Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[Azharok]

why?

I never really see that question covered from legion babies who only started playing once grind systems infected the game.

Why should how much you grind matter more then how good you are at the game?

I'm guessing that if you want to be the best healer/dps/tank you'd have to spend a substantial amount of time running keys as those roles, and collecting gear etc.

I mean, you kinda need perfect gear and a solid team to time giga keys. And free time to boot.

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So what you're saying is that men and women are the same and gender is like all the stars in a galaxy?

Kathy ? Is that you ?

[goldlock]

I'm guessing that if you want to be the best healer/dps/tank you'd have to spend a substantial amount of time running keys as those roles, and collecting gear etc.

I mean, you kinda need perfect gear and a solid team to time giga keys. And free time to boot.

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Kathy ? Is that you ?

I mean you don't...

This might shock you but it used to be you could catch up to the current tier in a about 2 weeks from level cap simply by running the hardest content. This whole GRIND GRIND GRIND mentality didn't exist until legion with ap.

I will reveal one of the great truths of wow. Getting good used to matter a lot more then it did. All these alternative progression systems seem to only exists to give terrible players something to do and weirdly lock good players into one toon.

[Pury]

Should the game be ruined because casuals want the game to force everybody to be as dogshit as they are?

See? I can make asshole style headline full of assumptions and logical fallacies as well Let's not do it, not cool.

[Azharok]

I mean you don't...

This might shock you but it used to be you could catch up to the current tier in a about 2 weeks from level cap simply by running the hardest content. This whole GRIND GRIND GRIND mentality didn't exist until legion with ap.

I will reveal one of the great truths of wow. Getting good used to matter a lot more then it did. All these alternative progression systems seem to only exists to give terrible players something to do and weirdly lock good players into one toon.

So you're saying that within 2 weeks of hitting lvl 70, I could be decked out enough to run SWP ? Who would carry my ass through karazhan SSC / Gruul / Magh / The Eye etc if I had NO gear.

You can be caught up short of corruption in 2 weeks from hitting lvl 120 if you play the game too. Might not be able to enter Mythic Raiding i'll admit.

This is nothing new, it has been the same for BC / LK / Cata / MoP / WoD, I'll admit I skipped Legion cauz WoD was too much for me to bear anymore.


Being good matters even more now than it did before. Difference is, the game has never been easier, so you can't really make out the truly skilled players from the rest of the litter. But if you're good you still pull ahead no matter what (save for class imbalances which have ALWAYS been a thing).

[Craaazyyy]

ofc it does...
if you dont know what, i recomend actualy reading through this thread and not ignoring people who have different opinion than yours, its been explained at least a thousand times

i'm not ignoring anything, because i know this for a fact..

[goldlock]

So you're saying that within 2 weeks of hitting lvl 70, I could be decked out enough to run SWP ? Who would carry my ass through karazhan SSC / Gruul / Magh / The Eye etc if I had NO gear.

You can be caught up short of corruption in 2 weeks from hitting lvl 120 if you play the game too. Might not be able to enter Mythic Raiding i'll admit.

This is nothing new, it has been the same for BC / LK / Cata / MoP / WoD, I'll admit I skipped Legion cauz WoD was too much for me to bear anymore.


Being good matters even more now than it did before. Difference is, the game has never been easier, so you can't really make out the truly skilled players from the rest of the litter. But if you're good you still pull ahead no matter what (save for class imbalances which have ALWAYS been a thing).

Hmm now that would be a little tricky but you could get pretty close but for TBC I won't lie it depended massively on class. Hitting magisters terrace could get you roughly half your slots give or take. Shove another full with crafted items from previous raids and you could get a set to walk in there you would still be behind but not massively. Now granted a new player without game knowledge or any gold what so ever would need to be carried granted.

You can't be caught up in less then a month due to essences in bfa. It is by far the least casual expansion ive seen to date. Very few of its power systems actively rely on gear. A 460 player with perfect corruptions will crush a 480 player using none.

The game for the most part has been increasing in difficulty but it only increases at the mythic level. It is why I honestly think the average wow player is far less capable then their tbc counter parts while the top end is far,far more skilled. One group has constantly been pushed while the other has been given afk content.

[Specialka]

I would say that Heroic raiding is harder now than before. Normal mode is easy (not Vanilla easy though).

[Raelbo]

I never really see that question covered from legion babies who only started playing once grind systems infected the game.

What is the value in making such an asinine comment? If you must know, it just makes you look silly and makes it difficult to take your opinion seriously. But I will try nonetheless....

Why should how much you grind matter more then how good you are at the game?

I never said it should. And if that's what you're taking from what I said, I would contest that it's because you'd rather put words in my mouth than understand what I am trying to say.

To clarify my position: Being good at the game should definitely be a very important factor in terms of success at the game. However being good at the game (or anything really) is (and should be) largely a function of how much effort you put in.

Regarding the point you decided to introduce about grinding: I don't think it should ever be more important than being good at the game. But I do believe that there is merit in rewarding effort. If someone is willing to put in a lot more effort towards grinding something, I think it's only fair that the effort is rewarded.

Most importantly though, as I said, I think that the amount of effort that is required in order to succeed at the game should be reasonable, and that going above and beyond, while still able to reward players willing to do so, should remain entirely optional. What I am talking about, for example, is the difference between able to clear the Mythic raid/complete M+15 vs being able to achieve a 99% parse/doing a M+25

[Azharok]

Hmm now that would be a little tricky but you could get pretty close but for TBC I won't lie it depended massively on class. Hitting magisters terrace could get you roughly half your slots give or take. Shove another full with crafted items from previous raids and you could get a set to walk in there you would still be behind but not massively. Now granted a new player without game knowledge or any gold what so ever would need to be carried granted.

You can't be caught up in less then a month due to essences in bfa. It is by far the least casual expansion ive seen to date. Very few of its power systems actively rely on gear. A 460 player with perfect corruptions will crush a 480 player using none.

The game for the most part has been increasing in difficulty but it only increases at the mythic level. It is why I honestly think the average wow player is far less capable then their tbc counter parts while the top end is far,far more skilled. One group has constantly been pushed while the other has been given afk content.

I think you might need to define more parameters when saying caught up then.

A fresh BFA account will probably have a hard time being caught up 2 weeks into 120.

A older account with most essences unlocked it would be much easier. By the end of the first week you could probably afford all your R3 essences via echoes, You could ask friends for spare echoes to corrupt gear for you. You could buy your own stuff on the AH. Run a 5, 4 and 3 masks for extra loot. One M15 carry. Could probably start pugging HC Nzoth at that point since no one would be checking your gear anyway provided you had AOTC. It's doable.

I don't disagree that Mythic is miles harder than HC. But it's not "harder" than older raids HC LK, Yogg0, those weren't exactly easy either. I still don't understand why we have "normal" difficulty other than it prevent people who hate m+ to start gearing right after HC dungeons.

[Eapoe]

I put 1% and then I put "(arbitrary)" I never stated it was 1%. Arbitrary means "by chance".

If you can swap it will be detrimental to the "casual players". Still doesn't invalidate that you could complete the hardest content with whatever. These aren't mutually exclusive.

There's a difference between what is "required" because of number crunching and what the community perceives as "required" because Naowh or Femclap or whatever play XYZ while doing mythic prog or M29 when they (the community) are stuck on HC and M15s.

I'm assuming just as much as you are assuming that everyone and their grandmother will get rejected for a venthyr dungeon because "lol you're night fae gtfo".

What Blizzard decides to do in the end has little to no impact on my enjoyment of the game to the extent that if I have fun, I'll keep playing. I'd rather they just let this go as is so we can all see how it's going to go before rushing for the torches and pitchforks.

I'm sorry that your existence in the pug world is threatened because you'll have to settle for a 99parse instead of a 100 since you won't be able to swap covenants freely from the get go.

I'm sure a lot of people will have no trouble depleting 10s and wiping on normal mode while min/maxed to the 9s even though the game has never been as easy as it is now.

If the covenant become swappable you won't hear anything from me, I won't be complaining about it on the forums, because IT'S. JUST. A. GAME.

No, you put 1% arbitrary in the context that the difference is so minuscule that it won’t matter.
You keep saying it will be detrimental to the casual player but you never give an example that you don’t then contradict by stating it won’t matter what you decide to pick. So how, objectively and factually speaking, is it detrimental? Don’t state that you’ve already explained it because every explanation you give is an opinion, not a fact.
Of course there’s a difference of what is required vs perceived required. That doesn’t change that a person who wants to min/max by swapping Covenants as needed to push that m29 somehow hurts the game for those that play what they want and clear m15.
I’m not assuming anything. Players will get rejected because they don’t have a certain covenant at times. That won’t go away, mich like how some players were rejected at times for being a Shadow Priest. That player still managed to clear those dungeons and it didn’t hurt their game did it? Or are you going to say that them getting rejected hurt their game? I mean, if that’s true then my game got hurt because I played BM Hunter that got rejected numerous times for TD when the group wanted a Rogue. Here’s a hint: it didn’t. I kept looking and got what I needed done.
You then say you are sorry, admitting guilt, that my game will be hampered because I can’t swap freely, yet your game stays as it is regardless of swappable covenants or not. Whether I can swap doesn’t suddenly change your ability to be the same.
We already know how it’s going to go. Blizzard has even prepared for it. People will get rejected, people will be upset, and either Blizzard keeps it as is or changes it. Either way some people will be happy and some will be upset.
Except we’ve heard enough from you complaining ing about why it shouldn’t change and how you feel it will hurt casual players. You’ve already done enough complaining and advocating over something that you’ve dubbed as “just a game.”

[Azharok]

No, you put 1% arbitrary in the context that the difference is so minuscule that it won’t matter.

You keep saying it will be detrimental to the casual player but you never give an example that you don’t then contradict by stating it won’t matter what you decide to pick. So how, objectively and factually speaking, is it detrimental? Don’t state that you’ve already explained it because every explanation you give is an opinion, not a fact.

Of course there’s a difference of what is required vs perceived required. That doesn’t change that a person who wants to min/max by swapping Covenants as needed to push that m29 somehow hurts the game for those that play what they want and clear m15.

I’m not assuming anything. Players will get rejected because they don’t have a certain covenant at times. That won’t go away, mich like how some players were rejected at times for being a Shadow Priest. That player still managed to clear those dungeons and it didn’t hurt their game did it? Or are you going to say that them getting rejected hurt their game? I mean, if that’s true then my game got hurt because I played BM Hunter that got rejected numerous times for TD when the group wanted a Rogue. Here’s a hint: it didn’t. I kept looking and got what I needed done.

You then say you are sorry, admitting guilt, that my game will be hampered because I can’t swap freely, yet your game stays as it is regardless of swappable covenants or not. Whether I can swap doesn’t suddenly change your ability to be the same.

We already know how it’s going to go. Blizzard has even prepared for it. People will get rejected, people will be upset, and either Blizzard keeps it as is or changes it. Either way some people will be happy and some will be upset.

Except we’ve heard enough from you complaining ing about why it shouldn’t change and how you feel it will hurt casual players. You’ve already done enough complaining and advocating over something that you’ve dubbed as “just a game.”

Do you have actual numbers to back up the fact that it wont be miniscule ? Because so far we have no logs, no sims, just feelings and opinions. Discrepencies could also be attributed to class imbalance before anything the covenants do (that might be amplified by covenants). Maybe if they managed to tune the classes a bit more, we'd see less of a divide between cov choices.

It is objectively detrimental because pugs will have to swap for XYZ content even though they might find other covenants more fun, it is factually detrimental for the same reasons. And this is only because pugs will demand that people play the meta. But if the SP didn't have problems getting into keys, and if you managed to get a TD done as BM (anecdotal at best).
I fail to see how having the "wrong" covnenant will hinder you too. Just apply to more keys/raids.

Besides, do you pick the best covenant for your spec, or the best for the dungeon ? What if the best cov for the dungeon is actually the worst one for your spec ? What happens then ? What happens when you get elected to be the covenant carry and do "negative dps" according to this thread, but hey at least your buffing everyone else in the group huh ? So sefless and brave of you.

My guilt admission was actually sarcasm, I legit don't care what blizz does, I'm sure they have their shareholders best interests at heart.

We're still a ways off from release, covenants could very well be swappable before SL comes.

But yet you keep coming back at me with a wall of text asking for facts while providing none. We're just running circles here.

[Raelbo]

This might shock you but it used to be you could catch up to the current tier in a about 2 weeks from level cap simply by running the hardest content.

Right now a certain Boromir quote comes to mind....

This whole GRIND GRIND GRIND mentality didn't exist until legion with ap.

This might shock you but the "GRIND GRIND GRIND mentality" introduced with Legion that you speak of is entirely self-inflicted. There is a world of difference between what you need to do and what you can do. And the only real problem is players who don't seem to understand the difference.

I will reveal one of the great truths of wow. Getting good used to matter a lot more then it did. All these alternative progression systems seem to only exists to give terrible players something to do and weirdly lock good players into one toon.

What a load of utter nonsense.

Firstly, being "good" at the game absolutely matters. No amount of gear, AP, essences or corruption can compensate for being bad at the game. That's not to say that having better gear won't help a bad player to do better they would do without it, but that doesn't mean that they will be able to come close to a good player with the same gear. And they will still be outperformed by better players in worse gear. But any decent player who is prepared to put in a moderate amount of effort isn't going to have to worry about some bad who just spends all day "grinding".

Secondly these systems came into being because of top players whining about not having enough to do and wanting a way to gain a competitive advantage over their competitors. Top guilds would literally max out their characters, but because they still had time on their hands, they found any way they could to turn their spare time into a competitive advantage, and thus we had things like split-raids and gear siphoning happening.

As for this supposed problem of "locking good players into one toon", again I disagree. You do have a choice: Either focus all your energy into one toon and squeeze out that extra 1-2%, or spread your effort over multiple toons and not be quite as strong on any of them, but have the advantage of being versatile. Personally I have zero problem with this philosophy. In fact I think it is the correct philosophy because it makes our choices meaningful.

[Azharok]

As for this supposed problem of "locking good players into one toon", again I disagree. You do have a choice: Either focus all your energy into one toon and squeeze out that extra 1-2%, or spread your effort over multiple toons and not be quite as strong on any of them, but have the advantage of being versatile. Personally I have zero problem with this philosophy. In fact I think it is the correct philosophy because it makes our choices meaningful.

The community demanding everything being meta is what is toxic about this game. And this is why we have no permanent and "meaningful" choices.

[Tradu]

So you're saying that within 2 weeks of hitting lvl 70, I could be decked out enough to run SWP ? Who would carry my ass through karazhan SSC / Gruul / Magh / The Eye etc if I had NO gear.

You can be caught up short of corruption in 2 weeks from hitting lvl 120 if you play the game too. Might not be able to enter Mythic Raiding i'll admit.

This is nothing new, it has been the same for BC / LK / Cata / MoP / WoD, I'll admit I skipped Legion cauz WoD was too much for me to bear anymore.


Being good matters even more now than it did before. Difference is, the game has never been easier, so you can't really make out the truly skilled players from the rest of the litter. But if you're good you still pull ahead no matter what (save for class imbalances which have ALWAYS been a thing).

You're nowhere near fully corrupted in 2 weeks. And why do people always go with shit comparisons to Classic and TBC instead of the expansions where they got it right? You know, Cata for example.

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What is the value in making such an asinine comment? If you must know, it just makes you look silly and makes it difficult to take your opinion seriously. But I will try nonetheless....



I never said it should. And if that's what you're taking from what I said, I would contest that it's because you'd rather put words in my mouth than understand what I am trying to say.

To clarify my position: Being good at the game should definitely be a very important factor in terms of success at the game. However being good at the game (or anything really) is (and should be) largely a function of how much effort you put in.

Regarding the point you decided to introduce about grinding: I don't think it should ever be more important than being good at the game. But I do believe that there is merit in rewarding effort. If someone is willing to put in a lot more effort towards grinding something, I think it's only fair that the effort is rewarded.

Most importantly though, as I said, I think that the amount of effort that is required in order to succeed at the game should be reasonable, and that going above and beyond, while still able to reward players willing to do so, should remain entirely optional. What I am talking about, for example, is the difference between able to clear the Mythic raid/complete M+15 vs being able to achieve a 99% parse/doing a M+25

Yes, because that's how you learn and acquire skills. Not because you need to grind AP or legendaries or renown or whatever.

[Azharok]

You're nowhere near fully corrupted in 2 weeks. And why do people always go with shit comparisons to Classic and TBC instead of the expansions where they got it right? You know, Cata for example.

You could be in 2 weeks, just as much as his statement, with friends, and time you could very well be.

I said "short of corruption".

And I don't believe I've mentionned Classic anywhere, I wouldn't touch classic with a 9 foot pole.

But hey, if that's your opinion.

[Tradu]

I think you might need to define more parameters when saying caught up then.

A fresh BFA account will probably have a hard time being caught up 2 weeks into 120.

A older account with most essences unlocked it would be much easier. By the end of the first week you could probably afford all your R3 essences via echoes, You could ask friends for spare echoes to corrupt gear for you. You could buy your own stuff on the AH. Run a 5, 4 and 3 masks for extra loot. One M15 carry. Could probably start pugging HC Nzoth at that point since no one would be checking your gear anyway provided you had AOTC. It's doable.

I don't disagree that Mythic is miles harder than HC. But it's not "harder" than older raids HC LK, Yogg0, those weren't exactly easy either. I still don't understand why we have "normal" difficulty other than it prevent people who hate m+ to start gearing right after HC dungeons.

Yes, and that's a problem.

That was a thing for literally a day, it's not a thing currently.

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Do you have actual numbers to back up the fact that it wont be miniscule ? Because so far we have no logs, no sims, just feelings and opinions. Discrepencies could also be attributed to class imbalance before anything the covenants do (that might be amplified by covenants). Maybe if they managed to tune the classes a bit more, we'd see less of a divide between cov choices.

It is objectively detrimental because pugs will have to swap for XYZ content even though they might find other covenants more fun, it is factually detrimental for the same reasons. And this is only because pugs will demand that people play the meta. But if the SP didn't have problems getting into keys, and if you managed to get a TD done as BM (anecdotal at best).
I fail to see how having the "wrong" covnenant will hinder you too. Just apply to more keys/raids.

Besides, do you pick the best covenant for your spec, or the best for the dungeon ? What if the best cov for the dungeon is actually the worst one for your spec ? What happens then ? What happens when you get elected to be the covenant carry and do "negative dps" according to this thread, but hey at least your buffing everyone else in the group huh ? So sefless and brave of you.

My guilt admission was actually sarcasm, I legit don't care what blizz does, I'm sure they have their shareholders best interests at heart.

We're still a ways off from release, covenants could very well be swappable before SL comes.

But yet you keep coming back at me with a wall of text asking for facts while providing none. We're just running circles here.

We have Blizzard's awful track record when it comes to tuning stuff, especially borrowed power.

[Azharok]

Yes, and that's a problem.

That was a thing for literally a day, it's not a thing currently.

I wouldn't expect to be caught up to the LAST TIER of the END of an expansion joining this late. And don't worry, you wont miss SL if you join now !

And if I got enticed into playing BFA by friends I'd expect them to help me get caught, since they are my friends and all.

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We have Blizzard's awful track record when it comes to tuning stuff, especially borrowed power.

But did it prevent you from doing what you wanted ?

[Raelbo]

The community demanding everything being meta is what is toxic about this game. And this is why we have no permanent and "meaningful" choices.

By "community" I assume you mean the vocal minority who believe that thinking they're good at the game makes their opinion on what is good for the game valid regardless of their analytical and/or critical thinking skills....

[Azharok]

Yes

/10char

[Tradu]

Secondly these systems came into being because of top players whining about not having enough to do and wanting a way to gain a competitive advantage over their competitors. Top guilds would literally max out their characters, but because they still had time on their hands, they found any way they could to turn their spare time into a competitive advantage, and thus we had things like split-raids and gear siphoning happening.

As for this supposed problem of "locking good players into one toon", again I disagree. You do have a choice: Either focus all your energy into one toon and squeeze out that extra 1-2%, or spread your effort over multiple toons and not be quite as strong on any of them, but have the advantage of being versatile. Personally I have zero problem with this philosophy. In fact I think it is the correct philosophy because it makes our choices meaningful.

This just isn't true. Top players generally loved having time off during farm to recharge mentally, play other games, PvP, whatever. It was added for people who didn't want to do the hardest content but still wanted power progression once they beat their lower level of content and decided they didn't want to try harder content.

And one of the big issues for the past few expansions, and likely SL too, is that it's actually easier to maintain a competitive alt than a competitive offspec, because most big power gains/sources are spec locked and on lockouts (AP, legendaries, azerite, Covenants). That's really stupid design, even ignoring that we have different ideas of how effort should be rewarded.

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The community demanding everything being meta is what is toxic about this game. And this is why we have no permanent and "meaningful" choices.

Welcome to multiplayer games where you play with other people in a competitive environment. Metagaming is how multiplayer games are played, especially in 2020.

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But did it prevent you from doing what you wanted ?

It made me reroll multiple times to avoid being on the bench or just personally feeling(knowing) I was holding my team back. So yes?