then a few weeks pass, raid opens, I don't have that much time for my alts... and then suddenly I cannot get into groups. My score is low, but I did what is needed for the max level weekly rewards ALL THROUGH THE EXPANSION. And suddenly it is not enough.

On the other hand, making my own groups, inviting high r.io players and just breeze through a few low level ones and THEN doing my own +15 was a new experience, because I was a "pls invite me to pugs" type. No longer. Making your groups is fun in itself.
On one day I am tired and want to get shit done? OK, just invite the meta.
On other days where I'm curious about non-meta specs I invite only those and damn those people are grateful! I had more success with non-meta folk than meta-dwellers who rage and quit on the first mistake. Of course there were clueless people with off-meta classes too, but at least they didn't quit.

And this is where "fun" comes into play: do you play for the rewards, or do you play for fun?
Is this game a checklist for you? Are the rewards just a tool for feeling more powerful, or loot is your only endgame?

[goldlock]

On one hand, I did +15s at 8.3 launch in okay-ish gear from HC and Mythic EP on all my alts. It was easy.
Then a few weeks pass, raid opens, I don't have that much time for my alts... and then suddenly I cannot get into groups. My score is low, but I did what is needed for the max level weekly rewards ALL THROUGH THE EXPANSION. And suddenly it is not enough.

On the other hand, making my own groups, inviting high r.io players and just breeze through a few low level ones and THEN doing my own +15 was a new experience, because I was a "pls invite me to pugs" type. No longer. Making your groups is fun in itself.
On one day I am tired and want to get shit done? OK, just invite the meta.
On other days where I'm curious about non-meta specs I invite only those and damn those people are grateful! I had more success with non-meta folk than meta-dwellers who rage and quit on the first mistake. Of course there were clueless people with off-meta classes too, but at least they didn't quit.

And this is where "fun" comes into play: do you play for the rewards, or do you play for fun?
Is this game a checklist for you? Are the rewards just a tool for feeling more powerful, or loot is your only endgame?

I think mythic+ falls into the trap of having loot that simply is to good for that it is with the weekly chest. Mythic raiders and even some heroic raiders want nothing more then to breeze through their weekly with minimal effort because the content really doesn't matter to them ( I was in this boat till I decided to sell carries and once i got my rating to join a community I never went past a 16 ever again). Another group is desperately trying to get loot far beyond what they should be getting from repetitively easy content compared to what they would usually have to do. You can argue the first few mythic bosses are on par with a mythic+ 15 but it drastically climbs in difficulty beyond that as you go on.

Overall mythic plus has always been in a weird spot.

[Wuusah]

On one hand, I did +15s at 8.3 launch in okay-ish gear from HC and Mythic EP on all my alts. It was easy.
Then a few weeks pass, raid opens, I don't have that much time for my alts... and then suddenly I cannot get into groups. My score is low, but I did what is needed for the max level weekly rewards ALL THROUGH THE EXPANSION. And suddenly it is not enough.

It’s not enough because you are not living in a vacuum. Never forget that you are competing with others for those spots. You don’t get declined because you’re not good enough for the position. You get declined because there are dozens of other players who have a better resumé.

In pug world you are always in competition with others. If you don’t like that fact, then play with a guild or friends who want to play with you, the person, not you, the character.

[mrhUK]

The problem is less the addon and more how people use it. It's the ridiculous requirements people request, you need to be geared and experienced at a much higher level than what you're trying to join to even stand a chance of being invited as a DPS.

[Radaney]

I always find it funny when people say gearscore was bad.

When we still have gearscore and somehow it isn't bad anymore.

[Naville]

That's because today you just have to smash some random mob to get plenty of purples.

People complained about gearscore when Ulduar PUGs where asking for heroic ICC geared players.
Now they complain because +15 PUGs seek 2500+ io score players.

Just today I listed a +16 key, and got some applies with 475-476 gear and sub-1000 score. Obviously, they didn't have to run +15s to get their gear. So they won't complain about ilvl, even if lots of players are stupidly asking 475 as a minimum to sign in their +15 keys.

[Alroxas]

This is the equivalent of wanting a company to hire every person who applied without looking at their resume or doing a background check.

Instead what you get is that everybody wants 5+ years of work experience but nobody wants to take a chance on a fresh grad.

[Eosia]

Instead what you get is that everybody wants 5+ years of work experience but nobody wants to take a chance on a fresh grad.

But even that "fresh grad" has to show the company that they can offer them something.