Gear scaling in mythic raids

[Trend]

Top guilds spending millions of gold in the world first race has been a problem long before corruptions were introduced

LOL, ok. Oooh, millions of gold! Spending an irrelevant amount that can be made up in a few sales to maximize to the extreme for a world first race isn't a problem.

It's what I said before (because you have a bad idea), you're clutching at straw trying to come up with "problems" to justify your "solution".

But at least you have admitted to the fact that world first is about spending gold.

No I haven't. Those are your words and thoughts, not mine. Guessing you're just trying to twist the meaning of "about" to hold on to your continued attempt to justify your outlandish theory, repeated again here.

It does not matter. The suggested change is dumb and has a 0% chance of being implemented. Keep arguing away but I doubt anyone will cooperate with your desire for an echo chamber.

[ey b0ss]

As long as it would kill boosting , why not.

[Marrilaife]

Let me phrase it differently: would you still raid mythic in bfa if you could get max available ilvl gear from regular 5m dungeons?

I think this idea makes as much sense as mailing people a lootbox of gear every day just because they stay subbed.

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As long as it would kill boosting , why not.

The only thing that can kill boosting is people stop being lazy and actually work for their gear / achievement instead of wanting their ass carried. Which will never happen because laziness is a common human trait.

Demand drives the supply, if people weren't interested in buying boosts the market would die off.

[Tziva]

Something like this has a ton of negative repercussions or considerations without any real positive. One: it removes the gear treadmill that is motivation for a lot of players and a core component of RPGs. It also removes repeatability, which lowers player engagement even more. It takes away the soft nerf of improving gear which serves to push along all those raids that aren't top tier players to continue to make progress and overcome walls, forcing Blizzard to either implement hard nerfs or just stop catering to those players (who represent the majority of mythic raiders).

For what gain? A level playing field? World first guilds are already doing all they can to prep for the race, so they're probably already starting out in a similar place for each other. Arbitrary challenge? If people want that they can get it in the early weeks of a tier, or artificially by setting low gear requirements like those raids that used to run in all blues back in the day.

I can't really think of any reason why this would be a good idea but multitudes of reasons why it is a bad one.

[Relapses]

As long as it would kill boosting , why not.

It wouldn't even kill boosting. People boosted CModes back in MoP and WoD. You can't even find a group to level from 20-60 in Classic because boosting is so prevalent and the game isn't generating new players. As long as gold exists, boosting will exist. This "solution" tries to solve an unsolvable problem with a suggestion so polarizing it would effectively dismantle the very thing they're trying to defend. It's a tremendously terrible idea from every angle and totally indefensible to anybody who enjoys competitive raiding in WoW.

[kenn9530]

What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops? (Think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)

You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how stronk you could get.

Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.

Would you still raid mythic?
Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

Difficulty would obviously have to be balanced around this gear cap, but still harder than heroic and with added mechanics.

Main point in mythic raiding is its usually a little harder on the next tier so you need those upgrades to progress, only reason to raid is mounts/achievements and improving your character so it would kill raiding completely for just about most guilds.

[Tziva]

Regardless of whether this would stop it, boosting isn't a problem that actually negative impacts other players; it's not something that needs "solved," especially if the solution is detrimental to regular players.

The only context in which you are personally negatively impacted by someone boosted is if they come into your raid under the false perception of skill and experience and drag the team down to the point where your success is compromised. This is easily solved by requiring a few parses before invite, which is already something many (most?) mythic guilds look for anyway.

The rest of the boosting complaints is just people being mad because of perceived unfairness when they compare themselves to others. This can be "solved" by one choosing to stop giving a fuck what other players do and focus on their own gaming experience. What some other guy has or does doesn't actually impact you in any tangible way. Your day to day experience is going to be exactly the same whether some rando bought a boost or not.

Definitely this is not the kind of problem where it is worth gutting core game systems and negatively impacting other players in order to address.

[goldlock]

LOL, ok. Oooh, millions of gold! Spending an irrelevant amount that can be made up in a few sales to maximize to the extreme for a world first race isn't a problem.

It's what I said before (because you have a bad idea), you're clutching at straw trying to come up with "problems" to justify your "solution".



No I haven't. Those are your words and thoughts, not mine. Guessing you're just trying to twist the meaning of "about" to hold on to your continued attempt to justify your outlandish theory, repeated again here.

It does not matter. The suggested change is dumb and has a 0% chance of being implemented. Keep arguing away but I doubt anyone will cooperate with your desire for an echo chamber.

World first is about loot. It is rare that limit or method ever had the rooster consisting of the best players of their class. While a extremely high level of play is required for world first it mostly comes down to how much gear you can acquire. This current tier was the worst offender of any other as good corruptions made or broke your team also making alt runs all the more important to boost mains.

The idea they have is dumb but they accidentally did stumble upon a annoying fact about the progression race though any solution would be worse then the problem

[Snuffleupagus]

One: it removes the gear treadmill that is motivation for a lot of players and a core component of RPGs.

That is basically an admission that the game only exists for raiding and that the devs have lost sight of what makes an MMO.

It would be better than Mythic content wasn't "farm" content and had exclusive skins and mounts but didn't elevate your power levels to Super Saiyan 3.

[Jastall]

World first is about loot. It is rare that limit or method ever had the rooster consisting of the best players of their class. While a extremely high level of play is required for world first it mostly comes down to how much gear you can acquire. This current tier was the worst offender of any other as good corruptions made or broke your team also making alt runs all the more important to boost mains.

The idea they have is dumb but they accidentally did stumble upon a annoying fact about the progression race though any solution would be worse then the problem

It's a huge mix of gear, time spent at your computer after a tier is released, good raid leading, general dedication, and pure skill. There's a reason even top 100 guilds take a lot more time to kill the endboss than the top dogs and have something like a 10 ilvl advantage over them when they do so, because gear's only a part of the equation, only it is the sole part that can be brute forced by playing more, buying BoEs and spamming alt runs and/or M+ thus it has more visibility.

And yes, any solution is indeed worse than the problem. I wouldn't even call it a problem, it affects literally the 1% of the 1%, the people who by their very nature as those wanting their world first must accept to do anything and everything required of them for the tiniest possible advantage in the race. Albeit I do wonder if loot being rarer in Shadowlands will discourage these tendencies, or on the contrary encourage them to spam M+ forevermore to get that sweet, sweet quality loot.

[OokOok]

Blizzard did it right with ICC, instead of worrying about scaling fights towards gear and nerfing fights they should just add a 5% buff every month

[Tziva]

That is basically an admission that the game only exists for raiding and that the devs have lost sight of what makes an MMO.

No it's not. It's an admission that character progression, of which gear makes up a huge component once levels are capped, is a core part of RPG game design, including WoW's. If this was another game and end-game wasn't designed around gear progression in place of level progression than it might make more sense, but it's not.

That progression and gear treadmill can take place on any difficulty tier and content type. It isn't unique to mythic raiding, nor does it have to be. But removing it from mythic raiding only would remove an important aspect of the game for those who do play on that tier, and for literally no positives.

Blizzard did it right with ICC, instead of worrying about scaling fights towards gear and nerfing fights they should just add a 5% buff every month

I don't think that's a particularly great example since ICC had both. It's not an either/or situation. Hardmode (25man heroic, the equivalent of what would be mythic now) dropped higher ilvl loot than regular 25man which dropped better than 10man. Gearing up as they moved through the fights still provided the same soft nerfs to the fight difficulty, just as mythic raiding does today.

Blizz just also implemented a 5% buff too, but probably because it was a very long tier and why not push as many raiders through as possible. IIRC it's not the only tier they've done stuff like that with either.

[Twdft]

Gear is an organic nerf to the raid. Anyone advocating for its removal should answer how to tune the raid then. There is a gigantic difference in skill between world rank 1 and 10. Between 10 and 100. Between 100 and 1000. If you tune the raid to rank 1 skill it can't be beaten by rank 10. If you tune it to rank 10 it can't be beaten by 100 but also will be a pushover for the world first race.

So how do you want to tune it and also how do you want the nerfs happen if gear doesn't do the job anymore?

[Nnyco]

Challenge modes and proving grounds proven how terrible capped ilvls are.

[goldlock]

It's a huge mix of gear, time spent at your computer after a tier is released, good raid leading, general dedication, and pure skill. There's a reason even top 100 guilds take a lot more time to kill the endboss than the top dogs and have something like a 10 ilvl advantage over them when they do so, because gear's only a part of the equation, only it is the sole part that can be brute forced by playing more, buying BoEs and spamming alt runs and/or M+ thus it has more visibility.

And yes, any solution is indeed worse than the problem. I wouldn't even call it a problem, it affects literally the 1% of the 1%, the people who by their very nature as those wanting their world first must accept to do anything and everything required of them for the tiniest possible advantage in the race. Albeit I do wonder if loot being rarer in Shadowlands will discourage these tendencies, or on the contrary encourage them to spam M+ forevermore to get that sweet, sweet quality loot.

Mostly agree though most top 100 guilds have less ilv or in the case of this tier weaker corruptions I don't think people really understand how absurdly geared world first players are. Most of them started mythic progression with a 475ish ilv.

It is why I always cringe a bit when people talk about world first as a standard. Those people play over a hundred hours a week during progression and unlike the average try hard bad player every second is used constructively.

[Dahij]

What would the mythic raiding scene look like if gear was capped somewhere around the base level of heroic raid drops? (Think challenge mode of MoP / WoD)

You could farm heroic/mythic to max your gear slots, but there would be a hard cap to how stronk you could get.

Assuming same strength of mythic raid drops as today, but that they would only make you stronger outside of mythic raids, and would in no way help towards completing the mythic raid, save for optimal secondary stats and trinnet effects.

Would you still raid mythic?
Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

Difficulty would obviously have to be balanced around this gear cap, but still harder than heroic and with added mechanics.

That would be a nerf to mythic raids for the top guilds and a buff for the rest. Top guilds would clear them easier while the rest would struggle big time.

[Accendor]

Would you still raid mythic?
Would you have kept farming it for the mounts, cosmetics and imba gear for mythic+ pushing?

No, would instantly stop doing it. The same is true for every other content in the game too. Not progressing my character = not interested.

I have hundreds of mounts, I do not need more.

[Tronski]

No, would instantly stop doing it. The same is true for every other content in the game too. Not progressing my character = not interested.

I have hundreds of mounts, I do not need more.

That's quite frankly a bit sad. I obviously get why people enjoy WoW, but I'm having a real hard time understanding people who only enjoy WoW when they can get a piece of gear they then can use to get a new piece of gear until they can't enjoy it anymore because there is no more gear to get.

What happened to just having fun and enjoying the game and community?

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That would be a nerf to mythic raids for the top guilds and a buff for the rest. Top guilds would clear them easier while the rest would struggle big time.

But is that really any different from now? Top guilds only struggle for a week anyway.

[Hellobolis]

if gear was capped at heroic ilvl? (and presumably no content nerfs/player buffs partway through the tier?)

only the top 100 guilds would clear the raid
the top 1000 would get a around halfway
everybody else would be stuck on the first few bosses

raiding would then die after 2 tiers of this.

[SirReal]

Short answer: no.

So let me translate this post for those who can only see very badly thought out idea.

OP basically means that gear should not matter for mythic raiding by basically removing loot from mythic raids.
The reason why he wants to do this is to lower the demand for BoE gear and boosts.
Why? Good question.

Bad idea, yes. Bad translator, yes. He actually said the raids would still drop gear, but their power would only be fully realized outside of raids. Something like an ilvl/powerlevel cap inside mythic raids.

Again, yes it's a bad idea. Gear and power have always been core components of this game.

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Gear is an organic nerf to the raid. Anyone advocating for its removal should answer how to tune the raid then. There is a gigantic difference in skill between world rank 1 and 10. Between 10 and 100. Between 100 and 1000. If you tune the raid to rank 1 skill it can't be beaten by rank 10. If you tune it to rank 10 it can't be beaten by 100 but also will be a pushover for the world first race.

So how do you want to tune it and also how do you want the nerfs happen if gear doesn't do the job anymore?

This is the answer. Errr......This is the way.

/thread