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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RamenBowl View Post
    It returns a layer of foresight and awareness to all three specs. I'm especially happy it's returned to Assassination; this is the most engaging Assassin's rotation has been in years.
    Curious how you think it makes assassinations rotation more engaging. To me, it just feels like a button you press to attack faster, and thus deal more damage, that's all. If they wanted to un-prune, they should have brought back something like gouge so at least some decision making could be made in M+/pvp since gouge is a costly ability in terms of resources.

    SnD is acceptable to return for outlaw and especially sub, and i've been playing around a lot on the ptr, but I just don't feel it for assassination. At most it will increase the skill floor slightly but do nothing to increase assassin's ceiling.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Curious how you think it makes assassinations rotation more engaging. To me, it just feels like a button you press to attack faster, and thus deal more damage, that's all. If they wanted to un-prune, they should have brought back something like gouge so at least some decision making could be made in M+/pvp since gouge is a costly ability in terms of resources.

    SnD is acceptable to return for outlaw and especially sub, and i've been playing around a lot on the ptr, but I just don't feel it for assassination. At most it will increase the skill floor slightly but do nothing to increase assassin's ceiling.
    I believe the same, the difference will be negligible and at the same time it will just make the spec feel less fluid and less "direct". At least in WotLK its duration was getting refreshed by envenom, which was nice in my opinion. It's not like it's hard to keep track of it, it just takes away some of the fun of playing the spec.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-09-11 at 08:03 AM.

  3. #23
    Having played rogue since vanilla I'm conflicted. It's not bad, but I'd rather have something else to make rotation more engaging and fun or at least have it implemented differently.

  4. #24
    Played rogue since vanilla WoW, only as combat (then outlaw) and have always liked and used SnD, even taking the talent when I knew it was a DPS loss.

    It's not just a simple DPS buff, the extra attack speed proc's more combat potency giving more energy and faster gameplay... that's why I always played combat, I like that fast spammy button pressing and SnD enhances that play style. They even added that bonus energy regeneration to SnD which makes playing with it even faster now. So to say it's just a blind DPS buff that doesn't change how the character plays is simply wrong.

    I never liked the randomness of RtB so I also like what they've done with that now making it have a c/d. Haven't played on the PTR but I like what I'm reading about these changes.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Curious how you think it makes assassinations rotation more engaging. To me, it just feels like a button you press to attack faster

    but I just don't feel it for assassination
    And Assassination is very much about "energy pooling". Attacking faster doesn't even make sense in relation to playstyle for this spec.

  6. #26
    DISCLAIMER: all personal opinions here.

    SnD is for sure an iconic rogue ability. Yet, it's from day 1 that i always thought it was not engaging or didn't feel powerful enough.

    And doesn't matter if it's in PvE where you have to keep it up 100% of the time or if it's PvP and it's actually a strategy choice you have to make on the fly: it simply doesn't feel impactful. "press this to attack slightly faster" doesn't convey the idea to me.

    If they made it something like a 30/45 second cd and made you attack at a very increased pace for a small timeframe, like 8/10 seconds, i would find it much better.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  7. #27
    Never wanted it back. There was a good reason so many of these abilities were removed and i feel like its a major mistake just flip flopping between appealing to players who enjoy bloated specs and players who enjoy streamlined specs.

    Slap it in as a talent for players that enjoy that shit and allow players to choose. Then outright remove it after nobody picks it because its just awful.

    Though they could stand to build on their most recent design philosophy: add an activated portion to an otherwise dull keypress. If perhaps activating slice and dice resulted in the rogue releasing a flurry of slashes followed by that buff, it might not seem like such a dull ability

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    DISCLAIMER: all personal opinions here.

    SnD is for sure an iconic rogue ability. Yet, it's from day 1 that i always thought it was not engaging or didn't feel powerful enough.

    And doesn't matter if it's in PvE where you have to keep it up 100% of the time or if it's PvP and it's actually a strategy choice you have to make on the fly: it simply doesn't feel impactful. "press this to attack slightly faster" doesn't convey the idea to me.

    If they made it something like a 30/45 second cd and made you attack at a very increased pace for a small timeframe, like 8/10 seconds, i would find it much better.
    A lot of our old theorycrafters--I think most now gone for a while--complained bitterly about how passive our damage was between poisons and white damage (slice and dice).

    I really think bringing it back is a pretty negative change.

    I think Coldkill's idea would have been a better way to bring it back.

    I was also not a fan of a maintenance buff since I don't see why those can't also have a damage component (like Rupture giving energy).

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Good Now they can just kill off the dumbass pirate spec and just bring back proper Combat with talents for specific weapon types.
    Waheyyy because "Fury Warrior But Fast" is such an interesting spec idea
    Attention all members of staff, corporate asks that in these trying pandemic times we stay safe and avoid spreading the virus, therefore please remain at your desks at all times, you ARE allowed to contact friends and family using company phones, but you must always maintain productivity. Leaving your desk will result in a written warning, and leaving the office will result in immediate termination.

  10. #30
    No.

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    A lot of our old theorycrafters--I think most now gone for a while--complained bitterly about how passive our damage was between poisons and white damage (slice and dice).

    I really think bringing it back is a pretty negative change.

    I think Coldkill's idea would have been a better way to bring it back.

    I was also not a fan of a maintenance buff since I don't see why those can't also have a damage component (like Rupture giving energy).
    Increasing white damage is a good way to increase the skill floor of the spec, though. I don't know if that was a problem for Assassination, but if it was, this would be a valid way to help solve it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Waheyyy because "Fury Warrior But Fast" is such an interesting spec idea
    Fury with stealth, cloak, gouge, sap, cheap shot, blind, shroud, tricks, feint, vanish... yeah mate, I'm good with that.

    The fact that you imply that the difference between Fury and Outlaw is the pirat theme just shows your own ignorance.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-09-11 at 07:19 PM.

  13. #33
    I've never been a fan of Slice and Dice as a CP finisher. It feels bad pressing that button instead of one that deals damage.

    I would however be fine with it being a CP generating ability that cost energy.

  14. #34
    Glad to have it to use instead of RTB. Hated the randomness of that ability. My luck was terrible, almost always got crap rolls.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    A lot of our old theorycrafters--I think most now gone for a while--complained bitterly about how passive our damage was between poisons and white damage (slice and dice).
    And that was when snd was 30-40% Now assassin has 70% snd lol.

    More passive dmg is never good there's a reason it got removed in the first place.

    Also something to point out is assassin has never had to maintain snd the whole time it has been a fully viable dps spec. Wrath- cut to the chase, cata- cut to the chase, mop - cut to the chase, wod- made passive don't even have to use it at all anymore, legion- removed completely, bfa- doesn't exist.

    Now they want you to fully maintain it on one of the slowest specs in the game in shadowlands...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Fury with stealth, cloak, gouge, sap, cheap shot, blind, shroud, tricks, feint, vanish... yeah mate, I'm good with that.

    The fact that you imply that the difference between Fury and Outlaw is the pirat theme just shows your own ignorance.
    I mean if you care more about what it can do then what's the problem with it being a pirate, able to do those things?

    All of what you've just mentioned fits the pirate theme.

    I never said that mechanically they were the same, just that thematically combat and fury differ only in combat being quicker, and fighting dirtier
    Attention all members of staff, corporate asks that in these trying pandemic times we stay safe and avoid spreading the virus, therefore please remain at your desks at all times, you ARE allowed to contact friends and family using company phones, but you must always maintain productivity. Leaving your desk will result in a written warning, and leaving the office will result in immediate termination.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I mean if you care more about what it can do then what's the problem with it being a pirate, able to do those things?

    All of what you've just mentioned fits the pirate theme.

    I never said that mechanically they were the same, just that thematically combat and fury differ only in combat being quicker, and fighting dirtier
    Okay, but that is bullshit anyway. Who cares. Outlaw/Combat and Fury plays completely different from each other and have completely different toolsets. So I don't give a shit about some stupid pirat theme and RNG based abilities. Those can get thrown in the trash for all I care.

  18. #38
    It's an old and flavorful ability that interacts with Outlaw and Sub fine. It doesn't quite fit in Assassination but that could be fixed.

  19. #39
    I mean, it -does- interact with Sub's passive Combo point regen, since autohits give us points.
    You actually -feel- the difference. That is, if you aren't spamming shadowdance with the broken legendary atm.

    I can fully agree that it sucks for Assa though. If you're lucky enough, it could be a waste of combopoints/energy, leading to a DPS loss, so you can choose to ignore it, and only use it on flavourful fights, that need for (some) reason alot of auto-hits to fill a bar, and the like.
    Or get slapped a minute long cd on abilities, so you don't waste Energy on waiting, like Ra-den's trashmobs.

    Edit: And ofc, it replaces RTB as combo spender, as many before have mentioned already. It likely won't be too hard of a change for Outlaw.
    Last edited by LordTakeo; 2020-09-11 at 11:36 PM.

  20. #40
    Glad RTB is gone and replaced with SnD.

    Combat rogues now have the option if they want RNG or not, it's perfect.

    For assass and sub rogues, i can understand.

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