Blizzard are to blame for the meta.

[OokOok]

The class design in BFA have been incredibly unbalanced when it comes to Utility in Dungeons. This is Blizzards fault. They have given some classes tools which are extremely strong in dungeons while others got nothing. How do they expect to create good balance between classes with this design.

There are many examples of this. One is: why play with a fury warrior when you can play with a DH? They both do good dps but that’s not the issue. The DH is bringing so much more utility than the fury warrior. So of course there will be a meta that caters to the DH over the Fury warrior. What else can you expect. It’s an enigma to me how Blizzard can’t see this issue.

You know "meta" has existed since Vanilla right? and it existed in tbc....and wotlk.....and cata...and mop...and wod....and legion
It will always exist.
Say Blizzard takes away ALL utility and every class brings the same thing to a group...heals...tank...or dps. There will still be a meta in the form of Melee/Ranged dps, or healers maybe a druids hots are better for the content being done.
Complaining about such things is just silly. You're not an end game raider, you're not top 10 on the M+ scoreboard. Play whatever you want, it doesn't matter what the "Meta" is when you're doing the bare minimum.

People will always complain, Warlocks have dominated the raid charts since TBC and yet they still manage to cry because they're useless in M+. Everyone wants to be OP in everything. You're blaming Blizzard for something that's not their fault, if the top 10 M+ teams all use a DH/Rogue/Mage/DK/Priest and the majority of the playerbase deem that the meta and decide that they should ONLY invite those classes because hey....the best are doing it, why is it Blizzards fault? I bet if the top teams started using ret paladins tomorrow suddenly everyone would start only inviting paladins.

[potis]

Not everyone is super skilled, though. Everything can be done if people are good is not an argument. Not all players are good. You also get players in your group who aren’t good. And class balance differences will make a difference in your +10 run if your teammate isn’t good. Just like it makes a difference in +25 if players are good.

It’s not only a community issue. You don’t know the strangers you play with in a pug. Would you rather have a potentially bad player playing a good class or a potentially bad player playing a bad class?

Which is my point, meta doesnt affect you cause you arent in the 0.001%, its a community problem that they believe it affects them.

You arent failing the +5 +10 or whatever pathetic difficulty because you didnt get the correct classes, its because you are playing the class at the 5% of how its meant to be played and whats capable, because its joke content, simple as that.

Anything up to +15 is a joke, hell in some weeks even +20 is a joke in half the dungeons, its how the game is.

You dont need rogue skip to finish the dungeon, you dont need Eye Beam or whatever other excuse people use.

There is no bad class for the content the 99% does.

[Wuusah]

Which is my point, meta doesnt affect you cause you arent in the 0.001%, its a community problem that they believe it affects them.

You arent failing the +5 +10 or whatever pathetic difficulty because you didnt get the correct classes, its because you are playing the class at the 5% of how its meant to be played and whats capable, because its joke content, simple as that.

Anything up to +15 is a joke, hell in some weeks even +20 is a joke in half the dungeons, its how the game is.

You dont need rogue skip to finish the dungeon, you dont need Eye Beam or whatever other excuse people use.

There is no bad class for the content the 99% does.

So? You have a higher chance to beat content with a bad player playing a good class. That’s the point of the meta. It’s chances. You won’t win every time. The meta is the way to win as much as possible. It doesn’t freaking matter whether you lost because the class can’t beat it or because the player was not good enough. What matters is that you lost and nobody wants to lose.

[potis]

So? You have a higher chance to beat content with a bad player playing a good class. That’s the point of the meta. It’s chances. You won’t win every time. The meta is the way to win as much as possible. It doesn’t freaking matter whether you lost because the class can’t beat it or because the player was not good enough. What matters is that you lost and nobody wants to lose.

Yeah you have no idea how World of Warcraft actually plays, its okay, good night

[arkanon]

One of my biggest head-scratching moments for years now comes from inexperienced players trying to play the "meta" class and spec, with extremely low gear levels, extremely low skill level, and in relatively easy content. BRM is a prime example - some guilds will demand that their tanks swap to BRM simply because method or w/e the FOTM guild is thats pushing world firsts use 1/2 of them.

This results in people playing a spec they dont enjoy, with talents they dont enjoy, and playing it very poorly. We had a BRM playing for a while who openly admitted he hated the spec, and the moment the raid was over, he swapped to his bear, which, for whatever reason, he really loved. We got stuck on a boss for a couple of weeks, and if im honest, it was mostly down to him just falling over dead - he just wasnt managing his stagger correctly, and would end up taking huge amounts of damage through it, and then eventually get swatted by the boss. I tried to get him to just bring the class he enjoyed, but his reply was always the same; "i cant ignore BRM, its just SO powerful as a raid tank". Eventually, he decided to bring his bear for an "alt" run (we mostly stayed on mains) and he said he would swap to his BRM for our progression boss. We convinced him to stay on his bear, and we ended up killing the boss in a few attempts. Only one wipe could be attributed to him - he just fucked up the timing on one thing, but overall, even the wipes were substantially smoother than anything we had done before.

Truth is, BRM wasnt "too hard" for him, hes a solid player. But because he just didnt enjoy the spec, he really went flat and lost interest in the encounters. This is far from an isolated incident - we had it with a fire mage in shit gear desperately trying to replicate the success of the top 5%, and she is far from a top 5% player skill wise. Eventually, she shifted to frost, and A) had WAY more fun, and B) performed WAY better.

This can even be boiled down to individual talent choices. Players outside that bleeding edge world first group really should play the spec they enjoy the most and feel the most comfortable with - in my experience, their performance will be much better, even if they are using "off meta" talents. Thing is, im not even sure I believe in this whole "meta spec" bullshit - if you search for the top 100 of a certain class/spec, you will still see some variation in talents chosen. Sometimes, starting with the more passive, simple play-style with a spec is the best, and then as you become more comfortable, start adding in more complexity to your rotation, if you see the benefits on the meters.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

It has never been this easy to do any content in the game with the worst specs in the game. There is a certain lazyness in picking your group just looking at the class instead of the player.

[kappalol]

Unless you're a Fire Mage or a BM Hunter.

BM Hunter doesn't have any way of spread cleave, bugged pet pathing. Trying to switch dmg to target on the other side of you without losing DPS is impossible and mostly target will be dead before the pet will get there even with KS / BS charge. other rangeds don't have this problem.

Fire mage is busted now where everyone have shitloads of stats

[Aggrophobic]

The class design in BFA have been incredibly unbalanced when it comes to Utility in Dungeons. This is Blizzards fault. They have given some classes tools which are extremely strong in dungeons while others got nothing. How do they expect to create good balance between classes with this design.

There are many examples of this. One is: why play with a fury warrior when you can play with a DH? They both do good dps but that’s not the issue. The DH is bringing so much more utility than the fury warrior. So of course there will be a meta that caters to the DH over the Fury warrior. What else can you expect. It’s an enigma to me how Blizzard can’t see this issue.

Classes were rather balanced in BfA though. Not all were perfect for dungeons but most had something they were good at.

You'll love Shadowlands though! Here Blizzard will force players to cripple themselves by picking permanant "talents" that'll make you good for some content and crap for others, effectively locking you out from parts of the game unless you have someone to carry you.

That and the fact that they are adding ALL the systems right away making it more or less impossible to balance.

It'll be "great"!

[arkanon]

It has never been this easy to do any content in the game with the worst specs in the game. There is a certain lazyness in picking your group just looking at the class instead of the player.

You must not have played in Vanilla. Or TBC. Or Wrath. Or cata. Or mop................

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

You must not have played in Vanilla. Or TBC. Or Wrath. Or cata. Or mop................

The gap between subtlety rogue and the other rogue specs for example has been notoriously bad over most expansions and was considered a pvp spec and not much more. Class balance in general was quite good in eternal palace (8.3 is not great, that i can agree with). In TBC if you played the "wrong" lock spec you were gimping yourself so much.

The graphs on Ashvane for the 70th percentile look really even across all specs compared to similar single target bosses of all the expansions you listed and that was the point i was making. I was not saying the game overall has gotten easier, it's just easier to play sub rogue and actually contribute. This applies to every pure dps class in the game that have perceived "wrong" specs to play.

[Wuusah]

You must not have played in Vanilla.

The game is very balanced if nobody knows what they are doing.

But now people do and the result is Classic, where ~25% of raid groups are warriors. Try getting into a raid as druid, when there are only 1-2 druid spots in a 40 man raid.

[klaps_05]

You CANNOT balance utility without making all classes the same. How do you balance Rogue utilities vs Warrior utilities vs Shadow priest utilities? Same for covenants.

But the above is not even the biggest issue atm - the focus should be on the buffs in the dungeon. In one of Tettle's recent videos, he brought a VERY good point regarding Plaguefall. In Plaguefall, Necrolords can give your party a passive aura Heroism (25%), a passive aura of DR (-25% dmg taken) or get passive AOE dmg. So when you are balancing the dungeon, do you assume you will have a Necrolord to get these buffs or do you balance it without assuming that? If the dungeon is balanced with having the buff in mind any group that doesnt have it will suffer a lot, while if its balanced without the buff in mind, then any group with necrolord will absolutely decimate the dungeon.

So now the ARMS/UTILITIES race in m+ has gotten an additional layer of not only your class' limitations, but your covenant's too.

[Kaver]

I wouldn't complain about class balance and metas and then compare warrior to DH, both who are in at the top of the meta. Fury is irrelevant when they have Prot. Why didn't you mention vengeance, I wonder, OP? They're trash compared to prot. Isn't it "okay" that fury is worse than havoc when prot is better than vengeance? Why complain about one but not the other?

Strange. If you talked about priests, warlocks or shamans then maybe you'd make sense.

Dude chill the f out...

I was simply using Fury and Havoc as examples of UTILITY imbalance. It was not to complain about any specific specs. You're right the same can be said about a lot of other specs and yes Prot is OP compared to Vengeance. But the point wasn't to compare Warriors and Demon Hunters. The point was to showcase that some specs have much more utility than other specs and randomly I used Havoc and Fury as examples. There will always be people like you who get offended when your main specs are used in examples. I cant make you all happy. If I had used Fire mages and Affliction locks instead, then I would have had a thread full of Fire mages complaining that I used their specific class/spec as an example. I can never win with you guys.

But I have no class specific agenda here. I don't even play warrior if that is what you think. I play a Outlaw Rogue which is also incredibly OP compared to Fury in terms of UTILITY. So I could also have used Outlaw as an example instead of Havoc. And I would have if I had known you would go all crazy just because I used your class in an example. Comparing havoc and fury was just an example in relation to melee dps specs. I hope you get that. It was NOT to complain about havoc at all and it was NOT to say that DH is OP compared to Warrior in general. So calm down.

[korijenkins]

I'm not sure why they brought back class buffs that give 5% dps increases but lets be real, meta will always exist. Theres always gonna be a "best" and expansions normally shake that up a bit with new talents (lol...) ok new burrowed powers/legendaries that can provide a utility that makes them even better than 5% melee damage to group.

Also its relative. If you have a group/raid you clear content with in the raid they are not gonna want 20 DH.

The meta will always exist, but Blizzard should not take weeks or months to address class imbalance that can be solved with hotfixes in many cases.

[ryjkur]

The graphs on Ashvane for the 70th percentile look really even across all specs compared to similar single target bosses of all the expansions you listed and that was the point i was making.

Classes being balanced at one fight of tier which is single target = balance succeeded xDD

that absolutely means everyone was equally good in every content right? xDD

classes being balanced in ONE fight does mean nothing.

[munkeyinorbit]

BM Hunter doesn't have any way of spread cleave, bugged pet pathing. Trying to switch dmg to target on the other side of you without losing DPS is impossible and mostly target will be dead before the pet will get there even with KS / BS charge. other rangeds don't have this problem.

Fire mage is busted now where everyone have shitloads of stats

Yeah but BM is pretty simple to play and is unusually strong right now. The best hunters make it work and even an average hunter can do well. Sometimes the adds are a bit to far apart and it hurts a BM hunter but even when they are shit they have always been pretty good on stacked packs. It's just that right now they aren't shit so they shine.

[deenman]

The class design in BFA have been incredibly unbalanced when it comes to Utility in Dungeons. This is Blizzards fault. They have given some classes tools which are extremely strong in dungeons while others got nothing. How do they expect to create good balance between classes with this design.

There are many examples of this. One is: why play with a fury warrior when you can play with a DH? They both do good dps but that’s not the issue. The DH is bringing so much more utility than the fury warrior. So of course there will be a meta that caters to the DH over the Fury warrior. What else can you expect. It’s an enigma to me how Blizzard can’t see this issue.

how is blizzard to blame with how players chose to play?do you want all classes to be the same?isnt this something everyone always says about the game being bad is homogenization? and dh are cooler,they are a new class,makes sense they would try to bring players in to it,they dont want another monk situation

someone1 said,players will theorycraft the fun out of the game,it doesnt matter how the game is these metas will always exist,just look at classic

[Kaver]

how is blizzard to blame with how players chose to play?do you want all classes to be the same?isnt this something everyone always says about the game being bad is homogenization? and dh are cooler,they are a new class,makes sense they would try to bring players in to it,they dont want another monk situation

someone1 said,players will theorycraft the fun out of the game,it doesnt matter how the game is these metas will always exist,just look at classic

But I’m not talking about theorycrafting. I’m talking about scenarios where one spec is significantly stronger than another spec in terms of utility. Blizzard are not responsible for extreme min-max’ing but they are responsible for class designs which are heavily unbalanced. When they present 2 choices where one is obviously the best, then they are responsible for most player picking the best choice. It’s not about theorycrafting or min-max’ing.

[Ysil]

There will always be a meta, its on definition. What Blizzard can do is make sure every class can do at least a M+ 20. Which they can right now. Sounds pretty good to me! And honestly pugging is like entering on any game soloqueue and pretending you can play whatever you want. You're gaming in 2020, you know the drill. At least you can get away from it joining a guild and make some friends.

[Kaver]

There will always be a meta, its on definition. What Blizzard can do is make sure every class can do at least a M+ 20. Which they can right now. Sounds pretty good to me! And honestly pugging is like entering on any game soloqueue and pretending you can play whatever you want. You're gaming in 2020, you know the drill. At least you can get away from it joining a guild and make some friends.

But can’t they at least reduce the difference between specs a bit in terms of utility?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah sure....blame them, after all they created the game.

Now what?

Seriously - all I keep hearing for years is how shit they are at making this game and how they don't listen to feedback. Happend under Ghostcrawler, now under Hazzikostas..and I swear it happened before but I wasn't following forums that much. But you only need to look at classes / speccs in Classic to know that it even was much much worse in the past.

So it is either intent or incompetence - take your pick.



..and since you mentioned how awesome DHs are: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ters-by-class/ - they are still the least played class. While the warriors you mention are played by twice as many people. So just everyone please stop claiming you know what "most" players pick and for what reasons.

1) Wow is an awesome game. But the utility imbalance between specs in M+ is not good.

2) I mention how awesome havoc is compared to fury as an example of specs. You’re twisting that into me saying DH is more popular than Warrior (which I did not say, shame on you!) and then you present a statistic that shows how many characters of the different classes exist in the game. It has nothing to do with the topic of utility of this thread.