Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[Shalcker]

So now that the OPCW has put out its statements, whats your next go to talking point to deny that this happened Shackler?

I'll wait until classified lab results are reviewed, duh.

OPCW statement itself just repeats (and a bit clarifies) previous German statements - that is, that substance isn't on the list despite possessing similar characteristics. And given that there are no clarifications on what "similar" means here obviously it'll be spun both ways.

Didn't Germans had actual traces on the bottle though? OPCW doesn't seem to mention those.

[Breccia]

OPCW statement itself just repeats (and a bit clarifies) previous German statements

That's called "confirmation".

[Shalcker]

That's called "confirmation".

We're seeing no new info that could change anything yet.

"Confirmation" was already reported two weeks ago.

[Pann]

We're seeing no new info that could change anything yet.

"Confirmation" was already reported two weeks ago.

What new information do you want? You keep asking for information but when it is provided you try to discredit it - or its source - and then continue to ask for more information.

You obviously don't believe the evidence gathered so far so why waste your time asking for it?

[Easo]

As far as i understand cholinesterase inhibitors are quite broad group; a lot depends on what exact biomarkers are there.

Someone might as well be developing new chemical poisons; given how it doesn't actually kill with medics not being around for fair amount of time after onset of symptoms they are not very successful. Noone else being poisoned - not even those who gathered evidence that had traces of it - also points to lesser potency.

Not sure if original substance, if ever identified, is going to rise up to level of chemical weapon.

This is not a broad group in this sense - the report is calling out the similarity with Novichok. You do not just get a different "cholinesterase inhibitor which looks like infamous WMD family", it does not work that way. Don't need to be a chemist to understand that.
OPCW is calling out the similarity which can appear almost only due to one thing and one thing only (unless you count miracles) - someone is working on Novichoks, read, someone is working on chemical WMD's - and that is prohibited.

[Shalcker]

This is not a broad group in this sense - the report is calling out the similarity with Novichok.

By some unspecified biomarkers.

You do not just get a different "cholinesterase inhibitor which looks like infamous WMD family", it does not work that way. Don't need to be a chemist to understand that.

Or it could be "it's cholinesterase inhibitor, and the only WMDs we have in our database with that mode of operation is Novichoks".

OPCW is calling out the similarity which can appear almost only due to one thing and one thing only (unless you count miracles) - someone is working on Novichoks, read, someone is working on chemical WMD's - and that is prohibited.

I don't believe this line of reasoning is firmly established, even though it remains to be one of possibilities.

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What new information do you want? You keep asking for information but when it is provided you try to discredit it - or its source - and then continue to ask for more information.

Information given so far is insufficient to make any judgement for me.

Certainly not enough to put blame on any specific side.

You obviously don't believe the evidence gathered so far so why waste your time asking for it?

Because i enjoy reading analysis of those things.

[Pann]

Information given so far is insufficient to make any judgement for me.

Certainly not enough to put blame on any specific side.

Because i enjoy reading analysis of those things.

Of course it is. You say that the information is insufficient to make any judgement yet - off the top of my head - you've claimed it is a publicity stunt, repeatedly called into question Germany's role and tried to lay blame at their door. You seem to have enough information to be able to make a judgement when it is deflecting away from Russia.

[Easo]

I love how you always find yet another explanation, Shalcker, it is amazing. OPCW will now continue investigation down this line. I truly wonder what you will say in the nearest future.

[Shalcker]

Of course it is. You say that the information is insufficient to make any judgement yet - off the top of my head - you've claimed it is a publicity stunt, repeatedly called into question Germany's role and tried to lay blame at their door.

Questioned German refusal to work with Russian authorities and non-disclosure of information to Russian side.

Given that there was more then entire month between announcement and actual data being shared, initial announcement was publicity stunt without any doubt.

You seem to have enough information to be able to make a judgement when it is deflecting away from Russia.

I prefer things to make sense, and "Putin poisoned Navalny" doesn't make any to me.

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I love how you always find yet another explanation, Shalcker, it is amazing. OPCW will now continue investigation down this line. I truly wonder what you will say in the nearest future.

Which investigation?

[Pann]

Questioned German refusal to work with Russian authorities and non-disclosure of information to Russian side.

Given that there was more then entire month between announcement and actual data being shared, initial announcement was publicity stunt without any doubt.

I prefer things to make sense, and "Putin poisoned Navalny" doesn't make any to me.

I thought you didn't have enough information to make a judgement yet here you are, once again, making judgements.

And it being a publicity stunt or the Germans falsified the evidence does?

But again you're trying to discredit the Germans - next it will be the OPCW - because the information does not fit your narrative. You behaved exactly the same with the Salisbury poisonings. Do you think that people are too stupid to see through what you are doing?

Ironically if you stopped trying to deflect blame this thread probably would have died a number of weeks ago but because you continue to post and argue in such a disingenuous manner people keep coming back to it.

[Shalcker]

And it being a publicity stunt or the Germans falsified the evidence does?

Did i ever said that Germans falsified evidence? I think the most i said is that it might not be sufficiently supportive of their claims (and allow for other explanations).

But again you're trying to discredit the Germans - next it will be the OPCW - because the information does not fit your narrative. You behaved exactly the same with the Salisbury poisonings. Do you think that people are too stupid to see through what you are doing?

I'm not seeing how extremely low sharing speed is conductive to any investigation, and what prevented sample sharing with Russia at the same time as it was sent to OPCW labs - it's not like there is any kind of sympathetic link between Navalny's urine and blood that could cause Navalny's death through Russian black magic.

Ironically if you stopped trying to deflect blame this thread probably would have died a number of weeks ago but because you continue to post and argue in such a disingenuous manner people keep coming back to it.

I'm interested in how situation is developing, i'm not here to bury threads; instead i bump it as new information becomes available.

[Pann]

Did i ever said that Germans falsified evidence? I think the most i said is that it might not be sufficiently supportive of their claims (and allow for other explanations).

I'm not seeing how extremely low sharing speed is conductive to any investigation, and what prevented sample sharing with Russia at the same time as it was sent to OPCW labs - it's not like there is any kind of sympathetic link between Navalny's urine and blood that could cause Navalny's death through Russian black magic.

I'm interested in how situation is developing, i'm not here to bury threads; instead i bump it as new information becomes available.

You claim not have said that Germans falsified the evidence and then in the very sentence imply that this is what they have done.

Honestly I don't care what you see or, more to the point, turn a blind eye to. The German sharing of information was not at extremely low speed - why lie? And why do they need to share their findings with Russia? Are you suggesting that Russia is incapable of carrying out their own investigation into how a Russian citizen was poisoned in Russia with a Russian poison or that they cannot detect their own nerve agents? These are rhetorical questions that you need not answer.

This is yet another of your attempts to discredit the Germans.

Your posts and posting history tells a very different story.

[postman1782]

I love how you always find yet another explanation, Shalcker, it is amazing. OPCW will now continue investigation down this line. I truly wonder what you will say in the nearest future.

Gotta follow what his employers say, otherwise he will end up falling out of a window with lead poisoning.

[Shalcker]

You claim not have said that Germans falsified the evidence and then in the very sentence imply that this is what they have done.

I think we're reading different sentences then.

They detected decay products in samples that were consistent with cholinesterase inhibitor, and made them think of Novichok family.

Coming from that straight to "Russia must explain everything" before even sharing test results with Russia (which it is supposed to explain) is overreach.

Honestly I don't care what you see or, more to the point, turn a blind eye to. The German sharing of information was not at extremely low speed - why lie? And why do they need to share their findings with Russia?

Because how else is Russia going to explain anything?

Are you suggesting that Russia is incapable of carrying out their own investigation into how a Russian citizen was poisoned in Russia with a Russian poison or that they cannot detect their own nerve agents? These are rhetorical questions that you need not answer.

Ones poisoning are not necessarily ones doing the investigation; and yes, they do need to know what exactly they need to look for.

When Nemtsov was killed FSB did found (and convict) his killers.

[Easo]

When Nemtsov was killed FSB did found (and convict) his killers.

And, as not for the first time, the ones ordering it were not found (Politkovskaya). It matters so little if the people pressing the trigger are not responsible for making that decision.

Which investigation?

The one OPCW is doing? What are you calling it, then, if not an investigation?

[Shalcker]

And, as not for the first time, the ones ordering it were not found (Politkovskaya). It matters so little if the people pressing the trigger are not responsible for making that decision.

You wouldn't believe whoever they would designate as "the ones ordering it", so what difference does it make to you?

Even with perfect investigation you don't always get to the ones who ordered it.

The one OPCW is doing? What are you calling it, then, if not an investigation?

They are calling it "technical assistance" to Germany.

There is no OPCW investigation ongoing.

[Shalcker]

Statement by the Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the OPCW A.V.Shulgin at the 95th Session of the OPCW Executive Council on the situation with A.Navalny

09-10-2020 Unofficial translation



The Russian delegation would like to convey to the members of the Executive Council and all other States Parties to the CWC our position on the situation with Alexey Navalny.

We are gravely concerned with the way the incident which happened with Russian citizen Alexei Navalny in the territory of the Russian Federation and led to his hospitalization is interpreted and presented in some States Parties to the CWC.

A number of capitals, above all Berlin, attempt to show it as if Alexei Navalny was poisoned with a toxic agent that can be classified as a newest top-class chemical weapon. However, it does not even cross their minds that they are painting a grotesque picture that can only be treated as fiction. Rather, it is nonsense in its absolute form shaped as assumptions and questionable versions.

Politicians, all kinds of propagandists, and biased mass media engaged in this anti-Russian campaign hint at and sometimes even directly accuse Russian authorities of poisoning Alexei Navalny in a bizzare manner with a toxic chemical of the group known in the West as Novichok. At the same time, they forget to mention that it was in Russia where every effort was made to save this citizen’s life: pilots of the aircraft he was in when he felt sick made an emergency landing in Omsk; for two days, he received the necessary emergency medical treatment from Russian doctors; lastly, Russian authorities quickly responded to his relatives' requests and did everything possible to transfer Alexei Navalny to the German Charité hospital as soon as his condition was more or less stable. This would be an odd behavior, to put it lightly, for people whom those who take advantage of this story regard as poisoners.

This version of events essentially implies that Russian authorities only transferred Alexei Navalny to Germany to allow Bundeswehr chemists to detect traces of the infamous Novichok in his samples. How they managed to do so is a separate question, because as far as we recall, Germany has always maintained that it had never produced Novichok agents, but somehow it almost immediately found out the exact substance the Berlin patient had been poisoned with, and without mentioning the specific chemicals announced it to the whole world.

The German side is trying to prove that those «scheming Russians» first tried to kill their citizen with a virulent poison, and then for whatever reason saved his life and sent him to Germany to complete his treatment just to let heroic German military chemists to become so famous.

This ridiculous story was immediately picked up in many other countries. Hype was raised about Russians allegedly using prohibited chemical weapons.

The official German position is surprising. Instead of entering into a dialogue with us, as long as it claims to have proof that Alexei Navalny has been poisoned, it starts loud large-scale propaganda with bold statements made at the highest level. At the same time, when Russian law enforcement authorities ask German partners for assistance, and repeat their legitimate requests time and again, the German side mysteriously goes silent and continues to push its agenda – you poisoned Navalny, but we will not share anything we've found with you and will not talk to you. This contradicts with the current legal framework and Russian-German interaction practice. The inquiry from the Russian Prosecutor General’s office has been sent on the basis of the European convention on mutual assistance in criminal matters of 1959. It does not contain the need for individual’s consent to provide information relating to him/her. There is no such ground for denial of legal assistance. In 2019-2020 Germany without let or hindrance handled 83 Russian requests for legal assistance that contained personal data inquiries. There were no denials from the German side.

In addition to that the German side enlists French and Swedish laboratories to back up their groundless accusations, and they, lo and behold, find traces of Novichok too, although both countries, as far as we understand, deny having experience in the production of Novichok agents, but at the same time immediately become experienced in identifying them in their laboratories. In such a situation, it is probably best to first acknowledge that they have actually produced Novichok agents before.

Finally, some sort of a detective story is starting to unfold concerning behind-the-scenes cooperation between the German side and the OPCW's Technical Secretariat. Information in this regard has been appearing from time to time on official websites of the German Government, but leadership of the Technical Secretariat was hiding its cooperation with Germany for almost a week, essentially misleading both us and all States Parties regarding what was really going on.

We would like to stress that Russia is fully implementing all its obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention: it has eliminated all stocks of chemical weapons completely and ahead of time, destroyed respective technical equipment, is promoting the implementation of the verification regime at chemical facilities, and engaged in international cooperation towards non‑proliferation.

In spite of all the questionable demands we are receiving – including those that have been made today, in particular, in a joint statement read out by the representative of Germany on behalf of a group of countries – to conduct a national investigation, cooperate with the OPCW, etc., we stress that Russia does not owe anything to anybody: neither to Germany nor to other countries that categorically and groundlessly accuse Russia of poisoning Alexei Navalny. We do not need to explain ourselves to them and we are not going to.

On the contrary, it is Germany who needs to be the first to act and finally respond to four consecutive requests for legal assistance submitted by the Office of the Prosecutor General. It is obliged to provide us with all materials that proves, according to the German side, that a crime has been committed against the Russian citizen.

Finally, as the German partners have moved this issue to the Hague platform and decided to use OPCW capacities, they are obliged to cooperate with us in the framework of the Convention. We have sent them the corresponding request and are waiting for the substantive answer, not a formal snide response.

It is Sweden and France who must respond to our requests concerning the alleged evidence they have of the poisoning of the Russian citizen. By the way, we would like to remind you that, under national criminal legislation of many countries, withholding any evidence from law enforcement authorities that conduct a preliminary investigation is treated as complicity in the crime and a criminal offense.

The Technical Secretariat is also obliged to perform its functions and respond to a request by a State Party, for instance, Russia, asking for specific clarifications. In view of the situation regarding the alleged "poisoning" of Alexei Navalny proclaimed by several countries, on October 1, 2020, we provided our proposal to leadership of the OPCW Technical Secretariat to consider sending experts of the Secretariat to Russia to cooperate with Russian experts on the matter. We need such cooperation in order to define potential corpus delicti on the territory of the Russian Federation. We understand the reply from Director-General of the OPCW Technical Secretariat with the proposal to clarify under which provisions the assistance is required to be delivered. Taking into account the precedents already established by Great Britain and Germany we believe that the requested meeting can be conducted under Article VIII, paragraph 38(e) of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

In conclusion, I would like to highlight that as far we have not seen any willingness to cooperate with us, everything comes down to “megaphone diplomacy”. Until we receive documents, materials, samples, physical evidence that – as alleged by those accusing us – prove that a toxic agent was found in Alexei Navalny's tests, until they sit down at the negotiating table with us for an engaged expert-level dialogue, we will treat everything that is going on in the context of this incident as a vociferous propaganda campaign of lies, or, simply, a low-grade provocation.

Its aim is clear – to attempt to discredit Russia for geopolitical reasons with a series of groundless accusations and thus create a far-fetched excuse to introduce a new «tranche» of sanctions against our country.

But talking to Russia with the language of ultimatums and threats is useless. If you want to cooperate with us – please do, but only on an equitable and mutually respectful basis.

[postman1782]

-snip-

Yeah, don't think people care.

[DingDongKing]

Yeah, don't think people care.

I mean if the Russian Government said it, then it must be true. They’re not an evil and insidious set of people run by a murderous dictator are they? Oh wait. They are.

[Shalcker]

I mean if the Russian Government said it, then it must be true. They’re not an evil and insidious set of people run by a murderous dictator are they? Oh wait. They are.

You can always post contradicting information - when you have it. This is as official as it gets.

I'm really not sure what people expect to see when detailed test information still isn't available.

Drag out some random guy and declare him guilty to appease you? People say here "it takes time" for a month wait between accusation and OPCW report; and then suddenly expect substantial Russian response the very next day.

There is nothing particularly evil or insidious to ask for some decorum in diplomacy, and to wait for investigation results before meting out punishments.

Because if you just go straight to punishment then investigations stop mattering; everyone will just exchange sanctions (or launch missile strikes) on accusation then sweep the matter under the rug with their preferred conclusion as "everyone knows how it happened".

Is that where you want international diplomacy head to?