Covenant and legendaries in arena? Why?

[Rucati]

Yeah sure, just made me stop playing Arena, because fighting against people that are hard to kill and can oneshot you out of nowhere isn't fun.

Assuming that because one person is having while the other doesn't is somehow "averaging out" is completely silly, because at a certain point those people will be fed up and leave.

Okay? And then everyone who isn't have fun will leave and go do something they find fun, and everyone left will be people who enjoy it. I don't really see how that's a problem, nobody is forcing you to play a game you don't enjoy.

The fundamental issue is that Blizzards most recent adventures into "imbalance" aren't fun, that's the issue.

Corruptions were not fun in PvP, because oneshotting people randomnly in PvP thanks to some random piece of gear isn't really something that will foster longterm engagement, it's fun for the guy who oneshots people, but will piss off those people and will sooner or later turn into a rather hollow thing for other people as well once they're on the receiving end.

On top of that, it simply doesn't work in game modes such as Arena because dying automatically equates to defeat, that's why Random Battleground are different, getting one shotted by a guy doesn't mean you lost the match, you respawn and get another chance, in Arena, you don't.

Thinking that imbalances are always an improvement is simply not true, because the degree of imbalance and respective game modes need to be taken into account as well.

And honestly, casual PvP in WoW has become completely unfun due to variety of other factors, such as PvP scaling, Class Powercreep and Healers being unkillable.

You keep talking about things not being "fun", what you don't seem to grasp is that what you find fun and what others find fun are not always the same thing. You're looking for a competitive PvP game yet you're playing something that is fundamentally not competitive. If you go into it with the mindset of just chilling and having a good time it's fun regardless of balance.

As I already mentioned, playing my 474 ilvl DH with Twilight Dev 8 was hilariously fun in arena. You know what isn't fun in arena? Playing against old LSD comps that dragged every game out for 15 minutes by hiding behind pillars. Was the game more balanced then? Sure. Was it more fun? Hell no. You know what's not fun? Playing against Lock/Mage/Paladin where nothing can ever die and if they get one cast off you lose. But you know what is fun? Proc'ing 2 tentacles in a Kidney Shot on my Rogue and watching someone die from 90% while being unable to fight back, that's super fun.

[Kralljin]

Okay? And then everyone who isn't have fun will leave and go do something they find fun, and everyone left will be people who enjoy it. I don't really see how that's a problem, nobody is forcing you to play a game you don't enjoy.

I have the strange assumption that i'm not the only one who doesn't like getting oneshotted.

You're looking for a competitive PvP game yet you're playing something that is fundamentally not competitive.

Arena is fundamentally competitive, hence why there is a ladder and rewards for climbing that ladder.

As I already mentioned, playing my 474 ilvl DH with Twilight Dev 8 was hilariously fun in arena. You know what isn't fun in arena? Playing against old LSD comps that dragged every game out for 15 minutes by hiding behind pillars. Was the game more balanced then? Sure. Was it more fun? Hell no. You know what's not fun? Playing against Lock/Mage/Paladin where nothing can ever die and if they get one cast off you lose. But you know what is fun? Proc'ing 2 tentacles in a Kidney Shot on my Rogue and watching someone die from 90% while being unable to fight back, that's super fun.

Yeah, i'm going to resort to my original statement and say that we end this discussion here.

If you believe that the majority enjoys to win Arena games based on extremely powerful random procs, then i'm going to doubt about this theory.

[Rucati]

I have the strange assumption that i'm not the only one who doesn't like getting oneshotted.

Sure, and I have the strange assumption that I'm not the only one who enjoys one shotting people.

Arena is fundamentally competitive, hence why there is a ladder and rewards for climbing that ladder.

I mean DotA Underlords has a ladder and rewards, I don't think anyone is going to claim that game is competitive. Weird requirements. If a game isn't balanced, which WoW arena isn't, then by my definition it can not be competitive. You can't compete in a game that isn't balanced.

Yeah, i'm going to resort to my original statement and say that we end this discussion here.

If you believe that the majority enjoys to win Arena games based on extremely powerful random procs, then i'm going to doubt about this theory.

I mean I'm about 100% sure the majority enjoys to avoid arena altogether, that's why it's always been a little part of WoW. Let's not pretend anyone other than Destro Locks enjoy that class existing in arenas all expansion, so why not have other things that some people don't enjoy?

[gcsmith]

Why? Because without these borrowed powers most classes and speccs are such crap and garbage, that barely anyone would want to play them. Including in arena and pvp in general.

Yh, the fact DH were designed around artifact weapons keeps them feeling incredibly lackluster. It's so funny, because every expansion adds part of that borrowed power to them permanently. It's as if they're still designing the class.

[Rainyhealz]

You do know things can have prizepools without being competitive right? Like that's such a weird standard. If I tell you to pick a number between 1 and 100 and if you guess right I'll give you $100 does that mean guessing a number is a competitive game because I gave it a prizepool?

Seriously bizarre logic.

Prizepool - the amount of money distributed in a tournament. Your example does not fit the term. Again, sounding foolish. Try again

[dcc626]

does any1 else feel that covenant abilities and legendary effects should be kept out of pvp? That could be the (pvp talents) of pve. We don't need more gimmick 1 shot crap. Every time borrowed power comes in to arena, we have another corruption 1 shot mechanic playhouse.

if you feel this way im sure you were fine with templates in Legion right? because player power shoujld be normalized across the playerbase regardless of gear.

its all or nothing friend.

[enigma77]

Because those things are the main features of the expansion?

Why would they not work? Does my character suddenly forget how to use his abilities when he enters an arena?

- - - Updated - - -

Why does this surprise anyone? PvP is an afterthought for WoW and always has been. Blizzard hates it and always has.

The guy is an absolute idiot who ruined Diablo 3, but this is about Diablo 3.

[Tronski]

Blizzard values player progression and specialization in their PvP modes, even if it makes matches unfair. Lots of players like it too, otherwise no one would PvP in WoW (there are plenty of other games who have nice, fair PvP available).

Knowing this, vote with your wallet.

But we like and play WoW for everything else that's good about it and we want fair PvP as well in WoW.

If nothing else, it should be locked out of ranked pvp. I mean, it's not that long ago even trinkets were disabled in PvP.

[Rucati]

Prizepool - the amount of money distributed in a tournament. Your example does not fit the term. Again, sounding foolish. Try again

Can you not read? I set up my own tournament for guessing the number I'm thinking of, I gave it a prizepool, guessing numbers is now a hyper competitive game according to you.

Please understand how dumb that sounds.

[Rainyhealz]

Can you not read? I set up my own tournament for guessing the number I'm thinking of, I gave it a prizepool, guessing numbers is now a hyper competitive game according to you.

Please understand how dumb that sounds.

It doesn't sound dumb at all. Money talks. Obviously the higher the prize pool of a games tournament, the stronger people care about it. You're just arguing a random example that has nothing to do with the video game community. Again, I should stress that to say wow arena isn't an esport after watching blizzcon after blizzcon arena tourney, is just ridiculous. Please take notes on what people tune in to the most when it comes to your scripted fights pve race or arena tourny

[Rucati]

It doesn't sound dumb at all. Money talks. Obviously the higher the prize pool of a games tournament, the stronger people care about it. You're just arguing a random example that has nothing to do with the video game community. Again, I should stress that to say wow arena isn't an esport after watching blizzcon after blizzcon arena tourney, is just ridiculous. Please take notes on what people tune in to the most when it comes to your scripted fights pve race or arena tourny

The fact that you genuinely think making a tournament for a game means it's competitive is insane. People can play it competitively, but that does not mean the game itself is competitive. I've played very competitive games of Monopoly, I'm not going to sit here and argue that Monopoly is somehow a competitive game.

You bring up Blizzcon as if that's some big deal. It's one "tournament" a year that peaks at like 100k viewers, which is tied with Hearthstone for the lowest of all Blizzard's games and only gets that high because of the rest of the event bringing attention to it. Outside of Blizzcon tournaments barely pass 10k viewers. Like you talk about viewership so much but I guess you forgot that MDI gets more viewers than any of the arena tournaments lol.

I'm not saying you can't take WoW arena seriously and compete in it, I'm saying that the game is not meant to be competitive and therefore is not balanced. I think it seems pretty obvious, because if it WAS supposed to be competitive then Blizzard wouldn't even allow gear to matter in arenas, which they have since BC and which they continue to do into Shadowlands.

[Rainyhealz]

The fact that you genuinely think making a tournament for a game means it's competitive is insane. People can play it competitively, but that does not mean the game itself is competitive. I've played very competitive games of Monopoly, I'm not going to sit here and argue that Monopoly is somehow a competitive game.

You bring up Blizzcon as if that's some big deal. It's one "tournament" a year that peaks at like 100k viewers, which is tied with Hearthstone for the lowest of all Blizzard's games and only gets that high because of the rest of the event bringing attention to it. Outside of Blizzcon tournaments barely pass 10k viewers. Like you talk about viewership so much but I guess you forgot that MDI gets more viewers than any of the arena tournaments lol.

I'm not saying you can't take WoW arena seriously and compete in it, I'm saying that the game is not meant to be competitive and therefore is not balanced. I think it seems pretty obvious, because if it WAS supposed to be competitive then Blizzard wouldn't even allow gear to matter in arenas, which they have since BC and which they continue to do into Shadowlands.

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/wow-blizzcon-2016 here is viewer count of 2016 blizzcon arena.

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/mdi-2018 here is viewer count of 2018 mdi.

2016 blizzcon arena had 75k. Mdi 2018 had 70k at peak. I can go on with more link references, but it gets really annoying talking to someone who assumes without any links to back up their statements. As proven above, viewership for arena has always had a higher count than your carebear scripted fights where an addon does it for you. And yes, monopoly is a competitive game, your arguing against yourself now.

And just as reference, I have been 2.3k arena rating throughout expacs as well as realm first on kel'thuzad from wod through legion raids. I can only assume I am talking to some legion baby who has never experienced an arena season without borrowed power

https://escharts.com/blog/mdi-2020-a...t-score-series

Just to compare 2019 mdi to 2019 arena tournament. About 59k views on arena vs 30 something k on mdi. Game. Set. Match
Thanks for playing

[kaminaris]

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/wow-blizzcon-2016 here is viewer count of 2016 blizzcon arena.

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/mdi-2018 here is viewer count of 2018 mdi.

2016 blizzcon arena had 75k. Mdi 2018 had 70k at peak. I can go on with more link references, but it gets really annoying talking to someone who assumes without any links to back up their statements. As proven above, viewership for arena has always had a higher count than your carebear scripted fights where an addon does it for you. And yes, monopoly is a competitive game, your arguing against yourself now.

And just as reference, I have been 2.3k arena rating throughout expacs as well as realm first on kel'thuzad from wod through legion raids. I can only assume I am talking to some legion baby who has never experienced an arena season without borrowed power

https://escharts.com/blog/mdi-2020-a...t-score-series

Just to compare 2019 mdi to 2019 arena tournament. About 59k views on arena vs 30 something k on mdi. Game. Set. Match
Thanks for playing

Oh boy, you can't seem to understand statistics. Take a look at your link again:
Arena hours watched: 610 705
MDI hours watched: 2 418 414

Average or maximum viewers doesn't matter in the slightest as almost the same amount of people watched MDI as arena but the content that lasted 4 times longer.

Also he is right and you are wrong. Poker isn't a competitive game (because luck is deciding factor) but people play it competitively.

[Ragashii]

Yeah it's about D3 but that ideology no doubt spilled over to other teams at Blizzard.

[Rucati]

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/wow-blizzcon-2016 here is viewer count of 2016 blizzcon arena.

https://escharts.com/tournaments/wow/mdi-2018 here is viewer count of 2018 mdi.

2016 blizzcon arena had 75k. Mdi 2018 had 70k at peak. I can go on with more link references, but it gets really annoying talking to someone who assumes without any links to back up their statements. As proven above, viewership for arena has always had a higher count than your carebear scripted fights where an addon does it for you. And yes, monopoly is a competitive game, your arguing against yourself now.

And just as reference, I have been 2.3k arena rating throughout expacs as well as realm first on kel'thuzad from wod through legion raids. I can only assume I am talking to some legion baby who has never experienced an arena season without borrowed power

https://escharts.com/blog/mdi-2020-a...t-score-series

Just to compare 2019 mdi to 2019 arena tournament. About 59k views on arena vs 30 something k on mdi. Game. Set. Match
Thanks for playing

You're comparing totally different years, like come on. 2016 didn't even have an MDI so every WoW fan that wanted to watch something only had the arena tournament as an option. Look at this year's MDI vs AWC and let me know how that goes for you. Spoiler, you won't like the result.

And for what it's worth I hit 2.2k in BC and I've been 2k+ every expansion on multiple classes. That's why I can say with certainty it isn't meant to be competitive, it's fun sure, but you can't compete in something that's never been balanced. I can only assume you're making things up at this point anyway.

I'm looking forward to you desperately trying and failing to find more articles to prove your point though. But really all you need to do is go to Youtube and search for AWC and MDI and look at the views on the vods, arena tournaments have 100-200k while MDI has 200-300k. And because I already know you'll say it, yes the finals for the AWC spike up to close to 300k, but that's far from the average and the finals of MDI spike up as well.

[Rainyhealz]

You're comparing totally different years, like come on. 2016 didn't even have an MDI so every WoW fan that wanted to watch something only had the arena tournament as an option. Look at this year's MDI vs AWC and let me know how that goes for you. Spoiler, you won't like the result.

And for what it's worth I hit 2.2k in BC and I've been 2k+ every expansion on multiple classes. That's why I can say with certainty it isn't meant to be competitive, it's fun sure, but you can't compete in something that's never been balanced. I can only assume you're making things up at this point anyway.

I'm looking forward to you desperately trying and failing to find more articles to prove your point though. But really all you need to do is go to Youtube and search for AWC and MDI and look at the views on the vods, arena tournaments have 100-200k while MDI has 200-300k. And because I already know you'll say it, yes the finals for the AWC spike up to close to 300k, but that's far from the average and the finals of MDI spike up as well.

Let's start with the links I provided:
If you actually looked at the final link, it compared viewership in 2019 (the same year) and arena tournament had 20k more viewes than mdi. As such, I've brought my links and examples to shut down your foolish remarks.

Let's look at your statement with views higher for mdi average than arena average, then you state that arena viewers actually peak higher during the finals:
Once again, you are fighting against yourself. Most people watch the superbowl, not the 16 other games before the playoffs.

All you have done is a 'trust me, i know what im talking about, go look for yourself' approach. You came in here nitpicking an idea most of us were discussing and agreeing with, and now you are getting shut down. You're better off giving up

[Rucati]

Let's start with the links I provided:
If you actually looked at the final link, it compared viewership in 2019 (the same year) and arena tournament had 20k more viewes than mdi. As such, I've brought my links and examples to shut down your foolish remarks.

Let's look at your statement with views higher for mdi average than arena average, then you state that arena viewers actually peak higher during the finals:
Once again, you are fighting against yourself. Most people watch the superbowl, not the 16 other games before the playoffs.

All you have done is a 'trust me, i know what im talking about, go look for yourself' approach. You came in here nitpicking an idea most of us were discussing and agreeing with, and now you are getting shut down. You're better off giving up

Oh you can't read. Yeah I'm done with you. I don't know if you're purposely misreading what I say or you literally don't understand.

The MDI finals have more viewers than the AWC finals. What I said was the AWC finals had more views than irrelevant days of MDI. Maybe you'll understand this time? I don't know, I doubt it. You say you were in a top guild in WoD but I have no idea how since you'd have been about 7 years old at that time judging by your reading comprehension skills.

[Rainyhealz]

Oh you can't read. Yeah I'm done with you. I don't know if you're purposely misreading what I say or you literally don't understand.

The MDI finals have more viewers than the AWC finals. What I said was the AWC finals had more views than irrelevant days of MDI. Maybe you'll understand this time? I don't know, I doubt it. You say you were in a top guild in WoD but I have no idea how since you'd have been about 7 years old at that time judging by your reading comprehension skills.

I'll continue to wait for those links as proof, gave u mine and still waiting. Your statement that wow pvp isn't competitive is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. I've given examples of viewership (popularity), prize pools (success), etc and yet you cant step down and say "hey maybe I was wrong, my opinioj that wow pvp isn't competitive was disproven by actual evidence"

[Rucati]

I'll continue to wait for those links as proof, gave u mine and still waiting. Your statement that wow pvp isn't competitive is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. I've given examples of viewership (popularity), prize pools (success), etc and yet you cant step down and say "hey maybe I was wrong, my opinioj that wow pvp isn't competitive was disproven by actual evidence"

Oh you're back to prize pools making it competitive. Yeah sorry, I can't, you just keep going in circles. You linked things that literally proved my point and don't understand it. I told you, literally go to youtube and search MDI and AWC and look at viewership. Like I don't get how you don't understand this.

A game that is not balanced and fair can not, by definition, be competitive. There can be tournaments and prize pools and people can watch it, that does not make it competitive. I genuinely can not understand how you're having a hard time understanding something so basic.

[Rainyhealz]

Oh you're back to prize pools making it competitive. Yeah sorry, I can't, you just keep going in circles. You linked things that literally proved my point and don't understand it. I told you, literally go to youtube and search MDI and AWC and look at viewership. Like I don't get how you don't understand this.

A game that is not balanced and fair can not, by definition, be competitive. There can be tournaments and prize pools and people can watch it, that does not make it competitive. I genuinely can not understand how you're having a hard time understanding something so basic.

The argument was against your statement that pvp isnt competitive, i have disproven that. By your
Point that it can't be fair means it can't be competitive? How is it not fair? Everyone has the same choices as someone else. You can run the same comps. Is overwatch competitive? Yes. Are some heroes stronger than others? Yes. Do I have the same opportunity? Yes

Please don't make up random definitions. You're not Webster. There are plenty of unbalanced games that are competitive. I can still be fox McCloud in melee against another fox McCloud in melee. That is still competitive even though the other characters aren't balanced ������