Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Very rare pepe]

Why should character progression by way of more challenging endgame content be gatekept by community members using a 3rd-party tool?

Make your own group if you don't want to go by their party's rules.

[T-34]

Why should character progression by way of more challenging endgame content be gatekept by community members using a 3rd-party tool?

Make your own group and nobody can "gatekeep" you from doing anything.

[Very rare pepe]

When I was playing I just made my own M+ groups. If anyone mentioned raider.io I totally disregarded them.

No time for sweaty try-hard gatekeepers.

Good for you, at least someone who isn't fond of raider.io gets it.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

When I was playing I just made my own M+ groups. If anyone mentioned raider.io I totally disregarded them.

No time for sweaty try-hard gatekeepers.

and that's how you handle such a situation. The problem is many people are too lazy or scared to build their own groups it seems.
There is no right or wrong or good or bad here. People have different goals and nobody can blame them for that. Some want to only do a weekly key,
some want to push as high as it goes, some dont mind a chill run, some want to push the times etc etc...
And considering this actually EVERYONE can benefit from addons/sites like r.io

[willtron]

That "argument" is one of the many that bad players use to try to guilt-shame more competent players in to carry them.
Isn't it funny that the better you get at the game your gear the easier you have to find others to play with?

My time is at least as valuable as yours and I won't let myself be guilt-shamed in to carrying people.

Fixed that for you.

[VinceVega]

Fixed that for you.

Doesn't make it true. Gear helpes. Your survive harder attacks. You can fail more without dying and you make more baseline damage/healing.
But no matter what gear you have without experience you are useless. But good experience can offset bad gear on the other hand.

[Lubefist]

Fixed that for you.

Doesn't matter what gear you have if you don't know the mechanics properly you will fuck up peoples key. Gear matters but you can't just cruise control through mechanics in higher keys.

[Zeusy]

Complaining about RaiderIO is so weird. Push your own key if you don't like it. People don't like to risk their key on people who have nothing to show they won't break the key.

I started out disliking raiderIO and thinking how unfair it is that I know I can perform well but still was declined. Throughout 8.3 I quickly realized once I had higher IO, almost ANYTIME I took someone who was sub 1500-1700 IO for anything over a 12-13, they would really do poorly and be the ones putting the group at risk for not timing. Now I reject most people who don't have atleast 2K io for anything 15+. It is nothing personal, it is not toxic. I want to get my key done smoothly and not join a pug to progress through content that has been in the game for 2 years now.

If I wanted to progress or learn I would look for a set group of 5-8 people who I can comfortably learn in. Pugging is not to troll around and learn. Its to quickly join, get it done, and move on with your day.

If you wanted to complain about class bias thats something I'm down for talking. I was trying to join a kings rest 11 with a 2200 IO 478 lock, and my lock who had 1500 IO and 467 ilvl (main io 2700), and they rejected us and said no locks, good luck. (we were also 10/12M, thats raiding but still shows we aren't super noob).

We found our own kings rest 11 key and +2d it with such ease it was funny.

[Wuusah]

Fixed that for you.

this really just shows how ignorant you are. Nobody cares about your gear in pugs. It's never the first thing people ask about. What people want to know is your experience. What's your rio score? What's your raid progress? What's your current pvp rating? That's what people care about.

[crakerjack]

Stop saying this bullsh*t. Of course it has. A player with a rio score of 3k will most likely be better than player with a rio score of 1k. Not always, but most of the times.

- - - Updated - - -



But that's it. Then you're not playing M+ because you enjoy it. You're only doing it for the loot. And I don't want to play with people like you. So I thank god for Rio so I can avoid you.

So you're telling me it records individual performance? I'd like to see where it shows DPS, overall damage, interrupts and CC. Please, show me where raider io records that data. As far as I'm concerned, it takes the score your team achieved and applies it to your "personal" score. The system doesn't show any personal data, just a team score based on key level and how fast you completed it. That's vague.

And what's with the assumptions that I don't enjoy keystones? If I didn't, I wouldn't do them. And yes, loot is a big reason for all of us, including myself even do keystones. If you didn't get loot from keystones, I can bet you less people would do it. Why are you attacking me instead of defending io? If it's such a glamorous system, why does it fail to record individual performance? Your score is literally based off of a team performance.

[VinceVega]

So you're telling me it records individual performance? I'd like to see where it shows DPS, overall damage, interrupts and CC. Please, show me where raider io records that data. As far as I'm concerned, it takes the score your team achieved and applies it to your "personal" score. The system doesn't show any personal data, just a team score based on key level and how fast you completed it. That's vague.

And what's with the assumptions that I don't enjoy keystones? If I didn't, I wouldn't do them. And yes, loot is a big reason for all of us, including myself even do keystones. If you didn't get loot from keystones, I can bet you less people would do it. Why are you attacking me instead of defending io? If it's such a glamorous system, why does it fail to record individual performance? Your score is literally based off of a team performance.

Well yeah. It is a team effort after all. Is it flawless? No. For exactly the reasons you listed. But still better than just blindly picking people. And every key above 15 is just for the hell of it not for gear. Because you have nothing to gain from it. Also the reasons why many pugs above 15 abort the key if it will not be in time anymore.

[crakerjack]

Complaining about RaiderIO is so weird. Push your own key if you don't like it. People don't like to risk their key on people who have nothing to show they won't break the key.

I started out disliking raiderIO and thinking how unfair it is that I know I can perform well but still was declined. Throughout 8.3 I quickly realized once I had higher IO, almost ANYTIME I took someone who was sub 1500-1700 IO for anything over a 12-13, they would really do poorly and be the ones putting the group at risk for not timing. Now I reject most people who don't have atleast 2K io for anything 15+. It is nothing personal, it is not toxic. I want to get my key done smoothly and not join a pug to progress through content that has been in the game for 2 years now.

If I wanted to progress or learn I would look for a set group of 5-8 people who I can comfortably learn in. Pugging is not to troll around and learn. Its to quickly join, get it done, and move on with your day.

If you wanted to complain about class bias thats something I'm down for talking. I was trying to join a kings rest 11 with a 2200 IO 478 lock, and my lock who had 1500 IO and 467 ilvl (main io 2700), and they rejected us and said no locks, good luck. (we were also 10/12M, thats raiding but still shows we aren't super noob).

We found our own kings rest 11 key and +2d it with such ease it was funny.

That's the issue, that you can have someone with a qualified score apply to your key and you are jaded based on prior experiences. The system is flawed because the score doesn't accurately depict how good the player is. Like you just said, you won't invite people with a 1500-1700 score to a simple 12-13+ key because they've been bad. Guess what? a 1500-1700 io score is what you get when you've completed every dungeon with a +15 key. The system has made you so jaded that you will only accept overqualified people. You have no proof or evidence to support that the 1500-1700 io player is good/bad, but you can infer that if someone has a much higher score, they must be better. That means people are gaming the system by buying carries and inflating the io score.

That sounds like a flawed system that could drastically be improved.

[Wuusah]

So you're telling me it records individual performance? I'd like to see where it shows DPS, overall damage, interrupts and CC. Please, show me where raider io records that data. As far as I'm concerned, it takes the score your team achieved and applies it to your "personal" score. The system doesn't show any personal data, just a team score based on key level and how fast you completed it. That's vague.

And what's with the assumptions that I don't enjoy keystones? If I didn't, I wouldn't do them. And yes, loot is a big reason for all of us, including myself even do keystones. If you didn't get loot from keystones, I can bet you less people would do it. Why are you attacking me instead of defending io? If it's such a glamorous system, why does it fail to record individual performance? Your score is literally based off of a team performance.

Isn't that always the case? Beating raids is a team effort. Getting gladi is a team effort. Beating dungeons is a team effort. And it all gives you an achievement, title, mount, rio score, pvp rating, etc. I don't really get your point here.

edit:

That's the issue, that you can have someone with a qualified score apply to your key and you are jaded based on prior experiences. The system is flawed because the score doesn't accurately depict how good the player is. Like you just said, you won't invite people with a 1500-1700 score to a simple 12-13+ key because they've been bad. Guess what? a 1500-1700 io score is what you get when you've completed every dungeon with a +15 key. The system has made you so jaded that you will only accept overqualified people. You have no proof or evidence to support that the 1500-1700 io player is good/bad, but you can infer that if someone has a much higher score, they must be better. That means people are gaming the system by buying carries and inflating the io score.

That sounds like a flawed system that could drastically be improved.

completing every dungeon on +15 gives you pretty much exactly 2k. The person you quoted doesn't want overqualified people but qualified people for a "farm run", not a "progress run".

[crakerjack]

Well yeah. It is a team effort after all. Is it flawless? No. For exactly the reasons you listed. But still better than just blindly picking people. And every key above 15 is just for the hell of it not for gear. Because you have nothing to gain from it. Also the reasons why many pugs above 15 abort the key if it will not be in time anymore.

All I'm getting at is that there's better options out there. But because raider io is mainstreamed and so commonly used, it's the only measurement some people use. I just wish they'd add more to raider io so that it could record individual performance alongside what it does already. That way you could look at someones score and then look at how well they perform individually and go from there. Because as it is, all we have is a team score to reflect on.

[ID811717]

So I've been fortunate to have some nice guildies give me a shot at 15's and we +1, +2'd them and I wasn't the lowest dps. I only have 2-3 15's done total this season, but someone looking at my score would likely assume I paid for a carry. They don't see that I tally up 25+ interrupts. They don't see that I have over a minute in CC on mobs from capacitor totem and sundering. There's so much unknown and unseen that raider io doesn't record and it's upsetting that people can be so content with it.

I shouldn't have to grind some my score up. Raider io should record how well I perform in dungeons on an individual level and record that data. Using a team score to reflect an individual score is by far, the most stupid concept I've ever seen. It's on the same level as gear score as OP mentioned. Unfortunately there isn't much else out there other than warcraftlogs, but people can't be bothered to run warcraftlogs each time they do a dungeon.

You describe a situation where a mechanically skilled player gets invited into a "high" (for them) key, then does good DPS and good control. But that does not tell me much. Raider.io is primarily meant to show experience, not skills. I will happily assume you (and many other players) are mechanically skilled. What raider.io tells me is: which of the queued players also have enough experience to know what exactly and when needs to be focused or controlled (along with all the standard routes, tactics, and dangerous situations to avoid).

Raider.io shows experience (only). That sometimes correlates with skills (you don't get to play +30s if you are really bad), but that's besides the point.
WarcraftLogs can be used to also check other aspects of your gameplay, but none of that will help you if you don't know key-level appropriate information about the specific dungeon.

You've missed the point I was making: A player with limited play time AND no group support (whether it's a guild or a M+ community or M+ friends) has an incredibly difficult progression to make in M+. And it gets worse if the player starts after the launch of a season because they don't have the benefit of a pre-existing season's score.

And this is due to how r.io is currently being used by the community. It's not that r.io is bad but if you're in a disadvantaged state (e.g. Limited play time, no group support, no previous season r.io score) then it gets worse for you as the player. It's not impossible to overcome as you pointed out but it's no where near a 10 hours and I can be done as a previous poster commented.

This is true for everyone and always. You are always behind, no matter how hard you try. That's the system.

A player who timed all +24s will struggle to get invited into +25s (and especially +26s) because there are always people with more experience who will sign up and get accepted instead of you. If anything, you being stuck below +15 makes it (in comparison) much easier for you to move forward, because at some point everyone accumulates enough gear to compensate for the lack of their tactical knowledge at these key levels.

The logic behind something like RaiderIO is extremely important to WoW. When you build a team for your own key, you want to make sure you have the best chance of timing it. So you will build the best team you can. Using RaiderIO to determine the overall quality of a player is pretty fair up to say +18s. It gives a decent starting point.

Actually, it's the other way around. Right now, you can time all +18s (actually all +20s/+21s) just by being mechanically skilled, doing high group DPS and ignoring most of the interrupts/mechanics (in the worst case, that will also require high HPS to compensate). The experience becomes important once you start playing key levels that out-scale your gear quality, forcing you to learn how to play all the mechanics properly.

Again, the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill. How can you tell if someone performs well in a +14? Because their GROUP score says so?

Yeah, it's not really meant to show the skills. Just the experience.

the score is not intended to show skill. It shows experience. There is a difference. You don't look at rio to see how skilled a player is. You look at rio to see how experienced a player is. You can be the best player in the world with godlike skill, but if you don't know the dungeon you WILL fail. Not just maybe. Definitely. You will fail. If you skip ahead and do a +15 with no experience in that dungeon, then you WILL fail. You will be a liability to the group. No matter how godlike your skill is. You need experience more than anything else. Show that you have experience and people will take you in their groups.

QFT

[crakerjack]

Isn't that always the case? Beating raids is a team effort. Getting gladi is a team effort. Beating dungeons is a team effort. And it all gives you an achievement, title, mount, rio score, pvp rating, etc. I don't really get your point here.

edit:



completing every dungeon on +15 gives you pretty much exactly 2k. The person you quoted doesn't want overqualified people but qualified people for a "farm run", not a "progress run".

Well Arena technically has a personal mmr which requires an individual to grind up and a team mmr. So if someones personal rating is high, chances are they're good. Raider io pretty much neglects the personal rating and focuses on the group rating.

As for mythic raiding, yes it's a team effort, but guess what? If you're dying to mechanics and not pulling enough dps, you get benched for someone else who performs better. Raider io is like looking at your last mythic kill and saying "yea, he killed that boss" instead of looking at how much dmg they did and whether or not they did mechanics.

[Kaver]

So you're telling me it records individual performance? I'd like to see where it shows DPS, overall damage, interrupts and CC. Please, show me where raider io records that data. As far as I'm concerned, it takes the score your team achieved and applies it to your "personal" score. The system doesn't show any personal data, just a team score based on key level and how fast you completed it. That's vague.

And what's with the assumptions that I don't enjoy keystones? If I didn't, I wouldn't do them. And yes, loot is a big reason for all of us, including myself even do keystones. If you didn't get loot from keystones, I can bet you less people would do it. Why are you attacking me instead of defending io? If it's such a glamorous system, why does it fail to record individual performance? Your score is literally based off of a team performance.

You said "the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill". That's not true at all. You're right that it doesn't directly measure personal skill, but it still reflects it. A person with a high RIO score is much more likely to be a good player than a person with a low RIO score. Especially if you combine it with the 'number of completed keys' stat.

If there are dungeons that you don't even want to run just for a few times simply because they don't provide you any loot then you cannot enjoy the content itself very much. You only have to complete a dungeon ONE TIME on a high key to get a good RIO score. So your "problem" is completely unvalid. I want to play with people that enjoy pushing keys and that enjoy doing the content because they think it's fun. I want to run with people that get's reward by the accomplishment of finishing a high key and that doesn't need loot to feel rewarded. I use RIO to find those people. And I use RIO to avoid people like you who are mainly driven by loot. People who play for loot are often the toxic ones.

[VinceVega]

All I'm getting at is that there's better options out there. But because raider io is mainstreamed and so commonly used, it's the only measurement some people use. I just wish they'd add more to raider io so that it could record individual performance alongside what it does already. That way you could look at someones score and then look at how well they perform individually and go from there. Because as it is, all we have is a team score to reflect on.

But that on the other hand would f over new and returning players as they have to learn the game again. So the statistic would be heavily favoured towards people playing cosistently. I don't think it would be a favour for the players wanting to get further up... more like another metric i can judge someone.

[crakerjack]

You said "the score has ZERO reflection on personal skill". That's not true at all. You're right that it doesn't directly measure personal skill, but it still reflects it. A person with a high RIO score is much more likely to be a good player than a person with a low RIO score. Especially if you combine it with the 'number of completed keys' stat.

If there are dungeons that you don't even want to run just for a few times simply because they don't provide you any loot then you cannot enjoy the content itself very much. I want to play with people that enjoy pushing keys and that enjoy doing the content because they think it's fun. I want to run with people that get's reward by the accomplishment of finishing a high key and that doesn't need loot to feel rewarded. I use RIO to find those people. And I use RIO to avoid people like you who are mainly driven by loot. People who play for loot are often the toxic ones.

Yea, it still has zero reflection on personal skill. You can't look at a score and definitely know how good a player is, you just can't. You can assume, speculate and hope, but that still doesn't mean much. Just look at the guy who posted earlier saying he won't accept people with a 1500-1700 io score for 12-13+ keys, if that doesn't seem like an issue, then I think you're just biased.

When I play, the number one most important thing to me is out performing those around me. Not only do I want to be top damage overall, but I want to interrupt more than anyone else. I want to CC mobs with capacitor totem and sundering. I also consider timing it so that I can interrupt multiple mobs like the shield casting lizards in TD. Sometimes I'll let them cast and then quickly purge their bubbles. Nothing is more important to me than performing to the best of my ability and for the most part, I'm usually the best person in the keys I do.

But guess what, raider io doesn't record any of that. It doesn't take any skill into account. Like others mentioned, its just a reflection on experience, not skill. So if you want to avoid players like me based on assumptions you created in your head, go for it.

[WhirlwindTV]

The problem is that if raider.io gets removed somehow, something else will take its place. You need something to be able to gauge a random person's capabilities. That is the whole purpose that things like ELO systems exist in MOBAs and now shooters. No one wants to play with terrible players and while raider io and gearscore were/are far from perfect, it is better than nothing at all.

Indeed it does promote a little elitism, but when you have the addon installed and put up a +15 group, just sit there and wait 5 minutes for all the almost immediate applicants and count how many have an IO of under 1200. That is basically a full roster of average completion of nothing higher than 11s. I'm talking about NOW, as of the END OF THE EXPANSION, the amount of people that have never timed a 15. Its going to be at least 1/3 of the people applying. The reason for this is that it is known that 15 is where you get the end box and everyone wants the end box, so if they can slip into a group that'll stay to completion then it doesn't matter if they're good or not. No one wants to have to carry people in content. When I do a +15, I want it to just go smoothly, and if there was no system whatsoever for looking up a person's experience then i'm picking a group purely based on their class/specs and rolling the dice on if they're good or not. And if they're NOT good and that was your key that then dropped out of the 15, then you gotta rely on getting in someone else's or having to do an extra dungeon to get it back up.

There are far more people under a certain skill range than there are those capable. That is just facts and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that per say. But there needs to be some way to identify skill sets to not weigh other people down. I can't stand playing random BGs because there is no hidden system and so it is completely random if i'll be paired with people of similar gear not to even mention experience. It ruins my play experience to be in a non-competitive battleground because half or more of my team are just flat out bad at PvP or have such low gear because they're trying to gear that character through BG reward drops. If this system was in place for m+ too then i'd likely never do them because i'd never want to risk wasting 25 minutes of my time in an attempt. People can talk about only running with guilds and such all they like but I play the game mostly for PvP. I never cared about trying to find some guild until I wanted to get some raid gear. Without the necessity to play PvE to get gear for PvP because of the awful PvP itemization I wouldn't need to have a guild and would just play PvP with those I found through LFG and added to friends lists.

Also, raider io and other systems like that don't stop class/spec elitism anyways. People are more often judged on that before their IO. Enhancement Shaman has been trash in M+ until we got propped up in S4 because of corruptions, but I remember those first 3 seasons the tooth pulling experience that was trying to get my +10 done. 95% of the time was spent in LFG just trying to get the damn invite, and i'd have to get past the "what spec are you" lines before they even looked at my IO. It was at the point where I'd have to grind shittier dungeons just to get the IO to even be considered because without a decent IO if I COULD get past the spec thing theyd then see the IO instead of noticing in my recent runs section that my last 4 dungeons were timed 10's.

So yeah the system isn't close to perfect, but it is far better than nothing and blizzard's personal implementation of a metric, Proving Grounds, was a joke.