Maldraxxus and Necromancy

[Nerovar]

That was at a time when shadow magic was basically like saying "black magic", though.

Yeah, basically. It wasn't a very defined concept and was more of a broad magic type that had different "patrons". It made more sense (at least to me) than having "Death" (and Undeath as an extension of it) as an actual physical force in the universe (because this creates its own issues). Nathrezim for example were heavily tied to the Scourge because of their affinity for Shadow magic (because back then Shadow magic was what created undead).

[Goldielocks]

The answer is that it doesn't. This is all retconning. We're moving beyond the worldbuilding set by the RTS games now.

[Aucald]

This is a retcon though. Undead used to be created through Shadow magic in the lore before they turned Death into its "domain" with associated powers.

Retcon or no, current lore is current lore.

[huth]

Yeah, basically. It wasn't a very defined concept and was more of a broad magic type that had different "patrons". It made more sense (at least to me) than having "Death" (and Undeath as an extension of it) as an actual physical force in the universe (because this creates its own issues). Nathrezim for example were heavily tied to the Scourge because of their affinity for Shadow magic (because back then Shadow magic was what created undead).

No, that's not it. Back then, it was pretty much just an umbrella term for "bad, evil magics", with no really defined properties. Void and what was called "shadow magic" at that time only have some incidental overlaps(because most users would be considered evil), no significant connections.

The answer is that it doesn't. This is all retconning. We're moving beyond the worldbuilding set by the RTS games now.

Bit of an understatement. We moved beyond that about a decade ago, and they didn't really have a choice. That was worldbuilding for RTS, not RPG.

[TigTone]

Imo best way to put it is Necromancy outside of the afterlife is inherently imperfect and messy thus the making of undead.

Like trying to force oil (death) and water (life) to mix in turn making “undeath”.

I think all the beings in shadowlands should be regarded as the dead and not the undead.

[cparle87]

OR, Blizzard is pandering to nostalgia so that people are more likely to throw money at another shallow expansion.



Ner'zhul didnt go alone through the portal, he had some followers, all of which were tortured together with Ner'zhul and then turned into first liches and why they have weird skulls, even the human liches for some reason.

Yeah, that's what I've been saying this entire time. Dickman just put in a really weird way that had me wondering if he was agreeing with me or not. /confused

- - - Updated - - -

Gul'dan created the death knights out of the souls of the Shadow Council warlocks that Orgrim had killed. This was at the start of the Second War. Most of these Death Knights later fucked off, except for Gorefiend and some no names you can spam in Beyond the Dark Portal if you're not using the patrician ogre mage spam strategy.

Much later, Ner'zhul and other warlocks use the Sceptre of Sargeras to open portals to other worlds. Kil'jaeden catches them and used Ner'zhul's soul for the Frozen Throne while the bodies and souls of his followers for the liches. Being orcish skeletons, they kept the tusks, hence the tusks on the Lich model looking the way they do. There's other ways to make liches, but KT is just reusing their model in WC3.

These are separate processes and events.

No, they're not. The same death knights that Gul'dan created were the ones who abandoned Orgrim's Horde when they lost, went through the Dark Portal before Khadgar nuked it, incited Ner'zhul to rally the Horde of Draenor, steal all the artifacts like the Book of Medivh, and fled with him through the portals he opened, right into Kil'jaeden's grip. Yes, some of the liches were shaman and warlocks, but some of them were also death knights.

"While on Draenor, Ner'zhul, the orc who would later become the Lich King, commanded a number of orcish warlocks and spellwielding death knights. Yet, when Kil'jaeden and the Burning Legion captured these sorcerers after that world's destruction, they were transformed into twisted, spectral aberrations of their former selves." It's right there on the Lich page of wowpedia, citing the WC3 game manual as its source.

As for the fangs on the Liches, I think it's unrelated. Because those fangs are clearly upper jaw fangs, and orc fangs are on their lower jaws. They're like saber-tooth tiger fangs pointing forward.

[Super Dickmann]

No, they're not. The same death knights that Gul'dan created were the ones who abandoned Orgrim's Horde when they lost, went through the Dark Portal before Khadgar nuked it, incited Ner'zhul to rally the Horde of Draenor, steal all the artifacts like the Book of Medivh, and fled with him through the portals he opened, right into Kil'jaeden's grip. Yes, some of the liches were shaman and warlocks, but some of them were also death knights.

"While on Draenor, Ner'zhul, the orc who would later become the Lich King, commanded a number of orcish warlocks and spellwielding death knights. Yet, when Kil'jaeden and the Burning Legion captured these sorcerers after that world's destruction, they were transformed into twisted, spectral aberrations of their former selves." It's right there on the Lich page of wowpedia, citing the WC3 game manual as its source.

As for the fangs on the Liches, I think it's unrelated. Because those fangs are clearly upper jaw fangs, and orc fangs are on their lower jaws. They're like saber-tooth tiger fangs pointing forward.

I don't understand you sometimes. Why are you bothering going for a secondary source when the primary source is right there in my last comment in the link, I'll even quote it for you verbatim:

During his mortal life as the Warchief of the Orcish Horde of Draenor; Ner'zhul commanded a number of Orcish Warlocks and Shamans. Yet, when these wicked sorcerers were captured by Kil'jaeden and the Legion after the destruction of Draenor, they were transformed into twisted aberrations of their former selves.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undead/units/lich.shtml

Ner’zhul’s loyal death knights and warlock followers were also transformed by the demon’s chaotic energies. The wicked spell casters were ripped apart and remade as skeletal Liches.

http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...I%20Manual.pdf

Ner'zhul was indeed joined by Teron Gorefiend and presumably other death knights as well given you can train them in the campaign, but you're flatly wrong when you claim that two processes years apart are actually the same ones and death knights are the primary resource used to make liches. Gul'dan made death knights by fusing orcish souls into human bodies for Orgrim, later on, KJ made liches out of the bodies of Ner'zhul's spellcasters. The Lich's physical resemblance to orcs was not incidental - it came from just this. It's why the manual, unlike wowpedia, calls them skeletal, not spectral - they are the actual physical body brought back. KJ doesn't have a skeleton generating service in his backyard.

As for claiming those are the same processes, I've got nothing, man. The lich and the death knight are transparently different, made at different points by different people. That a subsection of one became a subsection of the other doesn't make them equivalent. Really, it boggles the mind.

[cparle87]

I don't understand you sometimes. Why are you bothering going for a secondary source when the primary source is right there in my last comment in the link, I'll even quote it for you verbatim:


http://classic.battle.net/war3/undead/units/lich.shtml


http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...I%20Manual.pdf

Ner'zhul was indeed joined by Teron Gorefiend and presumably other death knights as well given you can train them in the campaign, but you're flatly wrong when you claim that two processes years apart are actually the same ones and death knights are the primary resource used to make liches. Gul'dan made death knights by fusing orcish souls into human bodies for Orgrim, later on, KJ made liches out of the bodies of Ner'zhul's spellcasters. The Lich's physical resemblance to orcs was not incidental - it came from just this. It's why the manual, unlike wowpedia, calls them skeletal, not spectral - they are the actual physical body brought back. KJ doesn't have a skeleton generating service in his backyard.

As for claiming those are the same processes, I've got nothing, man. The lich and the death knight are transparently different, made at different points by different people. That a subsection of one became a subsection of the other doesn't make them equivalent. Really, it boggles the mind.

What's this BS primary source/secondary source? If it's posted from Blizzard it's a source, and it says that all the spellcasters with Ner'zhul: shaman, warlock, and death knight, were made into liches. You're just cherry picking words because one of them doesn't explicitly mention death knights when it says "spellcasters who were with Ner'zhul" even though you already admitted death knights were there with him.

I know the death knight and lich transformations are separate things that happened years apart. I'm pointing out that some of those same necrolytes who later were made into death knights were later made into liches. I'm not sure why you're getting so hung up on this. Necrolyte becomes death knight later becomes lich.

[Super Dickmann]

By your argument Lich King Arthas and Death Knight Arthas are completely different beings because they were changed at different points. The same death knights were raised by Gul'dan were later made into Liches, along with others.

Also what's this BS primary source/secondary source? If it's posted from Blizzard it's a source, and it says that all the spellcasters with Ner'zhul: shaman, warlock, and death knight, were made into liches. You're just cherry picking words because one of them doesn't explicitly mention death knights when it says "spellcasters who were with Ner'zhul" even though you already admitted death knights were there with him.

One is written by Blizzard, one is a fan expanding on a fan source. A primary source is Blizzard's actual materials, a secondary source is wowpedia's commentary and summary on those sources. This distinction is important when the wording is altered from the actual primary source, since one has weight by itself and the other doesn't - as wowpedia did here. After this course in Academia 101, let's get into your argument:

Your hill to die on is that KJ turning Warlocks, shamans and DKs, body and soul, into liches two years later is the same as Gul'dan putting fallen warlock souls into human bodies to make DKs two years prior. You compare these events, months/years apart, done by different people, resulting in things of different natures, appearances and skillsets to a man before and after putting on a hat. Then you wonder why your arguments aren't taken seriously. This after you wander along after not only am I to tell you that death knights were involved into liches in my first reply to you last page, but I'm also the one to link the manual and battle-net site, both primary sources coming from Blizzard instead of summaries thereof before you did.

And to what end is all this spilled ink? So that you can allege that said raised orcish skeletons were not really meant to be explicitly orcish and have orcish elements in their visual design. I'll give you one thing, you did crack me up IRL, so cheers.