Development Update: The Road to Shadowlands

[Nuciek]

I guess all I can say based on what they wrote about Covenants is that I am not buying Shadowlands until they decouple player abilities from them. Shame, as in many ways I was hoping it would be a back-to-form expansion from Blizzard.

Are you also waiting for them to decouple player abilities from classes? Because that's basicly how they treat covenants and I can tell you right now that they will not change that design ever. People have to stop thinking it's another heart of azeroth or something like that, because it's closer to spec/class in the sense that they don't want you to switch them. They want to you pick something and stick with it for the most part.

[Swnem]

They don't get it. I agree with everything until here:

Rather than add yet another layer to that decision matrix, we’re trying to do something different here, and let players more meaningfully define their character’s identity and set themselves apart from others who play the same class. And that identity entails a blend of aesthetic preference, narrative experience, and mechanical strengths and weaknesses. From the earliest sketched designs of the covenant system, our goal was for the answer to “what do you play?” in Shadowlands to be “Kyrian paladin” or “Venthyr paladin” rather than just “paladin.” And given the central role of combat and power progression to World of Warcraft as a whole, achieving that goal for most players requires that there be player power implications to covenant choice.

This is at odds with the game they have. No, there won't be a Venthyr paladin and a Kyrian paladin. There will be a good paladin for the content being run and a bad paladin for the content being run. You are not adding choices, you are adding wrong choices aka traps.
For this to work devs, you have to break all addons and all first and third party sites that allow you to track performance and maximize it. It is impossible to make both of these things work. You can't have both, it's impossible. Choose one.
Make up your mind on what kind of game you want to make.

[Nuciek]

They don't get it. I agree with everything until here:


This is at odds with the game they have. No, there won't be a Venthyr paladin and a Kyrian paladin. There will be a good paladin for the content being run and a bad paladin for the content being run. You are not adding choices, you are adding wrong choices aka traps.
For this to work devs, you have to break all addons and all first and second party sites that allow you to track performance. It is impossible to make both of these things work. You can't have both, it's impossible. Choose one.

Just like it's impossible to have 11 classes in one game?

[Swnem]

Just like it's impossible to have 11 classes in one game?

Its' not the same is it? Different classes bring different utility/buffs. If they didn't, people would stack the same class. Which btw, was already happening.

There are several specs considered "dead" or "bad". This is not new. It just results in angst to players of those specs cause they have a harder time getting into content. So, congrats, you confirmed the point.

[Nnyco]

PvP stats PLEASE. It solves every problem. The complaining will vanish if they do JUST THAT.

And it will add multiple problems. Not to mention that stats that are only working in one type of content are extremly stupid.

[Crixes1]

Ima be honest, I miss Cata gearing. Alot of things had sockets. It felt like JC actually had some worth and it felt amazing to socket a chest or pants with 3 gems and a enchant. Like so satisfying buffing up that bad boy. Now just a gem for one piece of gear and its random af. Ugh. I want it to have some value, ya know?

[Musta]

Can't wait for them to pull the ripcord in 9.1

completely this. I wonder if they are not just pulling right now cuz they couldnt make the changes in time. Totally possible tbh.

[Fawkess]

I really hope they can make Jewelcrafting a profitable profession again, Gems this expansion have just had no worth at all besides green and red ones for rings

[goldentforce]

When Ion saids they will make all the covenant choices viable, I assume he means you can do content with them. However viability is relative here to the other options, not whether the content can actually be done with them (you can beat content with unoptimal builds). If one ability is just doing 5% more damage and the other abilities only bring damage (this is the case for most), the one doing more damage is more viable than the others, and the playerbase will see the others as less viable. It has been objectively true that there has been strictly better legion legendaries, corruptions, azerite gear, essences. You can check sims/progress meters,etc. of these things and see that they have never been balanced. The same will apply to covenants/conduits/soulbinds. It is inevitable and unlike the other systems acquisition is not the issue (ap grinds/rng drops,etc.) but the options are forced upon you. This is equally bad, in these other systems you could target or eventually get the best piece, but now you are giving up an rpg experience and leaving progression in a covenant for performance. Letting people choose abilities would allow people to use each set in the circumstances that could enable them and all the abilities could be more powerful. Because they are locked off by choice, it means all the abilities will be unbalanced then nerfed to be as close to irrelevant as possible so there is no "wrong choice". Whats the point of these systems if they are just going to be nerfed and stomped so they are less problematic and less fun, when if you could switch between abilities can have niche situations where they are powerful and useful (i.e nightfae dk is absurdly strong cause strength amp/dr scale greatly with all the specs, and necrolord grabby hands is mostly a utility spell. If you switch between, situations where the utility makes an encounter easier you can now use, however if you can't switch giving up strength amp/dr for vast majority of content is a poor decision).

If blizzard want each character to be a little more differant than players of the same spec/talent builds, they should of made a gameplay only subspec system that is more interactive than 1 class ability, 1 generic ability, trinket/azerite procs in soulbinds so the choice is more meaningful, has a variety of tools and impact, and doesn't hurt the story/cosmetic/aesthetic pros of the covenant system.

[letssee]

lol

retail...

10/char

[Nuciek]

Its' not the same is it? Different classes bring different utility/buffs. If they didn't, people would stack the same class. Which btw, was already happening.

There are several specs considered "dead" or "bad". This is not new. It just results in angst to players of those specs cause they have a harder time getting into content. So, congrats, you confirmed the point.

May I only remind you that the game was more alive and had more players when there were more "dead" and "bad" specs in the game?

Balance is crucial, but it's not everything, just like WoW has proved to be the case for plenty of years. BFA was actually one of the best balanced expansions in the history and is also considered one of the worst expansions in history. Of course not because of balance, but as I said, balance sometimes has to take a hit for the gameplay to be better in general.

[Katchii]

This is at odds with the game they have. No, there won't be a Venthyr paladin and a Kyrian paladin. There will be a good paladin for the content being run and a bad paladin for the content being run. You are not adding choices, you are adding wrong choices aka traps.
For this to work devs, you have to break all addons and all first and third party sites that allow you to track performance and maximize it. It is impossible to make both of these things work. You can't have both, it's impossible. Choose one.
Make up your mind on what kind of game you want to make.

It's really not their fault people can only see "good" and "bad" paladin based on their choice and strictly on performance alone.

The problem is that a non insignificant portion of the player base, you included apparently, subscribe to this notion that ONLY the top performing build is viable at all, and anything other than that build is complete trash.

This notion, in and of itself, is trash and needs to die a horrible death. Because it's completely false.

[Sithalos]

Imagine thinking that a stupid hashtag movement was going to change anything. LOL

[AngerFork]

Thoughts on each item posted here:

9.0.2 - Makes sense, it seems like a good idea to give the team as much time as possible to finish up the 51-60 experience while letting the other items come into the game with the pre-patch. I do feel they should move the SL build up to 9.0.3 at least though. System-wise, I could see confusion coming in from trying to go from 9.0.2.x to 9.0.1.x. Better to give the later version the higher number.

Alt leveling - I like this setup. I suspect for mass alt leveling, it will allow for a different set of experiences that can be built out throughout the expansion. If done with proper gearing, it could fix some of the weird gear issues alts tend to see in BfA.

Torghast - Another good change. That tutorial section will feel like a pain on your 20th run in Torghast. Best to just get to the action after completing the tutorial piece.

Covenants - Not as sure on this one. While I understand the logic behind "Kyrian Paladin" vs. "Venthyr Paladin", the problem is that it isn't really that much of a change. It's one ability which will be judged to be right or wrong. Additionally, since it is easy to swap out covenants, it will be far easier for players to bully others into being a "Kyrian Paladin" if a "Venthyr Paladin" has 2 DPS less on a Patchwerk sim. I respect them for trying something different and I don't believe pulling the ripcord is the right move, but I don't see this experiment working out the same way they do.

PvP - Not really much here aside from a "looking at it" post. Totally get it. The wrong solution could mean that PvP is the default "right" answer for gearing, or that PvP gear is once again far below PvE gear in PvP. Hoping they get a good solution, not sure they will.

Sockets - I've been on record in the past as stating that if Blizz could do so without massive community uproar, they would eliminate a few professions such as Jewelcrafting and Inscription. IMO, this is further proof that they would love to just get rid of gems as is and remove the randomization, but they aren't sure how to handle the JC profession otherwise. It seems weird to me that gem slots have to be randomized rather than just added in like they were in BC. I have no clue why they opted to go away from that system.

[Pattyz]

And it will add multiple problems. Not to mention that stats that are only working in one type of content are extremly stupid.

Only one type of content? Theres 2 types in total.. PVE and PVP. So having a PVP stat would cover a large portion of the entire game..arenas, BG'S, World PVP etc.

[Nnyco]

Only one type of content? Theres 2 types in total.. PVE and PVP. So having a PVP stat would cover a large portion of the entire game..arenas, BG'S, World PVP etc.

So wheres my raid power, my m+ power, my wq power?

[Dartz1979]

when is the pre patch gonna be though

[Mafic]

I guess all I can say based on what they wrote about Covenants is that I am not buying Shadowlands until they decouple player abilities from them. Shame, as in many ways I was hoping it would be a back-to-form expansion from Blizzard.

That is a smart decision IMVHO.

[Fkiolaris]

Are you also waiting for them to decouple player abilities from classes? Because that's basicly how they treat covenants and I can tell you right now that they will not change that design ever. People have to stop thinking it's another heart of azeroth or something like that, because it's closer to spec/class in the sense that they don't want you to switch them. They want to you pick something and stick with it for the most part.

They can treat them whichever way they want, it's their game at the end of the day. That does not make it the same though (covenants and classes) and that's my decision to make as a paying customer. So we agreed to disagree and I am simply taking my money and time elsewhere. All the best.

[Queen of Hamsters]

7 weeks left, no prepatch date... Wtf?