No Preach...

[Soluna]

I'm more so thinking that you choose one covenant like usual, BUT the spell that get when you're introduced to each covenant during the leveling phase is basically just added to your talents so that you can swap between them regardless of your covenant choice

I think that this is what the people who are concerned with the forced choice mostly want. Simply their class ability not being tied to a forced covenant choice. And whether some people want to believe it or not (not you, just ppl in general), even the meta slaves would rather to be able to pick their favourite covenant that suits their characters' looks, rather than make a choice based on which one is the most OP.

[Soluna]

And yet alternatively, when the options are Loose, I will be expected by not just the elite, but by -everyone then- to respec my Covenant no matter if I like what I have or not.
Maybe I enjoy Necrolords on my Mage, but they only take Venthyr Mages.
We'll be told "Switch dumbass, it's easy and you're bad for not playing the best available option."

Whereas right now, the options are only being scrutinized and discriminated in planning by the Elite players who constantly minmax. ie. the 1%

Which means come launch, they'll be the only ones who care to force players into the specific Covenant they want, instead of the entire playerbase forcing this.

It's much better to have an extremely minimal crowd of hardasses than to turn the entire playerbase into hardasses by opening the choices on Covenants.

The current system actually allows for most players to pick what they want and stick with it, not caving in to expectations to get into content.

You are completely wrong. Retail atm is ruled by people who want Fotm classes even for 15s. Tell me, how easy is it to swap your class/spec completely, if you don't have the corruptions/essences, or even the said class at max level, in order to play it right away? (Not to mention experience playing it). If people can request something this absurd from the current state of the game, what makes you think that in shadowlands, people won't expect you to re-grind your fotm covenant for raids/m+ each time they are supposed to invite you?

It's like you are acting as if you are completely oblivious to the state of the game at the moment.

[agentsi]

My rebuttal would be, this is my viewpoint. As shared by millions of others. Preaches viewpoint is in the minority. Does not devalue his personal opinion, it just means most of us want story vs mechanics.

Where are these millions that share your viewpoint? I do not know anyone who reads quests or pays attention to the story. At all. I like the lore myself, but it isn't the reason I played or have played the game. This game on the mechanics level is still the best mmo out there. They also have the most fun content and a good progression system. None of that does fuck all for the story.

Sorry friend, you're the minority in this situation whether you like it or not.

[Cliss1234]

''i want everything available to me cause i can't be bothered to play an alt for a few hours''
''i want to game to suck for everyone cause i hate the lore''
''RPG is a made up buzzword stop shoving it down my throat''

is most of what i get from the people against the covenant stuff.

[TheFirstOnes]

Well, it's obvious he's not speaking for you...

But he is speaking for almost everyone else who's worried about this feature. And with good reason.

[justandulas]

My rebuttal would be, this is my viewpoint. As shared by millions of others. Preaches viewpoint is in the minority. Does not devalue his personal opinion, it just means most of us want story vs mechanics.

Preaches viewpoint is not the minority. It seems split 50/50 at best (that’s being generous to your side quite frankly)

Covenants will doom shadowlands right out of the gate if they aren’t interchangeable. It’s something you’d see in a single player game, not an mmo arpg such as modern wow.

Even classic WoW is more forgiving about bad choices in some respects than covenants

[Redhell]

And yet alternatively, when the options are Loose, I will be expected by not just the elite, but by -everyone then- to respec my Covenant no matter if I like what I have or not.
Maybe I enjoy Necrolords on my Mage, but they only take Venthyr Mages.
We'll be told "Switch dumbass, it's easy and you're bad for not playing the best available option."

Whereas right now, the options are only being scrutinized and discriminated in planning by the Elite players who constantly minmax. ie. the 1%

Which means come launch, they'll be the only ones who care to force players into the specific Covenant they want, instead of the entire playerbase forcing this.

It's much better to have an extremely minimal crowd of hardasses than to turn the entire playerbase into hardasses by opening the choices on Covenants.

The current system actually allows for most players to pick what they want and stick with it, not caving in to expectations to get into content.

You know, it's funny because I made the argument that this is exactly the reason players like you are so against freeing up the choice and I was told it was damn near conspiratorial.

Why in the world should you not be expected to be somewhat optimized when doing relatively high-end group content? If you don't want to, find a guild that will take you. You sound like an entitled brat. "Nooooooo I should be able to play whatever I want and get carried!!!!11" If you can pull your own weight with an off meta build, then props to you, but that's not how it goes 90% of the time. I play Mage and love Arcane, but I fully understand that most raid fights and every M+ dungeon requires that I don't play it if we want to clear the keys at a high level or progress on Mythic bosses. You know why? Because I'm playing with 4-19 other people and don't feel like wasting their time and mine.

You're also delusional if you don't think your covenant choice will just eventually disqualify you from getting invites to certain content unless you're in a guild, and if you are in a guild, then the choice being free literally doesn't affect you.

Quit being a dense child.

[AngerFork]

Where are these millions that share your viewpoint? I do not know anyone who reads quests or pays attention to the story. At all. I like the lore myself, but it isn't the reason I played or have played the game. This game on the mechanics level is still the best mmo out there. They also have the most fun content and a good progression system. None of that does fuck all for the story.

Sorry friend, you're the minority in this situation whether you like it or not.

Personal experience here, but I always read the quests and pay attention to the story. That was actually what I was most excited about (and subsequently disappointed by) regarding Allied Races. Most of my guildies tend to be into the story as well.

Heck, look at all the people irritated about the turns Sylvanas has taken as well as how the Night Elves have gotten nearly nothing as revenge for Teldrassil. All of that is story as well.

[Soluna]

If you aren't basing your Covenant choice on PVP, you probably wouldn't understand.

Sounds like someone has no clue of how to actually bring out his specs/abilities potential in a PvE setting. Not all of us are grey loggers like you friend. If you think the Necrolords Warlock ability can be compared to Ardenweald one, then all hope for you is pretty much lost.

[munkeyinorbit]

My rebuttal would be, this is my viewpoint. As shared by millions of others. Preaches viewpoint is in the minority. Does not devalue his personal opinion, it just means most of us want story vs mechanics.

But you just devalued his personal opinion by saying it is the minority. I also want to see your source on what most of us want. All the evidence points to you having a hate boner for preach. Nothing more.

[Redhell]

''i want everything available to me cause i can't be bothered to play an alt for a few hours''
''i want to game to suck for everyone cause i hate the lore''
''RPG is a made up buzzword stop shoving it down my throat''

is most of what i get from the people against the covenant stuff.

"i want to be able to play sub-optimal stuff because it looks cool even though it sucks and still want to get invited to group content"
"i want the game to suck for everyone that actually does end game content and doesn't just pet battle or run old content"
"meaningful choice is needed in WoW even though it hasn't been an RPG in over a decade"

two can play that game. the difference you aren't affected in the slightest if we get what we want unless you do, in fact, plan on pugging end-game content and don't want to have to optimize yourself.

the irony of this whole thing is you, and your side, are the selfish ones. you're just too deluded to see it.

[crakerjack]

I almost feel like OP is baiting. We all know what an RPG is and what type of content to expect out of it. Covenant restrictions IMO are stupid. It won't stop me from playing the game, but I feel like everyone would be happier if there wasn't repercussion for switching covenants. This level of decision making hasn't been in game since I can remember. The game has always had decision making, but not on this scale.

Decision making should feel meaningful and there should be an impact from said choice. The issue is there isn't, or so how it looks so far. If they were going to go this route, I'd rather they remove abilities from the covenants and just make a new last tier of talents that has all 4 options to pick from.

[Derpleton]

I somewhat agree with you OP, but the problem here is what happens with a player who isn't overwhelmingly invested in Mechanics VS Story/Cosmetics what about someone who is average in those regards, doesn't raid above heroic, knows some lore etc.

Now let's say covenant A does 4 damage but looks like ass and their story isn't appealing but covenant B does 2 damage and looks cool and has an engaging story.

What then? Is the meaningful choice supposed to be between looking good and performing well? For this player either of those options very well may be viable but it arguably feels terrible to be with your friends and doing less damage because you wanted to choose what appealed to you more cosmetically.

Personally I guess the way I feel about this is it should be a choice between different cosmetic sets, not cosmetics and player power. There's too much tied to one system.

[agentsi]

Personal experience here, but I always read the quests and pay attention to the story. That was actually what I was most excited about (and subsequently disappointed by) regarding Allied Races. Most of my guildies tend to be into the story as well.

Heck, look at all the people irritated about the turns Sylvanas has taken as well as how the Night Elves have gotten nearly nothing as revenge for Teldrassil. All of that is story as well.

To each their own. I like that you enjoy the game that way. Most of my friends and I are kinda scum in regards to story/quests. We click through as fast as we can just to rush progression. I did enjoy Bwonsamdi, but overall I hated the story of BFA, and most of the lore so far. I really do feel like their writers have amnesia. But I also hated the story in FFXIV, so maybe I'm just a bad example. But knowing the folks I've raided with for over a decade, most folks I've run into are quite similar. Feeding into that locust effect devs complain about.

[Essem]

Some permanence in your choice is fine. You can freely go to another covenant if you feel you made a bad choice. The "grind" will be to join back, and we dont even know how big that grind will even be.

I can already dread if everything worked like talents that you can switch willynilly. That before every raid boss everyone in the raid hearthstones out to swap covenants and conduits for the optimal on that particular boss. Or before every m+ etc. It will just be a tedious game.

Make a choice and you having to stick to that choice for a little while is good. Not everything needs to be swappable at any time, we already have talents, specc choice and gear for that job.

[Krakan]

I miss when we dismissed feeling and focused on numbers.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

It's like you are acting as if you are completely oblivious to the state of the game at the moment.

Moreso I care not for the what the weak-willed will do. Like you just said, they already expect nonsense, and that'll never stop. So Blizzard isn't helping the issue by catering to them.

Why in the world should you not be expected to be somewhat optimized when doing relatively high-end group content? If you don't want to, find a guild that will take you. You sound like an entitled brat. "Nooooooo I should be able to play whatever I want and get carried!!!!11"[/I]

Assumption being that I'll ask to be carried? I just play the game the way it's fun, and I encourage everyone to do the same, whilst taking a good hard look at how they quantify 'Fun'. In saying, that being the Best isn't inherently Fun, but you can sure trick a great deal of people into thinking it is.

[Yorimar]

I play Mage and love Arcane, but I fully understand that most raid fights and every M+ dungeon requires that I don't play it if we want to clear the keys at a high level or progress on Mythic bosses. You know why? Because I'm playing with 4-19 other people and don't feel like wasting their time and mine.

i agree, but on the other hand, doesnt that take away players choice? if you want to play arcane, you should be able to and dont feel forced into other specs (which you may or may not like) because you will lose your spot or cant clear something if you didnt

[Notshauna]

Story doesn't matter to everyone, the same as apparently balance doesn't matter to you.

By opposing fluid covenants, you expose yourself as a hypocrite who wants to have what you want, whilst denying others.

That's a weak argument because it ignores the fact that virtually every other choice in this game is a fluid one. Talents used to require gold to respec and couldn't be done away from class trainers, but yet with time they became a fluid system designed to be changed on a fight by fight basis. This system is the first time in 8 years that the idea of a serious choice outside of character creation matters and it is something that has been sorely missed.

[Aliven]

''i want everything available to me cause i can't be bothered to play an alt for a few hours''
''i want to game to suck for everyone cause i hate the lore''
''RPG is a made up buzzword stop shoving it down my throat''

is most of what i get from the people against the covenant stuff.

Having a choice is not robbing anyone from anything. Restricting choice is robbing people of choices.

If somebody dont want to change covenant, ability and soulbind because he believe it is lore explained for x character to have it then option which enable changing it does not affect him in any way whatsoever.

The argument boils down into - i dont like chocolate, i love chips, so shops should stop selling chocolate.