How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[Ashana Darkmoon]

The vast majority of the content of this game is not for "achievers," if by achievers you mean people who care about their performance. Leveling, transmog, achievements (ironically), etc - they require basically no skill or attention. So...what's the problem, exactly?

[Triceron]

The reason there is toxicity is because the game is designed just for achievers and achievers get toxic when they think other people are holding them back. If the other people were off doing other things, rather than being funneled into achiever activities, this wouldn’t be an issue.

Well yes, but that's logic akin to 'Games wouldn't be toxic if we simply make them singleplayer.

You're suggesting more content that removes the social aspect of gaming rather than actually address the social dynamism and addressing the issue at its core. That is tonedeaf in that it's not what WoW is.

What you seem to be addressing is just one *type* of toxicity by providing more content for everyone. The problem is that doesn't really address the existing toxic community and its expectations, as Classic WoW shows how the culture and community did not change in the face of a game with much more explorer-friendly content. Negative social interactions still happen fairly frequently.

[NineSpine]

Well yes, but that's logic akin to 'Games wouldn't be toxic if we simply make them singleplayer.

You're suggesting more content that removes the social aspect of gaming rather than actually address the social dynamism and addressing the issue at its core. That is tonedeaf in that it's not what WoW is.

Again, Classic WoW is an example of this. We still have less achieve-oriented end goals, yet it can still be as toxic as modern WoW. It's less on low-pop servers which is a good thing, but it's nonetheless present on bigger servers with more interactions taking place in general.

I didn’t say anything about content. I’m talking about the design of the game, not how much content there is. It’s like you are intentionally refusing to listen to me so you can repeat your same baseless argument.

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The vast majority of the content of this game is not for "achievers," if by achievers you mean people who care about their performance. Leveling, transmog, achievements (ironically), etc - they require basically no skill or attention. So...what's the problem, exactly?

Leveling is insanely fast, so the fact that you consider that a meaningful part of the game really demonstrates everything wrong with your argument.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Leveling is insanely fast, so the fact that you consider that a meaningful part of the game really demonstrates everything wrong with your argument.

There are a lot of players who do nothing but level, as insane as that is to me.

But even ignoring that...nothing beyond mythic raiding and high m+ keys requires an "achiever" mindset.

[NineSpine]

There are a lot of players who do nothing but level, as insane as that is to me.

But even ignoring that...nothing beyond mythic raiding and high m+ keys requires an "achiever" mindset.

Achiever =\= hardcore. They aren’t the same thing.

[Triceron]

I didn’t say anything about content. I’m talking about the design of the game, not how much content there is. It’s like you are intentionally refusing to listen to me so you can repeat your same baseless argument.

Then let's be more clear here.

What MMO game has a design that has 'solved' this issue?

[NineSpine]

Then let's be more clear here.

What MMO game has a design has 'solved' this issue?

I already explained this. None of them, because WoW created the problem with its extremely idiosyncratic design. Other MMOs haven’t needed to solve this problem because they didn’t create it. This is like cutting your own leg off and then demanding to know how everyone else grew their legs back. EVERYONE ELSE DIDNT CUT THEIR LEG OFF.

[Triceron]

I already explained this. None of them, because WoW created the problem with its extremely idiosyncratic design. Other MMOs haven’t needed to solve this problem because they didn’t create it. This is like cutting your own leg off and then demanding to know how everyone else grew their legs back. EVERYONE ELSE DIDNT CUT THEIR LEG OFF.

Yet other MMO's still experience toxicity?

My perspective - The root problem with toxicity is social interaction. Your design addresses toxicity by not addressing it at all; by incentivizing less interactions between different types of players. What I see is a 'correlation = causation' issue where you seem to think the toxicity in the game all stems from Explorers having to do Achiever content, when there isn't really anything to suggest this.

The majority of toxicity isn't stemming from explorers having to do achiever content. I don't understand why you are using this standard as a toxicity problem.

[NineSpine]

So how do you know this design 'revelation' would even address toxicity in MMO's if it hasn't been proven in practice?

My perspective - The root problem with toxicity is social interaction. Your design addresses toxicity by not addressing it at all; by incentivizing less interactions between different types of players. What I see is a 'correlation = causation' issue where you seem to think the toxicity in the game all stems from Explorers having to do Achiever content, when there isn't really any proof to suggest this. I am an achiever and I've played on alts that got berated by other achievers just the same.

I can only speak as someone who has worked on multiple critically acclaimed AAA games. So maybe that is less impressive than your “I play the game” credentials.

I’m telling you what makes wow different from other MMOs which don’t have this problem, and I’m not alone. I’m echoing the sentiments of Kevin Jordan, one of the three original designers of the game. WoW has uniquely chosen to forego all design paradigms to hyper focus on achiever play styles. No other MMO does this.

[Triceron]

I can only speak as someone who has worked on multiple critically acclaimed AAA games. So maybe that is less impressive than your “I play the game” credentials.

I’m telling you what makes wow different from other MMOs which don’t have this problem, and I’m not alone. I’m echoing the sentiments of Kevin Jordan, one of the three original designers of the game. WoW has uniquely chosen to forego all design paradigms to hyper focus on achiever play styles. No other MMO does this.

Again, I don't disagree with that philosophy

Yet it has nothing to do with addressing toxicity within WoW, because I do not believe the majority of toxicity isn't coming from a conflict of interest between types of players all having to progress through the same achievement-based systems/design/content.

And working on multiple critically acclaimed AAA games has little to do with this. Are they MMO's? Are you in a designer role? No one cares. You aren't the only one who has worked on a critically acclaimed AAA game. I worked at an Activision Blizzard subsidiary, does that make you care any more about what I'm saying either? Let's leave the ego at the door here.

It's true that WoW has a unique achiever-oriented playstyle. But that is not a root cause of toxicity, and you are equating two very different things and correlating them as one problem. I've pointed this out clearly to you. One addresses fun factor, the other is literally an issue with having negative social interactions within the game. Your design philosophy addresses the former, but not the latter. Would you say Kevin Jordan was talking about toxicity when he was talking about how WoW was designed?

[Nobleshield]

Part of the issue IS because Blizzard has a hands-off approach. Take PVP for example. Things that even in other PVP games would be considered griefing is fine and dandy by Blizzard's standards so people are assholes quite literally because they get away with it. Same with kicking people. They've LET people be scumbags by saying you can kick someone for any reason, instead of taking action against people who are abusing it to be dicks. So people are allowed to be that way with no repercussions, and is it any wonder why the community is so toxic? It's basically a case study for why laws are needed in the real world.

Besides the whole achiever thing, that I think was a major mistake. not everything NEEDED to be super hard and challenging for the top players.

[Kiwijello]

"Control" is what creates the toxicity. Whether it be someone's need to NOT be told what to do, or someone else's need to tell EVERYONE what to do. Sprinkle in the trolls and toxic waste ensues... I don't think you can put it back in the box at this point.

[NineSpine]

Again, I don't disagree with that philosophy

Yet it has nothing to do with addressing toxicity within WoW, because I do not believe the majority of toxicity isn't coming from a conflict of interest between types of players all having to progress through the same achievement-based systems/design/content.

And working on multiple critically acclaimed AAA games has little to do with this. Are they MMO's? Are you in a designer role? It's true that WoW has a unique achiever-oriented playstyle. But that is not a root cause of toxicity, and you are equating two very different things and correlating them as one problem. I've pointed this out clearly to you. One addresses fun factor, the other is literally an issue with having negative social interactions within the game.

Yes I was in a designer role, as was Kevin Jordan whose arguments I’m just repeating. WoW is uniquely toxic. Your arguments the universal, and if you were right we’d expect universal toxicity which we do not see.

[Nokura]

Look at what put you in that toxic environment and change that. You wont change the people being toxic but you can change the people you hang around. If your trying to do keys and you see more and more toxic players then try getting people with higher IOs, they will usually be more understanding and even the people from the servers of Rag***** and Aza***** are great players when at 2k in IO. At the same time if more and more people are flaming you in keys then you are probably doing something screwed up and need to fix it. Take it with a grain of salt, nobody is perfect but we can get better.

In short if you want to play the game seriously then find others that want to do the same. Try to increase you IO score, start getting normal raid parses above 75% and then heroic parses to get you into mythic guilds. Get mythic raid loot to help you pvp better. The toxicity of your surroundings is your choice, improve or stay in that pit of self hatred.

The most toxic players i've come across are in the high low-mid 3k range >>>

[Triceron]

Yes I was in a designer role, as was Kevin Jordan whose arguments I’m just repeating. WoW is uniquely toxic. Your arguments the universal, and if you were right we’d expect universal toxicity which we do not see.

You can't just state this without elaborating.

I imagine your context is 'WoW is unique in having toxicity that comes from design built around Achievers'. Is this correct?

You say that we'd expect universal toxicity. Well what do you define as toxicity, and by what standards are you saying that other MMO's do not experience it? Because every MMO has varying levels of toxicity and this isn't some quantifiable standard that we're addressing. I don't follow your logic because your statement is much too vague and broadly applicable.

[NineSpine]

You can't just state this without elaborating.

When you say this, I imagine yourcontest is specifically talking about 'WoW is unique in having toxicity that comes from Explorers having to do Achiever content'. Am I wrong here?

You say that we'd expect universal toxicity. Well what do you define as toxicity, and by what standards are you saying that other MMO's do not experience it? Because every MMO has varying levels of toxicity and this isn't some quantifiable standard that we're addressing.

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

[jzhbee]

I've had nothing but positive experiences in FFXIV since I started playing a few weeks ago. It's actually been pretty wild. I've seen dungeon runs grind to a halt so the group can explain basic core class concepts to someone new, even. I think something as simple outlawing 3rd party damage meters goes a long way toward keeping people more or less on the same team.

Third party damage meters are only superficially outlawed -- XIV mod team has essentially said "we aren't going to do anything about it unless you outright admit to it in game", and I used one for most of the time playing.
Damage meters are essential to high tier gameplay in both WoW and XIV, not a single person I did Savage trials with did not use ACT or others.
You can blame toxicity all you want, but if you're not performing well enough to do savage content, you shouldn't be dragging down those who can and want to.
I won't blame somebody for not pulling TOP DEEPS in roulettes, as it doesn't matter.
But in Savage raids, where there are DPS checks, it absolutely matters.

[Triceron]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

I am asking you to elaborate your definition of what you are considering as 'Toxic'.

Without a standard to discuss, we could be talking about two very different things and you could just play your 'you don't get what I'm saying so just keep repeating yourself' game here. If you want me to understand then you need to explain. I do not understand your perspective and I can only conclude and assume what I think you're saying based on vague descriptors like 'achievers' and 'legendary for toxicity'. That could mean very different things to different people. I want to know what it means to you so I can better understand what you think is unique to WoW that doesn't exist in other MMO's.

Throw me a bone here. What do you consider as toxic behaviour that exists in WoW and does not universally exist in other MMO's? Was I anywhere near on point with addressing the context in my previous response?

[Saltysquidoon]

WoW is incredibly toxic. You may be so used to it you don’t realize it, but Ive played every major MMO and there is nothing like in WoW. It’s not like it’s unknown. WoW is legendary for the toxicity of the player base. It’s a meme in the communities of other MMOs how cancerous WoW is.

Wow is not even close to as toxic as basically ever other popular multiplayer game on the market, a single round of lol is likely to contain more toxicity both written and actions then you'd get in a year of wow gameplay. It's like you looked at FFXIV's 1984 tier chat moderation and are using that to extrapolate your point.

[Nobleshield]

Wow is not even close to as toxic as basically ever other popular multiplayer game on the market, a single round of lol is likely to contain more toxicity both written and actions then you'd get in a year of wow gameplay. It's like you looked at FFXIV's 1984 tier chat moderation and are using that to extrapolate your point.

We are comparing other MMORPGs, not other multiplayer games. Again, so what if LOL is more toxic? WoW is still a cesspool and has the worst community of any similar MMORPG.