Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[iinverse]

The number of grps that expect this sort of thing is so minor in number and even smaller are the number that play at that level and pug spots. I will personally message you an apology the first time I get asked what cov I'm in and get declined for w/e answer i give, but I damn near guarantee it wont happen. I was never once asked what level my neck or artifact weapon were, or what corruption level my cloak was I expect this trend to continue. If you push stuff over ~22's the grps will likely get more stringent but that doesnt mean advantages cant be gained with the "non-meta" covenants.

Thats all isnt an excuse to lock covenant abilities.
If you're roleplayer and want to lock it for yourself - do not change it till the end of xpac, nothing prevents you. If you're minmaxer - swap it every trash pack. And anything between it. That simple.

I never once mentioned role play so i dunno what you are attacking with your second point just some wild swings at nothing i guess. If you want to bring FF14 into the argument you are hurting yourself unless you also advocate for class swapping, or do you reroll every tier for the top parsing class?

I want to chose the way I want to play. If I want to lock class and min-max abilites - I can do it. If I want to change class every balance patch - I can do it.
If I want to change covenant ability - uh-oh, nopenope, that ruin the game!!!11

My main point is about allowing your covenant (much like your class) to bring unique utility to every grp you are in. Cov A may be better for A B C and Cov B better for X Y Z encounters sort of thing, so depending on the fights you wish to excel at you get to choose much like how the class you play does the same thing.

99% of groups doesnt need your "unique utilities", they just want to end it quicker.

Also, speaking of roleplaying. While I'm a sort of raider\m+, I have some time roleplaying with some friends. And I'm actually limited in roleplay because of lacking ability to change class\faction. While we played a story back in WotLK my paladin needed to become a deathknight, so I was forced to delete paladin and level up a deathknight. And another our story stopped because we needed alliance blood elf for it, something like a deserter or sort of it. Waiting when blizz allows us to change faction without changing race Warcraft lore allows it, but regretfully not the game.

[Lolites]

If you're roleplayer and want to lock it for yourself - do not change it till the end of xpac, nothing prevents you. If you're minmaxer - swap it every trash pack. And anything between it. That simple.

well you completely solved it! ...for roleplayers and minmaxers so for incredibly small minority of players, while ignoring the rest...

- - - Updated - - -

If I want to change covenant ability

then you can... you just cant do it every 5 minutes...

[Echocho]

While I'm a sort of raider\m+, I have some time roleplaying with some friends. And I'm actually limited in roleplay because of lacking ability to change class\faction. While we played a story back in WotLK my paladin needed to become a deathknight, so I was forced to delete paladin and level up a deathknight. And another our story stopped because we needed alliance blood elf for it, something like a deserter or sort of it. Waiting when blizz allows us to change faction without changing race Warcraft lore allows it, but regretfully not the game.

I think you're confusing roleplaying with roleplaying game systems. One is essentially acting, the other is a framework or a set of rules that control how the game is mechanically played.

Permanent meaningful choice has nothing to do with going to goldshire and acting out what your character does, it has to do with how you build your character and how it makes you different from everyone else around you.

It's about adding depth to an otherwise shallow system. Granted this system on its own doesn't add much depth but it's a step in the right direction and it's probably just a testing ground for a much larger system coming in 10.0 that let you build your character and make it unique from your peers.

[Sezh]

do you get free class change when your class is no longer FOTM? and leveling/gearing new chart is WAY more work than changing covenant...

No, but class imbalance is an escapable consequence of having classes, of the game being what it is. Everyone knows that and signed up for it. Covenants can possibly create problems that did not have to exist. But regardless; one big reason for why people ask Blizzard repeatedly expansion after expansion to make the game alt friendly is because by being alt friendly it's not such a hassle to swap your main when class balancing demands it of you.

i would just change covenant or no longer use the set, not whine about it on forums how they ruined the whole game...

And then one month later they reverse the change back into the cool transmog it had from the start and instead make a blue giraffe suit the transmog of your new covenant, and you have to spend X amount of hours to get back to the covenant you wanted to play from the start that was changed.

Also, I resent the notion that I would ever have whined about covenants ruining the game. I think it'll be fine, because I think Blizzard has learned something from BFA. Doesn't mean I can't have concerns. I can enjoy things without being a fanatic about every single aspect of said things.

[Popokolara]

Mhm, the usual moving of goalpost. When someone calls gets called out on bullshit, lets go with "stop strawmanning". That's when I stop answering.

You did argue about swapping choice, I mean it's your main argument here. And also the only one. I have answered specifics and gave you a well rounded answer(well not to you, but you act silly so I prefer discussing with actual adults). I even did split it up for you so it would be easier to follow.

You do move goalpost like you did with the example you talk about here. Yes, the ability you talk about is probably getting nerfed, but that was not my point, and not yours initially, you just move the goalpost because you had nothing to argue against my point about flavor. Then now I gotta answer that. And you know my opinion, and I know yours, so no point in going down the hole further with you.

no i did not. i have been consistent. i never moved any goalpost. You have extreme difficulty to not mash up everything in one big mesh of I FEEL THEREFORE IS TRUE
lets me show you since you are incapable of thought that requires more than 2 cells.

Never did i argue in that segment
segment
SEGMENT
IS a lesser part of a greater whole.

those 2 lines of text. They were a specific answer to a specific argument i made, and a counter argument you made. My support for swapping never hinged on that part of the discussion.

To help you understand because you cant otherwise:
The part was about feeling special with the god mode buffs that covenants enable. I explained those buffs are not an ok way to make you feel special because you literally become a walking buff for no effort other than: i exist as necrolord->go do necrolord dungeons-> success cause i exist lul.
The existence of these buffs or not does NOT rely on the time between covenant swaps. The criticism on them also is not related to swaps.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND now how ridiculous you are desperate trying to twist something into "sounding" cool because thats all you care for: impression but no substance.

now apologise.

[Eapoe]

oh my god, could people read or at least pretend to read answers by people who dont make them echo chamber?
bcs this blatant lie was answered at least a thousand times, yet people still say it an ignore counterarguments...

what the hell is the point of discusion forum if you ignore all arguments of other side and keep repeating the same bullshit thats been already proven to be complete lie? you might as well take a piece of paper, write "everyone is wrong but me" and staple it to your monitor, you will get the same feedback you are getting from this, and at least we wont have to read THE SAME STUPID UNTRUE argument over and over and over...

Because you’re wrong. All the arguments you make are wrong. You, and Azerate as well as others, keep discussing how it’s bad but all of your points are opinions. There are no objective facts made by you, or anyone else, about how it’s actually bad for the game.
The only true, objective fact made against it is that you might be rejected for a dungeon because you aren’t optimized for it. All that means is that you are one of the two types of players I brought up in my first post on this thread of either (a) wanting carried, or (b) wanting an excuse to be suboptimal so you can have personal immersion over optimization. That objective fact has been argued against by people going “but I can play the worst spec with all the worst talents and still clear 15s,” which means that the person making this argument just destroyed their own as well. If you can clear whatever you want playing completely suboptimally, then there is no reason to let others play as optimally as they can as you can still choose to play however you want.
There’s nothing untrue about his/her post, whereas yours points to trying to pass off opinion as fact.

[razorpax]

oh my god, could people read or at least pretend to read answers by people who dont make them echo chamber?
bcs this blatant lie was answered at least a thousand times, yet people still say it an ignore counterarguments...

what the hell is the point of discusion forum if you ignore all arguments of other side and keep repeating the same bullshit thats been already proven to be complete lie? you might as well take a piece of paper, write "everyone is wrong but me" and staple it to your monitor, you will get the same feedback you are getting from this, and at least we wont have to read THE SAME STUPID UNTRUE argument over and over and over...

the argument doesnt make sense thats why

you can say giving jimmy the ability to swap one button degrades the other players enjoyment of the game but that only makes sense if you take all free will out of the equation

if you tell me that i must transmog my character into the yeti suit to be able to do content that i dont touch like rated pvp well im going to just not do it...if jimmy tells me i have to wear the yeti suit to get into his group i will just not do it.

you tell the people who like any form of optimization to not worry about not having the choice but at the same time say if it is swappable then casuals will whine about not having the choice because community perception

you care what i wanna do in a +20 because you might get asked to do it in a +8
just say no

if the argument is wrong then tell me why???

if you cant without a 5 page essay then you are using circle speak and have no substance

- - - Updated - - -

Because your wrong. All the arguments you make are wrong. You, and Azerite as well as others, keep discussing how it’s bad but all of your points are opinions. There are no objective facts made by you, or anyone else, about how it’s actually bad for the game.
The only true, objective fact made against it is that you might be rejected for a dungeon because you aren’t optimized for it. All that means is that you are one of the two types of players I brought up in my first post on this thread of either (a) wanting carried, or (b) wanting an excuse to be suboptimal so you can have personal immersion over optimization. That objective fact has been argued against by people going “but I can play the worst spec with all the worst talents and still clear 15s,” which means that the person making this argument just destroyed their own as well. If you can clear whatever you want playing completely suboptimally, then there is no reason to let others play as optimally as they can as you can still choose to play however you want.
There’s nothing untrue about his/her post, whereas yours points to trying to pass off opinion as fact.

they are literally parroting the arguments used when the mythic gear lock was added

it didnt really effect them because it wasnt actually required so it existing had 0 impact on their game outside of the fringe instances of groups telling them they needed it for like a +8 when it wasnt really needed until a +17

so by advocating for the removal and praising blizzard on it they try to use made up points that work only when you take away all free will for them to say no. As i told the guy on twitter who talked about experiencing the conduit swap lock "just dont swap and pretend its the same system"

"but but that guy is in kyrian armor and used soul shape" so??
"but but players are swapping constantly to try and always top meters" again...so??

i think blizzard has continued this to try and erode any form of skill cap and with this covenant system it allows little jimmy to have the illusion of skill because the other rogue in his group has the wrong covenant for this fight and therefore hes able to almost beat him"

[Specialka]

I am curious.
Could a defender of the covenant system as it stands answer this question:

"What if you play a spec and pick a covenant because the ability/soulbind/conduit is the 'best overall' for your spec, then you want to switch spec (because you want to play a different role, you want to help your friend or guild, etc...) so suddenly that best covenant transform into the worst because it does not suit your spec at all, is that ok for you ?"

[Lex Icon]

right now my choice is join a covenant i'm not interested in to get the only ability i would actually want to use vs joining a covenant that appeals to me but offers an ability that won't see much use. this isn't really a choice i want to make.

not a fan.

[Geckoo]

What i like about the whole covenant debate is how the whole defense for the system ends up being about how if given freedom to swap stuff at will, they won't be able to stick to one single choice because other players will reject them from groups. Which is quite funny considering that they adamantly defend that choices should have consquences but they are certainly not willing to deal with the consequences of their choices, so they want the game to basically force everyone to play how they want.

This has been enlighting, because all that spite against min/maxing has proven that toxicity is not something exclusive to high end wannabes, but something that exists at all levels. It's actually not surprising, but i'm glad it has been so obvious.

[iinverse]

well you completely solved it! ...for roleplayers and minmaxers so for incredibly small minority of players, while ignoring the rest...

Rest can change it any way theu want or make it permanent as they wishes.
I still don't know why you think that majority of players wants to make covenants permanent for other players?

then you can... you just cant do it every 5 minutes...

So... can I go for raid with one ability set and then change it for other to do daily arena? Nope? Just for some players that wants to lock it for others?

- - - Updated - - -

Permanent meaningful choice has nothing to do with going to goldshire and acting out what your character does, it has to do with how you build your character and how it makes you different from everyone else around you.

So, we have:
1. Changeable equipment.
2. Changeable gems\enchants.
3. Changeable flacks\food.
4. Changeable specs.
5. Changeable talents.
6. UNCHANGEABLE COVENANTS!!!!11
7. ... but wait, its actually changeable...

It's about adding depth to an otherwise shallow system. Granted this system on its own doesn't add much depth but it's a step in the right direction and it's probably just a testing ground for a much larger system coming in 10.0 that let you build your character and make it unique from your peers.

About uniques... nope, you will not do unique choice while chosing covenant.
As for depth - you can more in-depth, more unique character customization if you will have access to more covenants abiliteis.
Didn't see any RPG aspect in blocking it.
Its not more depth, its just more restrictions.

[Lolites]

I still don't know why you think that majority of players wants to make covenants permanent for other players?

i dont... and i didnt say that... i said your solution mention roleplayers and minmaxers as they are only players in existence, when in fact they are tiny minority...

- - - Updated - - -

And then one month later they reverse the change back into the cool transmog it had from the start and instead make a blue giraffe suit the transmog of your new covenant, and you have to spend X amount of hours to get back to the covenant you wanted to play from the start that was changed.

i have to work for something i want in game... oh the horror...

[iinverse]

i dont... and i didnt say that... i said your solution mention roleplayers and minmaxers as they are only players in existence, when in fact they are tiny minority...

Yep, other players will want to have change covenants from time to time.
Lifting restrictions will allow players to determine how often they want to change it. Minmaxers will want to change it every packs, RPG lovers - locking their choice permanent till xpac end, some players will want to change it every dungeon run, arena match, raid lockout, day, week, or every month, or patch or whatever they want. That simple.

[Lolites]

So... can I go for raid with one ability set and then change it for other to do daily arena? Nope? Just for some players that wants to lock it for others?

inability to change it will have incredibly tiny impact if you actualy know what you are doing...
but even if not, thats how blizz is doing it, and a lot of people are for it, cant rally say if majority or not, but its hardly "universaly" hated as was azerite gear in begining of BFA...
people have different opinions on what is good and what will have impact, this time you end up in the part thats against how blizz made it, deal with it or leave, nothing else will change their mind, definitely not constant repeat of lies (and yes, unlocking covenants having no impact IS A HUGE LIE, already adresed milion times so im not gonna bother repeating why, if you want to really know read the thread and dont ignore posters that disagree with you)

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, other players will want to have change covenants from time to time.

and other players will prefer having them locked, you can guess who is in majority, but thats about it...

lifting restrictions will cause minmaxers to be happy and people who prefer flavour but dont want to be benched to change it even if they dont want to...
so in the end: locked covennats - minmaxers CAN do any content, but will be "only"99% optimal
unlocked covenants - minmaxers will be happy, and casuals will either play what they dont want to or they wont see content...

yeah, unlock it, great solution that will fit anyone* ( *anyone in this case means minmaxers)

- - - Updated - - -

I am curious.
Could a defender of the covenant system as it stands answer this question:

"What if you play a spec and pick a covenant because the ability/soulbind/conduit is the 'best overall' for your spec, then you want to switch spec (because you want to play a different role, you want to help your friend or guild, etc...) so suddenly that best covenant transform into the worst because it does not suit your spec at all, is that ok for you ?"

does it make you UNABLE to help the friend in that different role, or does it make it a tiny bit less convenient?
if you can still play the different role and have no other issue than perforiming tiny bit worse then its not really a problem...

[Eapoe]

inability to change it will have incredibly tiny impact if you actualy know what you are doing...
but even if not, thats how blizz is doing it, and a lot of people are for it, cant rally say if majority or not, but its hardly "universaly" hated as was azerite gear in begining of BFA...
people have different opinions on what is good and what will have impact, this time you end up in the part thats against how blizz made it, deal with it or leave, nothing else will change their mind, definitely not constant repeat of lies (and yes, unlocking covenants having no impact IS A HUGE LIE, already adresed milion times so im not gonna bother repeating why, if you want to really know read the thread and dont ignore posters that disagree with you)

And again you have been proven wrong numerous times about how “it’s a HUGE LIE!”
Inability to change actually has a bigger impact as Blizzard nerfs and buffs things all the time. It also can affect things such as what spec you play. Just as, for instance, if I decide to go BM Hunter at the start of the xpac and choose Maldraxxus for my covenant because it has the best synergy with the spec just to have BM get nerfed or MM get a big buff then I’m suddenly with a covenant that is extremely poor for my spec if I choose to go MM.
As for how “this is how Blizz is doing it,” well, they’ve already stated they have it in place that they can change it pretty quickly depending on how it’s utilized and received. So it seems Blizzard even knows it could go poorly and has a method already developed to change it quickly should players complain or have issues.
Just to go back to it one more time, you keep stating that there is some huge lie about having no impact in casuals or the people that don’t want it to be changed easier, yet there has never been anything to prove this true. It’s actually been shown the reverse is true and for you to say there’s a lie is actually the lie being stated.

[Specialka]

inability to change it will have incredibly tiny impact if you actualy know what you are doing...
but even if not, thats how blizz is doing it, and a lot of people are for it, cant rally say if majority or not, but its hardly "universaly" hated as was azerite gear in begining of BFA...
people have different opinions on what is good and what will have impact, this time you end up in the part thats against how blizz made it, deal with it or leave, nothing else will change their mind, definitely not constant repeat of lies (and yes, unlocking covenants having no impact IS A HUGE LIE, already adresed milion times so im not gonna bother repeating why, if you want to really know read the thread and dont ignore posters that disagree with you)

- - - Updated - - -


and other players will prefer having them locked, you can guess who is in majority, but thats about it...

lifting restrictions will cause minmaxers to be happy and people who prefer flavour but dont want to be benched to change it even if they dont want to...
so in the end: locked covennats - minmaxers CAN do any content, but will be "only"99% optimal
unlocked covenants - minmaxers will be happy, and casuals will either play what they dont want to or they wont see content...

yeah, unlock it, great solution that will fit anyone* ( *anyone in this case means minmaxers)

- - - Updated - - -



does it make you UNABLE to help the friend in that different role, or does it make it a tiny bit less convenient?
if you can still play the different role and have no other issue than perforiming tiny bit worse then its not really a problem...

You can play without talents as well, does that make you unable to help others ? Wake up plz.

And you do not know yet the gap between the best covenant and the worse for any given specs. The thing is I do not trust Blizzard to balance them out given their past history of balancing those systems.

[Tradu]

What's killing the game is their insistence on turning it into something it's not while completely ignoring how games are played in 2020(and have been for years). It's the same with all the Classic trash they're adding to SL.

- - - Updated - - -

inability to change it will have incredibly tiny impact if you actualy know what you are doing...
but even if not, thats how blizz is doing it, and a lot of people are for it, cant rally say if majority or not, but its hardly "universaly" hated as was azerite gear in begining of BFA...
people have different opinions on what is good and what will have impact, this time you end up in the part thats against how blizz made it, deal with it or leave, nothing else will change their mind, definitely not constant repeat of lies (and yes, unlocking covenants having no impact IS A HUGE LIE, already adresed milion times so im not gonna bother repeating why, if you want to really know read the thread and dont ignore posters that disagree with you)

- - - Updated - - -


and other players will prefer having them locked, you can guess who is in majority, but thats about it...

lifting restrictions will cause minmaxers to be happy and people who prefer flavour but dont want to be benched to change it even if they dont want to...
so in the end: locked covennats - minmaxers CAN do any content, but will be "only"99% optimal
unlocked covenants - minmaxers will be happy, and casuals will either play what they dont want to or they wont see content...

yeah, unlock it, great solution that will fit anyone* ( *anyone in this case means minmaxers)

- - - Updated - - -



does it make you UNABLE to help the friend in that different role, or does it make it a tiny bit less convenient?
if you can still play the different role and have no other issue than perforiming tiny bit worse then its not really a problem...

Performing worse is a problem. It causes you to have less fun. It also goes directly counter to their supposed philosophy of wanting you to play your class rather than just a spec.

All of the problems for "casual" players that you're describing in a swappable Covenant world will also happen with locked Covenants, if you believe otherwise you're delusional. The only difference is that with swappable Covenants you're able to fix your character to get invited.

[kaminaris]

I am curious.
Could a defender of the covenant system as it stands answer this question:

"What if you play a spec and pick a covenant because the ability/soulbind/conduit is the 'best overall' for your spec, then you want to switch spec (because you want to play a different role, you want to help your friend or guild, etc...) so suddenly that best covenant transform into the worst because it does not suit your spec at all, is that ok for you ?"

It's not even "is that ok for you", this is literally exactly how it should work.
If you main is DPS you shouldn't be as effective as healer or tank.

- - - Updated - - -

right now my choice is join a covenant i'm not interested in to get the only ability i would actually want to use vs joining a covenant that appeals to me but offers an ability that won't see much use. this isn't really a choice i want to make.

not a fan.

If you want their ability then you ARE in fact interested in them. So that is faulty logic.

[Lolites]

You can play without talents as well, does that make you unable to help others ? Wake up plz.

And you do not know yet the gap between the best covenant and the worse for any given specs. The thing is I do not trust Blizzard to balance them out given their past history of balancing those systems.

ah okay, i thought you wanted honest answer, but you just wanted to get mad at someone...

there are 7 talent rows, there is single covenant ability, so thats a bit weird comparison, unles you think that one ability will be more powerful than 7 talents...
bcs soulbinds and conduits are not locked so you can chenge them to suit you "other" spec...

you are correct, i dont know the gap, but neither do you, so while you pretend IT WILL DEFINITELY BE HUGE without knowing a jack shit, why should i agree with your baseless asumption?

[kaminaris]

What i like about the whole covenant debate is how the whole defense for the system ends up being about how if given freedom to swap stuff at will, they won't be able to stick to one single choice because other players will reject them from groups.

Not really, here is what is going to happen:
For vast majority of players doing 15-20 keys any covenant will do as long as you have RIO score.
Heroic raids will only require curve to join and high ilvl.
Mythic raids are not x-realm so groups aren't feasable.
People wanting to push super high keys they will swap covenants when push week is out.