Blizzard are to blame for the meta.

[Kaver]

The class design in BFA have been incredibly unbalanced when it comes to Utility in Dungeons. This is Blizzards fault. They have given some classes tools which are extremely strong in dungeons while others got nothing. How do they expect to create good balance between classes with this design.

There are many examples of this. One is: why play with a fury warrior when you can play with a DH? They both do good dps but that’s not the issue. The DH is bringing so much more utility than the fury warrior. So of course there will be a meta that caters to the DH over the Fury warrior. What else can you expect. It’s an enigma to me how Blizzard can’t see this issue.

[Volatilis]

I'm not sure why they brought back class buffs that give 5% dps increases but lets be real, meta will always exist. Theres always gonna be a "best" and expansions normally shake that up a bit with new talents (lol...) ok new burrowed powers/legendaries that can provide a utility that makes them even better than 5% melee damage to group.

Also its relative. If you have a group/raid you clear content with in the raid they are not gonna want 20 DH.

[GringoD]

I'm not sure why they brought back class buffs that give 5% dps increases

Incentive to get one in a raid. Purely from a utility perspective, I don't know why I would need a Monk or DH otherwise. The occasional ring of peace or Netherwalk immunity maybe.
Rogue is kinda in the worst spot. They're basically misdirect substitutes in case your hunters didn't show up. And the occasional cloak immunity I guess.

[dcc626]

Incentive to get one in a raid. Purely from a utility perspective, I don't know why I would need a Monk or DH otherwise. The occasional ring of peace or Netherwalk immunity maybe.
Rogue is kinda in the worst spot. They're basically misdirect substitutes in case your hunters didn't show up. And the occasional cloak immunity I guess.

the fact that brewmaster tends to be one of the more popular raiding tanks anyway makes the buff whatever.

[Saltysquidoon]

A meta is a community response to the state of balance, so yes the meta is blizzard's fault, it can only ever be blizzard's fault.

[NordWitcher]

Was literally thinking the same thing when it comes to Fury Warriors and DH. Mained both this expansion and DH are just so much better and more efficient.

I love and enjoy both their play styles though Fury Warriors wielding 2 2-H is just bad ass especially 2 The Black Hands the plate transmit set from BRF. However DH get metamorphosis.

Even in AOE situations, Fury Warriors suffer compared to other classes. They also have not as good defence outside Bloodthirsty when compared to DH.

[owbu]

I don't think that blizzard could ever prevent the community from making up a mandatory meta. That's just something communities do.

But they could probably make the game better by trying harder.

[kappalol]

Not everyone can be good at everything. Each class has cons and pros.

[Asrialol]

I wouldn't complain about class balance and metas and then compare warrior to DH, both who are in at the top of the meta. Fury is irrelevant when they have Prot. Why didn't you mention vengeance, I wonder, OP? They're trash compared to prot. Isn't it "okay" that fury is worse than havoc when prot is better than vengeance? Why complain about one but not the other?

Strange. If you talked about priests, warlocks or shamans then maybe you'd make sense.

[Sunnydee]

A meta is a community response to the state of balance, so yes the meta is blizzard's fault, it can only ever be blizzard's fault.

Sums it up.
Not sure what OP had planned for outcome with this thread.

Water is wet.

[Kallisto]

I don't think that blizzard could ever prevent the community from making up a mandatory meta. That's just something communities do.

But they could probably make the game better by trying harder.

And the moment they made more than 1 class balance became impossible. Unless every spec and class did the exact same thing mechanically wise with different animations they'll always be a top-class and a bottom one. No mmo, hell no game is ever balanced.

[Alroxas]

I think the key here that folks are missing is the OP refers to inbalance due to Utility in Dungeons.

Like for instance why Rogues/Blacksmiths/Scribes are valued in Tol Dagor with their ability to unlock doors. Granted Rogues also gain the bonus of providing shroud.


It's not an issue regarding DPS but rather the "extra" element that a class/spec can bring in 5-man content. Think back to Legion's Court of Stars where nearly every profession, class, spec could affect something in that dungeon. So if you didn't have XYZ class, you might still get some benefit from the other classes/specs you do bring.

In SL, Blizzard has kinda of brought that back with Covenant influences on certain dungeons. So that there's at least 1 reason NOT to covenant stack for dungeons (looking at you Venthyr only groups à la door of shadows).


I suppose an additional question is how much DPS/survivability are players willing to give up to have more utility... Or should "added" utility be at the cost of DPS/survivability and at what acceptable limit?

[Argorwal]

A meta exists because math.

And also, by definition, when you have multiple choices there will be, maybe an available tactic that is the most effective.

[Relapses]

Not everyone can be good at everything. Each class has cons and pros.

Unless you're a Fire Mage or a BM Hunter.

[Kralljin]

Personally i think we need to go a little bit deeper.

First off, Blizzards idea of "class fantasy" and "Strength and weaknesses" is just plain hypocrisy.
Just picking a quick example from the OP, everybody loves to bash on Havoc DH, yet why people constantly bash them?

My explanation: They have probably the strongest toolkit of any Melee dps in the game,with Blur, Netherwalk, Ranged Interrupt, semi Purge and unparalled mobility cannot be beaten.
On top of that, their 5% ensures they always have a slot.

The issue is simple: Havoc DH have no obvious weakness, maybe their dps may not be the best every time, but the fact that they have no situation (besides where Melee in general are fucked) makes them a prime example of something that's "OP".

Yet this obviously is completely counterintuitive to Blizzards design, they *should* have a weakness.

Now if we look towards other, less desireable specs, name a situation where you say: "Oh, now i really want a Feral, Survival or Elemental Shaman!".
Do these exists? Maybe, but then some other specs are probably even better than those in said situation.
On top of that, their strengths aren't obvious while at the same time people are also aware of their inherit weaknesses (such as a subpar defense in the case of Shaman).

Blizzards design does not speak for itself nor do they share the broad vision they have for a class / spec with the community, strengths and weaknesses are made up on the fly and there never really happens a proper comparison between two specs / class on paper whether these might be evenly matched even in theory, let alone in reality.

The running theme of Blizzard since WoD: Noble goal, shit execution.

Second, the other issue is the variety of content Blizzard wants to balance the game around.
Previously, the game was primarily designed around raids, hence it was easier to balance the game around this setting, because we simply had more slots available, a greater variety of "puzzles" of solve and due to the larger groupsize, it was easier to have a few "mandatory" slots.

But since M+ became more popular, a lot of that leeway dissipated, now every unique utility suddenly becomes a serious problem (Shroud of Concealment) because only 5 slots are available for 12 classes (ignoring specs as a whole), not to mention that most M+ dungeons are pretty similiar and thus specs always face similiar issues.

A spec without proper AoE could still be very good in Cata / MoP, because the focus did lie on raids where having decent AoE is not a real criteria, because other specs could cover that.
In M+ however, that's a massive problem, because every dungeon is very focused on AoE.

Same goes for healers, Resto Druid dominates the M+ scene, yet falls through in Raids, yet they cannot buff Resto Druid without making them even more overpowered in M+.

Quite frankly, balancing the game around these small group game modes multiplies every balance issue, because the slots are much more limited and any "unique" utility instantly becomes "mandatory" and thus limited your slots further.

Don't get me wrong, M+ wasn't the sole offender here, Arena was the primary culprit here before (which even Blizzard admitted years ago), but still, the addition of:
Multiple game modes with small group sizes you want to balance your game around + Keeping Classes unique, is nearly unsolveable and leads to these massive Meta issues, which is further enhanced by Blizzards shortcomings on the area described above.

The unpopular opinion is:
It was easier to balance the game when a clearer pecking order between modes existed, when Blizzard simply said "We don't balance the game around that mode".

[NatePsy]

That's the price you pay for non-homogenized specs. Some classes will come out on top

[Recovery]

I wouldn't complain about class balance and metas and then compare warrior to DH, both who are in at the top of the meta. Fury is irrelevant when they have Prot. Why didn't you mention vengeance, I wonder, OP? They're trash compared to prot. Isn't it "okay" that fury is worse than havoc when prot is better than vengeance? Why complain about one but not the other?

Strange. If you talked about priests, warlocks or shamans then maybe you'd make sense.

Probably because its not about class imbalance. Its about spec imbalance.

"just play prot"

Umm, bud, i dont want to tank. I want to play the dps spec that i like. However its impossible because DH has infinitely more and better utility options.

We can compare prot to vengeance if you'd like. Prot is better. But, its not due to utility. I can tell ya that.

[potis]

Another one xD

You want class fantasy, you get class fantasy.

Also, i have said it before and will say it again, for what content Blizzard considers the "Balance" all classes are equal.

What the 0.001% will do at MDI doesnt reflect balance, if you cant get into your little +5 or +10, its a community issue, trying to reflect to things they shouldnt, as usual.

Everything can be completed with anything if you have the appropriate skill level apart from the few outliers like the last Mythic boss the first couple of weeks, but thats intentional.

[Wuusah]

Another one xD

You want class fantasy, you get class fantasy.

Also, i have said it before and will say it again, for what content Blizzard considers the "Balance" all classes are equal.

What the 0.001% will do at MDI doesnt reflect balance, if you cant get into your little +5 or +10, its a community issue, trying to reflect to things they shouldnt, as usual.

Everything can be completed with anything if you have the appropriate skill level apart from the few outliers like the last Mythic boss the first couple of weeks, but thats intentional.

Not everyone is super skilled, though. Everything can be done if people are good is not an argument. Not all players are good. You also get players in your group who aren’t good. And class balance differences will make a difference in your +10 run if your teammate isn’t good. Just like it makes a difference in +25 if players are good.

It’s not only a community issue. You don’t know the strangers you play with in a pug. Would you rather have a potentially bad player playing a good class or a potentially bad player playing a bad class?

[Twdft]

covenant stack for dungeons (looking at you Venthyr only groups à la door of shadows).

I've tested door of shadows a bit on beta and it is not far enough to skip even one enemy without pulling aggro. There might be dungeons were you can get up/over some terrain, but I don't think door of shadow will be a deciding factor for M+