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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Even assuming that every soul slain by Frostmourne is split, why would Ner'zhul's be in it?
    Because of the legion artifact questchain, you see him and Arthas inside the shards of the blade.
    Arthas is beaten and you even see Ner'zhul leave think he even says he will be back.

    And he might be a echo, but you can now also ask yourself if Uther was a echo in halls of reflection or do we now have two Uthers in the Shadowlands after the blade broke in WotlK?

  2. #22
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    It's very hard to believe that Blizzard intended that so far back when they had Bolvar take on the Lich King's voice as he froze in the ICC end cinematic. Bolvar became a much darker person. It's obvious during the DK Legion campaign. Sanity really has nothing to do with it.
    Bolvar says in Shadowlands that the Helm has a powerful influence on whoever wears it, and that he "fought and at times nearly lost himself to it." It's assumed that some of what he said and did in Legion was a product of that influence, like exhorting the Deathlord to attack the Sanctum of the Red Dragonflight and what have you. I was kind of being funny with the "sanity" bit, although being plugged into the Scourge hive-mind can't be pleasant by any means, given the givens.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #23
    Warchief Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ner'zhul is dead, his spirit and essence consumed by Arthas when the two merged and Arthas took control of the merger (as per Arthas: Rise of the Lich King). The only thing remaining of Ner'zhul is an echo within Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, which is simply a memory of his existence and skill-set possessed by the Lich King. For all intents and purposes Ner'zhul is well and truly gone.
    There is a hint in Howling Fjord, a quest were the LK apears and claims to have been a shaman. Arthas was a Paladin, the Shaman was Ner'Zhul. This proves that, whille the Icecrown quests confirm that Arthas wiped him out of is head, they merged to a point that the LK couldn't distinguish betwin Arthas or Ner'Zhul, this could indicate that some sort of Ner'Zhull might have survived.

  4. #24
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Because of the legion artifact questchain, you see him and Arthas inside the shards of the blade.
    Arthas is beaten and you even see Ner'zhul leave think he even says he will be back.

    And he might be a echo, but you can now also ask yourself if Uther was a echo in halls of reflection or do we now have two Uthers in the Shadowlands after the blade broke in WotlK?
    nerzul could not be in the blade because the blade didn't cutl him

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's actually pretty much the synopsis of Arthas, Rise of the Lich King in shorthand, though - not really a retcon of any sort. Arthas and Ner'zhul basically entered a sort of torpor while the two vied for control of their shared body. Arthas won the struggle in the end, and awoke years later to begin setting up the events of WotLK. Ner'zhul's echo that we encounter during the Blades of the Fallen Prince acquisition is all that's left of him, the voice that Arthas claimed to find easy to ignore. Arthas still had access to Ner'zhul's memories and skills, but Ner'zhul's sentience was essentially expunged from the equation.
    Which, kinda, means that Ner'zhul's plan of using Arthas all along was a shitty one.

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Blizz seemingly started to hate the character like no other after WC3. I dont know a single character this important who got shafted, ignored and thrown away like Ner'zhul
    there's a certain human kingdom and its royalty
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves

    My Lightbound Orc and Alteraci Human suggestion thread

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Which, kinda, means that Ner'zhul's plan of using Arthas all along was a shitty one.
    Nah. People just associated the Lich King with Arthas more post WC3, and generally liked the character, while WoW blizz writers wanted to focus in who you are fighting in Wrath and decided it was just easier to make it 'Arthas'.

    Ner'zhul got the shit end of the stick because of a choice to keep the story focus simpler to understand. Same with the whole 'demons go to the twisting nether when killed' explanation.

  8. #28
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    There is a hint in Howling Fjord, a quest were the LK apears and claims to have been a shaman. Arthas was a Paladin, the Shaman was Ner'Zhul. This proves that, whille the Icecrown quests confirm that Arthas wiped him out of is head, they merged to a point that the LK couldn't distinguish betwin Arthas or Ner'Zhul, this could indicate that some sort of Ner'Zhull might have survived.
    That's more the product of the assimilation of Ner'zhul's memories and kills, subsumed by Arthas entirely when he expunged Ner'zhul's sentience. Arthas (as the Lich King) knew everything that Ner'zhul knew, thus his saying that "he was a Shaman once." But Arthas' sentience was the one in full control of the Lich King composite entity and was making the plans, the only thing left of Ner'zhul were his memories.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Arthas "killed" ner'zhul spirit, probably extinguished forever, not even the maw, just ceased to exist
    He did not. It's some vague sentence in a book without a real explanation.

    Arthas' humanity was also supposedly destroyed in the book and yet his humanity shows up while questing in Icecrown in the form of a kid. Afterwards Tirion destroys Arthas' humanity again in the form of his heart. And even after all that Arthas' humanity still shows up when talking to his father after his defeat and losing the helmet.

    Given that logic Ner'zhul should also be around.

  10. #30
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Which, kinda, means that Ner'zhul's plan of using Arthas all along was a shitty one.
    It didn't work to his advantage, no. Ner'zhul thought he could overpower and control Arthas the same way he had the rest of the Scourge and his agents in the Cult of the Damned, such as how he suborned and enslaved Kel'Thuzad in Road to Damnation. He just so happened to bite off more than he could chew, unfortunately; and Arthas was able to overwhelm him and take full control as the Lich King. Part of this may have been driven by hastiness on his part, as the releasing of Frostmourne and the damage Illidan did to the Frozen Throne using the Eye of Sargeras weakened him quite a lot - he needed a new and stronger vessel quickly to avoid his essence leeching away, so he may have tried to suborn Arthas too soon or too hastily, which ultimately spelled his defeat.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Which, kinda, means that Ner'zhul's plan of using Arthas all along was a shitty one.
    It wasn't. Blizzard had plans for Ner'zhul but had to change them when Arthas' voice actor demanded better payment.

    In the Wrath announcement trailer you can clearly hear Ner'zhul's voice near the end. It's the line "one true king", with the last word clearly sounding like an Orc.

    It explains the ties to Ner'zhul and Shamanism in the Alliance starting zone as it was created early on before the argument with Arthas' voice actor.

    When Arthas' voice actor caused a stir Blizzard dropped the Arthas/Ner'zhul storyline entirely and went for a boring Lich King is just pure evil storyline and gave him a generic evil voice.

    Then they had to write the book to explain the poor decision. It was entirely done to not pay the poor dude a fair wage.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nah. People just associated the Lich King with Arthas more post WC3, and generally liked the character, while WoW blizz writers wanted to focus in who you are fighting in Wrath and decided it was just easier to make it 'Arthas'.

    Ner'zhul got the shit end of the stick because of a choice to keep the story focus simpler to understand. Same with the whole 'demons go to the twisting nether when killed' explanation.
    this
    its probably the part of the lore that pisses me off the most to this day. ner'zhul in WC3 was portrayed as a mastermind who orchestrated the whole thing, and won in the end by having arthas merge with him. he got literally everything he wanted. the bad guy won, arthas was fully lost, thats what made the ending so great

    in comes wotlk, blizz realizes that arthas is the insanely popular character, and with one big swoop, ner'zhul gets wasted and arthas is the big bad lich king now. arthas, the dude who was nothing more than a puppet manipulated by ner'zhul for the entirety of WC3
    its really hard to swallow

    edit: also nevermind that the original plate of the damned is completely swiped under the rug. ner'zhul was bound not only to the helm but the entire armor. and its not arthas's dk armor, as WC3 reforged showed. but the fckn thing just completely disappeared seemingly
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-09-06 at 04:06 PM.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  13. #33
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    It wasn't. Blizzard had plans for Ner'zhul but had to change them when Arthas' voice actor demanded better payment.

    In the Wrath announcement trailer you can clearly hear Ner'zhul's voice near the end. It's the line "one true king", with the last word clearly sounding like an Orc.

    It explains the ties to Ner'zhul and Shamanism in the Alliance starting zone as it was created early on before the argument with Arthas' voice actor.

    When Arthas' voice actor caused a stir Blizzard dropped the Arthas/Ner'zhul storyline entirely and went for a boring Lich King is just pure evil storyline and gave him a generic evil voice.

    Then they had to write the book to explain the poor decision. It was entirely done to not pay the poor dude a fair wage.
    I doubt issues with a VA would make them actually change the a pre-planned storyboard for the game. VA's change all the time, pretty much randomly between expansions or even content patches, and none of these changes require changes to the planned story. They just switch actors, and few people notice or care.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #34
    Problem is that this new Blizzard is raping lore that old Blizzard build and they keep changing it just so it fit for new expansions

  15. #35
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    He did not. It's some vague sentence in a book without a real explanation.

    Arthas' humanity was also supposedly destroyed in the book and yet his humanity shows up while questing in Icecrown in the form of a kid. Afterwards Tirion destroys Arthas' humanity again in the form of his heart. And even after all that Arthas' humanity still shows up when talking to his father after his defeat and losing the helmet.

    Given that logic Ner'zhul should also be around.
    i don't think its vague when metzen or other dev said they are done with ner'zhul, aka, ner'zhul is done forever.

    they can retcon and bring him back but right now he is done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    It wasn't. Blizzard had plans for Ner'zhul but had to change them when Arthas' voice actor demanded better payment.

    In the Wrath announcement trailer you can clearly hear Ner'zhul's voice near the end. It's the line "one true king", with the last word clearly sounding like an Orc.

    It explains the ties to Ner'zhul and Shamanism in the Alliance starting zone as it was created early on before the argument with Arthas' voice actor.

    When Arthas' voice actor caused a stir Blizzard dropped the Arthas/Ner'zhul storyline entirely and went for a boring Lich King is just pure evil storyline and gave him a generic evil voice.

    Then they had to write the book to explain the poor decision. It was entirely done to not pay the poor dude a fair wage.
    not doubting you, but how the voice actors wanting his payment somehow change the history? what went different? i rly can make the link

    and yep that is totally ner'zhul in the end.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Arthas "killed" ner'zhul spirit, probably extinguished forever, not even the maw, just ceased to exist
    "However, the consumption was not complete. Ner'zhul was buried and struggled to wake up to regain control. Arthas drew on the orc's guilt over his role in the downfall of his race to trap him into a downward spiral of despair until nothing remained but a wail of sorrow" chronicles 3 its seems that a small part of him still was there.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ner'zhul is dead, his spirit and essence consumed by Arthas when the two merged and Arthas took control of the merger (as per Arthas: Rise of the Lich King). The only thing remaining of Ner'zhul is an echo within Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, which is simply a memory of his existence and skill-set possessed by the Lich King. For all intents and purposes Ner'zhul is well and truly gone.

    The third chronicle said that Ner'zhul wasn't killed but put into a state of depression, but still remained within the helm.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's actually pretty much the synopsis of Arthas, Rise of the Lich King in shorthand, though - not really a retcon of any sort. Arthas and Ner'zhul basically entered a sort of torpor while the two vied for control of their shared body. Arthas won the struggle in the end, and awoke years later to begin setting up the events of WotLK. Ner'zhul's echo that we encounter during the Blades of the Fallen Prince acquisition is all that's left of him, the voice that Arthas claimed to find easy to ignore. Arthas still had access to Ner'zhul's memories and skills, but Ner'zhul's sentience was essentially expunged from the equation.
    I will not be surprised if we learn in SLs that Ner'zhul left a piece of his soul attached to Uther (through precisely the wound that Frostmourne dealt him) and this will explain questionable choices of the old Paladin.

    The story is better without mind control and corruption though, so don't take this as my wish for what will happen, but I have a feeling that all characters connected to the Lich King will have a part to play.

  19. #39
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    The third chronicle said that Ner'zhul wasn't killed but put into a state of depression, but still remained within the helm.
    "Nothing remained [of Ner'zhul] but a wail of sorrow," is pretty much conclusive that all that was left of him was the memory, the echo we later see in Legion. Adding to that the developers' statement of purpose from the BlizzCon Q&A it becomes pretty clear that the intent is that Ner'zhul is functionally dead. Arthas tore him asunder, ripping away both his sanity and his essence, with only that vestige of an echo left.

    But this is also World of Warcraft so I think they *always* seek to leave a door open, if only the tiniest fraction so to speak, for practically any character to conceivably return.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-09-07 at 12:00 PM.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #40
    Banned KALAMITY's Avatar
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    he ded.


    he dieded from arthas.


    ...


    I suppose it's hard to determine if the "echo" we encounter of Ner'zhul inside of the shards of Frostmourne (during the Frost DK Artifact Weapon quest) is enough of his spirit/soul to be considered active. Personally I just think it's nothing more than an "echo" from the remains of what essence the Lich King had within the sword.


    I've always been under the impression that the manifestation of Ner'zhul that was slain by Arthas inside of his own head (in his dreams?) during 'Rise of the Lich King' was the last amount of Ner'zhul possible. The last remaining aspect of his soul/spirit and for that to be slain would be to destroy him permanently.


    Much like killing a demon soul in the Twisting Nether permanently destroys it - effectively making it nothing - the same could be said about Ner'zhul's spirit/soul. Or at least how I interpret it.

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