Do you think they are going to try to force covenant diversity in the worst way?

[goldlock]

As the beta drags on i've noticed more and more worrying trends...

The raid has a excessive amount of bleed mechanics seemingly to give the kyrian covenant a use unless their goal is to buff immunity classes even more. The way to remove that debuffs usually involves soaking up dmg a nod at necrolords through already a inferior method to kyrians...

Mythic will have extremely power buffs if you have X member of covenant (mythic plus isn't being tested but I have a sinking suspension the buffs will be active in that mode and all but required for higher keys.

Do you think in their desperation to try and salvage what seems to be a doomed and fool hardy system blizzard will resort to making it so players search out unpopular covenants for group advantages?

Will we see bring the covenant not the class take hold?

[MrLachyG]

As the beta drags on i've noticed more and more worrying trends...

The raid has a excessive amount of bleed mechanics seemingly to give the kyrian covenant a use unless their goal is to buff immunity classes even more. The way to remove that debuffs usually involves soaking up dmg a nod at necrolords through already a inferior method to kyrians...

Mythic will have extremely power buffs if you have X member of covenant (mythic plus isn't being tested but I have a sinking suspension the buffs will be active in that mode and all but required for higher keys.

Do you think in their desperation to try and salvage what seems to be a doomed and fool hardy system blizzard will resort to making it so players search out unpopular covenants for group advantages?

Will we see bring the covenant not the class take hold?

what I want to know is do our soulbinds work in instances? or is it just in Torghast/open world? because if the answer to those questions are no and yes, then it doesn't fuckin matter at all. you join a covenant, you get the ability. there are no ranks, no extra additions to the covenant ability if you have more renown with them. so for the min/maxers who like to push m+ and raids it won't matter if you constantly swap because any bonus from staying with a covenant isn't reflected in instances, outside of Torghast (maybe)

[goldlock]

what I want to know is do our soulbinds work in instances? or is it just in Torghast/open world? because if the answer to those questions are no and yes, then it doesn't fuckin matter at all. you join a covenant, you get the ability. there are no ranks, no extra additions to the covenant ability if you have more renown with them. so for the min/maxers who like to push m+ and raids it won't matter if you constantly swap because any bonus from staying with a covenant isn't reflected in instances, outside of Torghast (maybe)

Soul binds work in instances. They always did and at no point in testing except for before they were implemented did they not...

[A Chozo]

The raid has a excessive amount of bleed mechanics

Yeah it's so weird that Blizzard shoehorns bleeding mechanics into a Vampire-themed raid

Seriously now, it's nothing out of the regular, they are literally doing the correct thing: you can't really balance a Shield vs a Teleport, but you can create situations where each one of those choices shine. Since none of it is truly obligatory (like Mind Control apparently was during WoD's Blast Furnace) it's not a case of "bring the covenant, not the player" (which in itself is a gross misunderstanding of the argument). Content isn't unbeatable just because people lack some Covenant advantage.

If you are this concerned over a problem that doesn't exist, you are free to build a group composed of diverse Covenant members. Adapt, and overcome the problem, like the pro players will do.

[goldlock]

Yeah it's so weird that Blizzard shoehorns bleeding mechanics into a Vampire-themed raid

Seriously now, it's nothing out of the regular, they are literally doing the correct thing: you can't really balance a Shield vs a Teleport, but you can create situations where each one of those choices shine. Since none of it is truly obligatory (like Mind Control apparently was during WoD's Blast Furnace) it's not a case of "bring the covenant, not the player" (which in itself is a gross misunderstanding of the argument). Content isn't unbeatable just because people lack some Covenant advantage.

If you are this concerned over a problem that doesn't exist, you are free to build a group composed of diverse Covenant members. Adapt, and overcome the problem, like the pro players will do.

The issues I see with your line of thinking are this.

Does this mean every raid will rely on bleed mechanics? (It is the only thing that covenants ability brings to the table since any other class of debuff is easily to dispel)

Mythic + if these changes go forward may not be doable on high keys without these buffs (That is beyond loot cap granted)

Pro players also buy massive amounts of gold... should aspiring raiders do that as well?

[FelPlague]

As the beta drags on i've noticed more and more worrying trends...

The raid has a excessive amount of bleed mechanics seemingly to give the kyrian covenant a use unless their goal is to buff immunity classes even more. The way to remove that debuffs usually involves soaking up dmg a nod at necrolords through already a inferior method to kyrians...

Mythic will have extremely power buffs if you have X member of covenant (mythic plus isn't being tested but I have a sinking suspension the buffs will be active in that mode and all but required for higher keys.

Do you think in their desperation to try and salvage what seems to be a doomed and fool hardy system blizzard will resort to making it so players search out unpopular covenants for group advantages?

Will we see bring the covenant not the class take hold?

1. the raid is a vampire raid.. no ffing duh its gunna have bleeds
2. the kyrian one is commonly seen as by far the worst, so it having some use in the raid will be good, but it alone is not going to suddenly make it the best.
3. the necrolords one is superior overall because with an add or 2 you can get a massive shield, or you can pop it before fight, or even mid fight if there is a phase where you cant deal damage, but take it, like line of sight moments, it is pretty decent compared to kyrian.
4. "x mebmers" ONE member, so no, it really doesent matter, with 4 covenents, and 5 players, you are pretty much garunteed to always have 1 of that covenent in your group, so unless you purposfully go out of your way not to bring someone with it well then your tough outta luck, its super easy to bring 1 kyrian in a group of 5, or 1 necrolord, or 1 night fae, or 1 venthyr.
5. "unpopular covenents' you do know every single fucking covenent will be popular right? for each class and each spec a different covenent will be more powerful. its not a "EVERYONE GOES VENTHYR!" cause the neutral ability and soulbinds are only 1 part, and many soul binds work better with some classes then others.

seems like yet again you just dont actually do your own research.

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Does this mean every raid will rely on bleed mechanics? (It is the only thing that covenants ability brings to the table since any other class of debuff is easily to dispel)

"Hey this raid filled with blood drinking vampires has a lot of bleed mechanics, that must mean all future raids that have nothing to do with vampires will ALSO have lots of bleeds!"


NO, its literally fucking vampires, of course they are going to have bleeds, what are you on about.

[MrLachyG]

Soul binds work in instances. They always did and at no point in testing except for before they were implemented did they not...

well then it's more about the soulbinds than the covenant abilities. Ion did say if they couldn't balance them they would just allow people to freely change, hopefully he sticks to that. that being said, if changing covenants still requires going to the new leader and pledging your support then it is going to make raiding very painful as people will constantly be zoning in and out changing covenants for specific bosses. which I am guessing Blizzard don't want because it massively slows down the raid. so either:

Blizzard have to get creative with the mechanics of the bosses and those mechanics will make having each of the covenant abilities a bonus, or they simply make it a talent row with 4 talents that unlock when you get a covenant rep to revered or exalted.

that's basically what they should do. whether they do it or not is another matter

[goldlock]

well then it's more about the soulbinds than the covenant abilities. Ion did say if they couldn't balance them they would just allow people to freely change, hopefully he sticks to that. that being said, if changing covenants still requires going to the new leader and pledging your support then it is going to make raiding very painful as people will constantly be zoning in and out changing covenants for specific bosses. which I am guessing Blizzard don't want because it massively slows down the raid. so either:

Blizzard have to get creative with the mechanics of the bosses and those mechanics will make having each of the covenant abilities a bonus, or they simply make it a talent row with 4 talents that unlock when you get a covenant rep to revered or exalted.

that's basically what they should do. whether they do it or not is another matter

Changing covenants requires you level up your soul binds again as well. If effectively starts you over at artifact level 0.

[Yzuthoth]

If you are:
1. In a raiding guild that pushes for top 100 in your region
2. In the running to compete in MDI
3. Pushing 3k+ in arena

You might need to choose a certain covenant. People who play at this level are willing to game certain mechanics and are not bothered by be forced to picked something they may dislike aesthetically.

If you're anyone else, which is 99.9% of players, then your covenant choice won't impact your performance enough to warrant you being forced to pick a specific one.

[MrLachyG]

Changing covenants requires you level up your soul binds again as well. If effectively starts you over at artifact level 0.

True but you will benefit from the catchup mechanic at least.

[taishar68]

As the beta drags on i've noticed more and more worrying trends...

The raid has a excessive amount of bleed mechanics seemingly to give the kyrian covenant a use unless their goal is to buff immunity classes even more. The way to remove that debuffs usually involves soaking up dmg a nod at necrolords through already a inferior method to kyrians...

Mythic will have extremely power buffs if you have X member of covenant (mythic plus isn't being tested but I have a sinking suspension the buffs will be active in that mode and all but required for higher keys.

Do you think in their desperation to try and salvage what seems to be a doomed and fool hardy system blizzard will resort to making it so players search out unpopular covenants for group advantages?

Will we see bring the covenant not the class take hold?

About a month ago or so, when we really started debating covenant power and choices or lack thereof, it struck me that it was very premature to scream from the rooftops about it because we were only seeing one part of the puzzle. Now that we are starting to see more of the pieces come together, it isn't nearly as onerous as it seemed. I highly doubt that Blizzard is adding in raid mechanics on the fly because people don't seem to like the Kyrian covenant ability.

I would, rather, assume that they are designing content based on how those covenant abilities might be used, and since the phial removes bleeds, it seems like a natural counter to have bleed mechanics...but it isn't the only choice. Another example of this is the reworked Volcanic affix, which knocks you up and deals fall damage...well, there are Soulbind abilities which reduce fall damage. Again, doesn't mean it is the only choice. I think if you look back at WoW's design history, you'll see many design choices based on the abilities they expected players might use. Whether you think this is integrated design or panicky reactive reworking is up to you.

[Soon-TM]

Mythic will have extremely power buffs if you have X member of covenant (mythic plus isn't being tested but I have a sinking suspension the buffs will be active in that mode and all but required for higher keys.

Buffs for mobs or for players?

Because I could easily see Blizzard buffing the mobs hardcore in e.g. high M+ keys, if there are 3+ players with the same covenant...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Man you mean the vampire themed raid has a lot of blood and bleed related mechanics who would have thunk.



How in the world don’t people get that giving them different strengths is a core part of making them meaningful choices some will be better for some raids or fights some will be. Enter for some dungeons well worse in others, that’s the whole point of choice.

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The issues I see with your line of thinking are this.

Does this mean every raid will rely on bleed mechanics? (It is the only thing that covenants ability brings to the table since any other class of debuff is easily to dispel)

Mythic + if these changes go forward may not be doable on high keys without these buffs (That is beyond loot cap granted)

Pro players also buy massive amounts of gold... should aspiring raiders do that as well?

The easy answer to if every raid will be bleed focuses is in the dungeons if they aren’t using bleeds in them to negate that every thing else can be dispelled and they are instead sticking to the actual themes of the dungeons then there’s no reason to think they will do any different with raids.

They also won’t tune content to be unclearable without covenant buffs just like they didn’t tune court of stars to be unclearable without the prof buffs cata dungeons.

[Mirishka]

Yeah it's so weird that Blizzard shoehorns bleeding mechanics into a Vampire-themed raid

Seriously now, it's nothing out of the regular, they are literally doing the correct thing: you can't really balance a Shield vs a Teleport, but you can create situations where each one of those choices shine. Since none of it is truly obligatory (like Mind Control apparently was during WoD's Blast Furnace) it's not a case of "bring the covenant, not the player" (which in itself is a gross misunderstanding of the argument). Content isn't unbeatable just because people lack some Covenant advantage.

If you are this concerned over a problem that doesn't exist, you are free to build a group composed of diverse Covenant members. Adapt, and overcome the problem, like the pro players will do.

I give this post an imaginary upvote.

[Krakan]

Man you mean the vampire themed raid has a lot of blood and bleed related mechanics who would have thunk.



How in the world don’t people get that giving them different strengths is a core part of making them meaningful choices some will be better for some raids or fights some will be. Enter for some dungeons well worse in others, that’s the whole point of choice.

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The easy answer to if every raid will be bleed focuses is in the dungeons if they aren’t using bleeds in them to negate that every thing else can be dispelled and they are instead sticking to the actual themes of the dungeons then there’s no reason to think they will do any different with raids.

They also won’t tune content to be unclearable without covenant buffs just like they didn’t tune court of stars to be unclearable without the prof buffs cata dungeons.

They are adding massive power buffs to dungeons based on covenants though. I admit I don't like the writing on the walls myself.

[Unholyground]

If you play with friends and not randoms 99.9% of these min/maxing elitist cock issues disappear.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They are adding massive power buffs to dungeons based on covenants though. I admit I don't like the writing on the walls myself.

without actual tuning passes we don't really know if they will be all that massive they could be as little as the cata arch buffs as good as the mechagon bot's or better but no matter the range it's safe to say they won't make the content unclearable without them.

[Krakan]

If you play with friends and not randoms 99.9% of these min/maxing elitist cock issues disappear.

Neat now go pretend people talking about balance care what you and your friends do.

This change reminds me of when they locked bosses and buffs behind archeology in cata. Non of it mattered for that content but I rather not look for certain covenants ontop of certain specs for 20 keys.

[Kralljin]

Let's entertain the idea that the vial will actually remove any really important bleed debuffs...

what about the next tier?
Is it going to be all about diseases?

Next one about curses?

Afterwards, poison?

[Krakan]

Let's entertain the idea that the vial will actually remove any really important bleed debuffs...

what about the next tier?
Is it going to be all about diseases?

Next one about curses?

Afterwards, poison?

I don't think it would other classes can easily cleanse those. Nothing but hard immunities clear bleeds.. I've also never noticed bleeds as mechanics that are removed by soaking or taking damage..

Usually they act as soft engrages like mores. I think we won't know raid wise for sure till the second tier but the dungeon thing has me rolling my eyes.