Remembering the BFA dumpster fire start to finish.

[arkanon]

Which I never said. Please don't misrepresent me.

I find it hard to believe that you find no drop in quality for raiding as a whole, from three raids a tier to one, raid area decreased, bosses decreased. I find it hard to believe that you explicitly reject the facts when faced with them, in which I infer from you, makes you feel uncomfortable for one reason or another.

It amazes me that I have to keep having this conversation with other users of this site, as it is blindingly obvious that it is fact. Apologies that I can't make it clearer for you.

Fuck no. Dragon Soul was a TERRIBLE raid

Firelands was objectively worse.

Are you joking? DS is easily the worst tier raid ever to be made, Firelands was a pretty good one.

The sheer lack of exposure of Firelands, as well as its lack of bosses and areas, forced LFR to be moved forwards from MoP launch to Dragon Soul.
That says enough.

You seem REALLY confused about what you are even arguing. And since you are claiming your statements are objective, you will easily be able to support your claims with evidence. Your issue comes from A) thinking your personal opinion is a verifiable fact. B) Applying one standard to the negative, and an entirely different standard to the affirmative; You say firelands only having 8 bosses was a negative, and yet dont say the same about DS? and C) You genuinely dont know what you are debating - the context was DS being "objectively better" than firelands, and yet to try and quantify that, you need to compare Firelands to the previous tier.....

Thats like saying Return of the Jedi is a better movie than Empire strikes back, because Empire strikes back isnt as good as A New Hope.

[Firebert]

I don't have an issue...? The issue seems to stem from your lack of understanding, even when given leeway for a potential in the lack of clarity in my explanation.

Evidence is self-evident from my other posts; am not going to repeat myself.

Thats like saying Return of the Jedi is a better movie than Empire strikes back, because Empire strikes back isnt as good as A New Hope.

Star Wars movies and Cataclysm Raid tiers aren't analogous.

[LordVargK]

It started when you could buy the ingredients to level cooking to 150 from the vendor. And since Blizz took a week or so to patch that, I assumed it was intended and took my time, so I missed it. Was pretty pissed.
Then Alliance got fucked on Warfronts. Horde could equip alts without limitation, Alliance had a completely unnecessary gear requirement slapped onto WFs, because Blizz realized that their system made people go afk while waiting for gear.
Azerite gear not being upgrades was just the icing on the cake. Shortly after I left and came only back to 8.3
Lots of bugs with lower quests but nothing really major in BfA content.

[arkanon]

I don't have an issue...? The issue seems to stem from your lack of understanding, even when given leeway for a potential in the lack of clarity in my explanation.

Evidence is self-evident from my other posts; am not going to repeat myself.

You seem to be mixing arguments with each other, either unintentionally or deliberately.


Star Wars movies and Cataclysm Raid tiers aren't analogous.

Yeah, it is actually an absolutely perfect analogy. Google analogy and get back to me. Yet again you fail to address any of the points raised, and instead sidestep the glaring issues in your entirely subjective opinions.

You stated, as per my quotes, that tier 13 is better than tier 12. When questioned on why, you have only been able to provide "evidence" (opinions) on why tier 11 was better than tier 12. If you can't understand why that is not a proper argument, you are beyond help.

[MoanaLisa]

These apocalyptic "BFA is the worst" are now so common for every expansion they're almost a meme. For me: BFA was a middling expansion. A lot of it was OK, enough of it wasn't OK that it somewhat spoiled the rest. Not the best by a long ways, not the worst either. Lack of class diversity has been a problem since "Bring the player, not the class" was a thing. They've been slowly unwinding that but the developers have a largely conservative outlook on the greater parameters of the game and that "Bring the Player" mindset is now encased pretty solidly. No one should be pretending that BFA was some different thing in that respect.

[Soluna]

Gimmicks can also be content. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

The fact is, a gimmick is there to keep you playing THAT expansion. It has no intention to be carried over, and that's what Islands and Warfronts were - Customized SPECIFICALLY only to exist in BfA, and be dropped as soon as that expansion is over.

- - - Updated - - -



THIS thread won't change anything, but the mountain of other threads together with it will. You can't call it out when it's convenient, then ignore it when it's not - The fact is, there is a vocal group of people who dislike a lot of what BfA did to the game, that vocal group isn't small (just like it wasn't in WoD), and it far outweighs the positive. Yes, that attracts attention. That's literally the only thing that attracts attention to a giant company like Blizzard anymore - People who are displeased with their product, and unlikely to buy it again.

I don't have time to explain the entirety of econ 101 to you, but the very least that should sum it up.



So you think. I think it's a good reminder of what NOT to try to repeat in Shadowlands, nor in the future. Considering all hope and prayers have gotten us is WoD and BfA, and actual complaints and anger have gotten us MoP and Legion, I'd prefer the latter every time.



1) Yes I do. It's important to remember the bad as well as the good.
2) It's not sad at all. I also remember the good. The problem you're missing: THERE WAS NO GOOD IN BFA. There's nothing good to reflect on. It's REALLY easy to reflect on the bad in BfA considering it emcompasses all of BfA. It's like saying you're going to go into 2021 thinking "Man, at least Corona took care of that overpopulation problem!" No you're not, you're going to say "Man, 2020 fucking sucked. It's not worth reflecting on the shit that went right because SO MUCH FUCKING SHIT WENT WRONG that we should absolutely make sure we never repeat that again."
3) I have in fact recalled on new years with my friends when a person crashed into my car which was stopped in traffic. We laughed, because I was ok and my car was fixed and nobody was hurt, and I was now at a party with my friends. Don't claim to know people when you have absolutely no idea.

Well I mean, you take literally everything I write and spin it in your own flavour to justify your rage.

This thread will change nothing, as people were very displeased with a bunch of things in Legion too (like initial artifact grind), and look at BfA, the azerite grind was just as horrible, if not worse, till 8.3. Seat of the Triumviate and Cathedral were created with MDI in mind at start, and required significant tuning post release, yet look at how overtuned many BfA dungeons were for a year or so before getting brought down to acceptable levels.

A good reminder is to be constructive instead of raging about every little thing, and even more importantly, some darn feedback would be useful. You want a problem fixed? Type the solution too, don't just say 'SO MUCH FUCKING SHIT WENT WRONG'. Unless you lack the intellectual capacity to do that.

Regarding your reply to the new year's eve comment, it couldn't be any worse. You've completely missed the point. 'Yes I do, it's important to remember the bad as well as the good'. No shit, if you read my entire comment, I note that it's important to remember the bad so that we can grow from them. Your way of life is sad, because as you say 'THERE WAS NO GOOD IN BFA QQ', well, there fucking was.

I really liked the zone story, the art, I really liked the mechagon mega dungeon, I loved Uldir and BoD, especially BoD. In my opinion, BoD is one of the best raiders ever created, it was really fun with a unique gimmick that I wouldn't mind seeing repeated in the far future. And for all the shit the corruption and essences have put us through, they've also introduced some fun gameplay when it comes to secondary stat corruptions introduced new talent builds.

I never claimed that I know people, that was yet again something your brain came up with to lash out back at me. What you described (your accident) and joking about it with friends is not a correct analogy. What you did with your friends was a small talk about it for literally a minute, while what I see here is an indefinite thread to just bash BfA with literally zero feedback. Imagine if you'd sit at the new year's eve table, and for 1 hour, you'd be like 'Okay, everyone say all the things that went wrong for you in 2k20'. Wow, must be a fun new years eve!

[Trumpcat]

If they look at my metrics, BfA is my highest engagement expansion to date. I've had no breaks and kept playing all patches until July (2020) when I took a break from active playing, but remain subbed.

If anyone at Blizzard actually cared about my player experience: I've been consistently frustrated by all the layered systems, rng, dull class design, unaddressed spec balance (they did say they will not do serious spec changes during the expansion) and last but not least unsatisfying story for both factions, leaving players at both sides bitter and disappointed.

So why I was so active in playing then? Guild and friends. We kept going not because WoW has never been better, but because we like each other's company, create inside memes and because other MMOs are no competition to WoW even in its less than good expansion. The M+ design that carried from Legion is spot on, but that's not a credit to BfA.

Would our merry guild keep going if the same frustrations continue into SL? No.

[Aucald]

I would rank BfA as WoW's most lackluster expansion, eclipsing WoD in that department, albeit for different reasons than most. Although there is a lot of complaining about BfA's various gameplay systems (e.g. Azerite Traits, the Heart of Azeroth, Essences, and now Corruption) as well as the extensive class/spec pruning, I didn't really have much of an issue with those. I mean compared to Legion I found them kind of "meh," but not horrific or in the territory of forcing me to quit playing. The biggest issue with BfA for me is simply that I didn't like the story to begin with - when I heard it was going to be all about the faction conflict I knew it was just going to be one of those expansions that wasn't for me, and I was mostly right on that score.

I was most interested in the aftermath of Legion, the build-up of the N'Zoth storyline and what was going to happen with the Wound and damage to Azeroth. All the stuff got relegated to B and C-plot material, very hazy and out of focus, while the War Campaign took center stage. The War Campaign struck me as being handled pretty sloppily to begin with, starting with an entirely unnecessary and one-sided plot hook (Teldrassil) that kind of upset the careful balance of the Alliance and Horde, almost returning it to a distorted echo of WC1 and WC2's status quo and ending rather abruptly and messily with the 8.2.5 patch that felt like they just canceled the War Campaign story-arc due to lack of interest.

I was also somewhat taken aback and bit annoyed at how N'Zoth was handled starting in 8.3, as it felt like they took a villain they had been building up since Cata and used him as a filler raid to shore up the tattered stump of BfA and give it something approaching a coda before Shadowlands hit. While 8.3 was a bit of a fresh air from a year or so of faction conflict doldrums, it was a bit too little and too late - and having N'Zoth over and done with in such a brief window feels like a misuse of what might have been a great expansion exploring the Old Gods, their greater story-arc, and perhaps giving us a Lovecraftian horror-based expansion down the road.

That being said, I did find the dungeons and leveling content in BfA quite enjoyable and still do. The raids were a bit substandard in my view, although BoD and AEP were pretty good with interesting boss encounters and overall feel. Music and art were as always great. My final summary is that while BfA is the weakest expansion, it was still playable at the end of the day. Similar to WoD in that I do have fond memories of it, though they are accompanied by the ghosts of annoyance at the many flaws in the expansion. I am somewhat glad BfA is drawing to a close now and look forward to a story-arc in Shadowlands that is completely new and doesn't have anything to do with the faction conflict explicitly.

[Djuntas]

Way to many bugs, bad systems for gear and content and often down right broken gameplay or balance issues. BFA launched with feral being so bad by 8.1 we had gotten massive buff's AND!! a hole new talent that we never had before.

[kukkamies]

I only played a month of Legion and Bfa.
Legion had really fun class and legendary quests. The fishing artifact was awesome, as was the Ashbringer quest. Didn't like much of anything else
Bfa had much better zones, dungeons and raids.

So bfa wasn't that big of a fire. Better than Legion to me, since Legion zones sucked.

[Shoxu]

Hated Zandalar so much that after i killed Ghuun hc in the first raid week, I rerolled Alliance. After this, it was a fun expansion of making new friends and not taking raiding so seriously. Giving the 100% xp buff and make it more Alt friendly near the beginning of 2020 helped to retain my attention/enjoyment.

As someone that only expects about 5 or 6 mythic bosses down each tier, I have enjoyed BFA and all the interesting game choices the developers took regardless of how bad they may have been. For now it is a 2 month break and then back to it for SL release.

[Orwell7]

On one hand, I enjoyed the "additional" content Legion and BfA had besides the standard MMO content (dungeons, raids, quests).

However, I think Blizzard overshoot a few things about them, or, got the wrong conclusion from WoD's failure.

1: additional, after-leveling power progression besides gear is a GOOD thing
1b: endless grinds are not fun
1c: boring, time-consuming, easy/unchallenging content are not fun
1d: the proportion of the catchup is off. If I get my neck level to 10 with my main in 10 hours, I should be able to get to 10 with my alts in like 1 hour. Yes, I worked all my way through it one time, let me just play with my friends with MY full power - let the gameplay experience decide performance primarily, not some arbitrary % modifier

2: additional character customization with choosable abilities, talents, essences, you name is is GOOD
2b: not being able to swap between them is not fun
2c: doing them again-and-again with alts + combined with 1c is NOT FUN


3: releasing fix content schedule with new dungeon affixes, new raids, new zones are GOOD things
3b: making them pile up on each other is not fun (like, who wants to spend their first 2 months grinding boring solo things in the middle of an xpac?)
3c: making older content obsolete is not fun

[Martymark]

For me, BFA was the best expansion.

It got me to quit playing WOW after 15 years of addiction.

Thank you Blizz for BFA!

[Tronski]

I think this sums up half of the recent expansions. Legion had shit legendaries and unbalanced artifacts at launch, and BFA had... well, too many things to bother talking about.

Funny how WoD was the exact opposite. I only raided back then, and can say with full honesty that it was the best expansion for me since TBC. Too bad there was nothing else to do.

This. The game went downhill from WoD. WoD was everything we asked for, which in turn let people accomplish their goals faster and thus play less. Enter metrics to make people play more and we got the shitfests called Legion and BfA.

- - - Updated - - -

For me, BFA was the best expansion.

It got me to quit playing WOW after 15 years of addiction.

Thank you Blizz for BFA!

Also this. Kinda.

[Very rare pepe]

Classic nearly killed this game for me, with over half my raid roster quitting.

In 12 years of guild leadership, I have never been through something like that, and pray I never have to again, because it was the worst feeling in the world.
A guild I had slowly nurtured for over a decade almost collapsed due to some nonsense nostalgia project where the end game was cleared within a few hours of it launching.

TBC will do the same, best prepare for that. And to call classic nonsense is just silly and dumbfounded. It has quite a sizeable player base and that is only a good thing for blizzard. Gotta see the big picture, your guild isn't important at all compared to the health of blizzard as a profitable company.

Edit: It's not all about the end game

[Khallid]

BfA was pretty bland for me. I don't pvp so I'm not hurt by the dumpsterfire of pvp scaling but I totally understand why people hate it.

Battle for Dazar'alor was a pretty good raid, but the rest were rather lukewarm.

The new features such as Island Expeditions and Warfronts were boring and I mostly didn't play them. Horrific Visions were ok, but the repetitive grind eventually burned them for me. It took too many visions to get sockets, which was annoying.

I think Essences were acceptable, but Azerite Gear and Corruption both sucked. Benthic gear was so-so; I didn't love it or hate it.

Seasonal Mythic+ affixes were very inconsistent. Reaping was good and Awakened was decent. But Infested and Beguiling sucked.

[Zogarth]

This. The game went downhill from WoD. WoD was everything we asked for, which in turn let people accomplish their goals faster and thus play less. Enter metrics to make people play more and we got the shitfests called Legion and BfA.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to have more things to do in wow. I just don't want NEEDING to do other things to do what I want. WoD had nothing to do outside of raiding. In TBC as an example there was plenty to do, and the raiding was already the best it has ever been.

[Kralljin]

Gimmicks can also be content. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

The fact is, a gimmick is there to keep you playing THAT expansion. It has no intention to be carried over, and that's what Islands and Warfronts were - Customized SPECIFICALLY only to exist in BfA, and be dropped as soon as that expansion is over.

I'm really not in the mood to further argue with you over this, Island Expeditions and Warfronts are content, they were built so that players engage with them and presented as new feature for BfA.

This is such a pointless thing to argue over.

This. The game went downhill from WoD. WoD was everything we asked for, which in turn let people accomplish their goals faster and thus play less.

This argument ignores that WoD was essentially not a finished expansion, the expansion wasn't supposed to launch with that little content.
What you're describing was a side effect of that, not really the original intent.

Raidlogging was already popular in Wotlk, Cata and Post 5.0 MoP, WoD just had nothing besides what previous expansions already added.

[Very rare pepe]

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to have more things to do in wow. I just don't want NEEDING to do other things to do what I want. WoD had nothing to do outside of raiding. In TBC as an example there was plenty to do, and the raiding was already the best it has ever been.

Agreed, especially with the TBC part.

[Linri]

Got ahead of the curve in Uldir, and stopped playing.
Game unfortunately didn't hold my interest enough to remaining subscribed for BFA. Usually if I get a bit tired of the expansions I do return later on to try it out, but this expansion I nearly sat out the entire time.