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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    You are right, I am frustrated. And you know why I am frustrated? Because your reply is exactly how the hell people who are in agreement with blizzard's covenant system act towards people who dislike it. I am fucking done with people who think that I am stripping away their damn choice, for wanting choice in the game.

    The 2 week grind system will keep you out of pugs no matter how you sugar coat it, because the players will just tell you 'just go swap covenant if you want an invite', just like they declined me from pugs due to being a warlock before building a super high rio score.

    So in the end, even with forced choice, people will still decline you for picking the 'wrong' choice defined by the meta community. Is it wrong for people to be like that? Yes, but this is 2k20, and that's how people act. Get on with the times. I personally don't care about what's optimal, but the way blizzard forces to to pick ability OR looks gives me literally no choice, and strips me the possibility of finally having my blood elf look vampire themed.

    What I am asking is for a decoupling of the abilities, and the looks, without necessarily wanting to freely swap between abilities. I don't mind picking an ability and having to regrind to get a new one, but I mind having only one fun ability, but that fun ability not being with the covenant my character resonates with. And I am pretty sure that the way I want things to work does not directly mess with the fun of anyone else.

    Because as I said before, whether you pick the ability that matches your character's looks or whether you pick the fun ability, chances are you will always be asked in a pug to have the right ability or to be kicked. And in that sense, you are just locking either minmaxers, or people like me, from actually making a meaningful choice that is FUN, just because you think that being forced into that choice will invite you to more pugs.

    So if anything, you, and the people who are in agreement with the covenant system as it is now are selfish, and act as if you are the only ones who matter.
    Who said I was in agreement with it? I never actually stated how I felt about covenants. Blizzard has decided how to proceed with it's covenants. I will adapt to what is ultimate put in front of me. IN other words, I am indifferent to how Blizzard is operating. As it is, you are still the one who is selfish. You continue to insult and denigrate anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with your opinion. You "gimmie gimmie, now, now" mentality has been very bad for the game. God forbid you actually have consequences for your choice and have to actually sacrifice. YOu are going to have a real hard time in the real world when you come to the realization everything isn't handed to you and you will have to sacrifice somethings to get other things.

  2. #202
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Your analogy is frankly garbage, because deciding whether to buy either of the two is like comparing two COVENANT ABILITIES. It does not make sense to buy both cars, just like it wouldn't make sense to get both abilities obviously. What I want is similar to ''I want to buy this new car because my old one is in a bad state, but I also want to re-innovate my kitchen because it is also in a bad state'. I have to make a choice because both require money, but I will still get both down the line by saving up money.

    WoW in shadowlands will ask me to EITHER buy a new car, OR to re-innovate my kitchen, no questions asked, and if you don't get that, it's not my problem. I still stand by my claim that you talk bullshit if you think that WoW needs more consequence. If you want decisions, then pick your class/race, pick if you will pursue gladiator, top 100 raider, or do +28 keys in time. If you want decisions, decide whether you want to spend your time farming a massive amount of gold for a brutosaur, or farm the crab mount in Naz'jatar.

    Also, you were the one who couldn't stand my opinion, I initially tried to explain to someone who seemed pretty adamant about blizz's decision being correct that I am in a troublesome situation for a damn game, and you are the one who decided to cherry pick my reply, and disagree with it, with pretty shitty examples.

    Finally, I think I get enough challenge in the game by aiming for top 100 every tier, I don't want anything the easy way, and I've been working towards gladiator steadily, which I hope to finally achieve in first season of SL. I am far from the person who wants things easily handed down to them.
    Now leave me be, as I was already informed by someone that you are one of the posters not to be messed with, as you are notorious for the way you speak in mmo champion. Have a good day, and let's agree to disagree.

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    While I agree with that, the covenants were made with the idea that you play them to identify with them through their looks, lore, and cosmetic rewards. It has been said again and again, yet they decide not to create evenly FUN (not balanced, just fun) abilities, and make it impossible for some of us to pick what covenant we actually like.

    I personally really love venthyr, but in my opinion, venthyr covenant ability for warlocks is one of the most boring spells I've seen in game (not to mention very unsatisfying due to random nature of curse application). I am not saying that blizzard MUST be able to balance 48 abilities both in numbers, and fun, but I am saying that if they can't pull off something this ambitious, I'd suggest either of the two routes:

    a) Pick an ability from the covenant you want, while the looks of a different covenant if you so choose, and still have to grind to swap either or
    b) Make all 4 abilities available in a special talent row, and give them 4 different colors, to match the covenant you commit to, in order to allow people to relate strongly to a single identify, while allowing everyone to pick what is fun.

    The reason I want this is because I've NEVER been forced before in the game to commit to a PART of my class. And no, committing to a spec is not the same, because playing a spec at 95% of its effectiveness is as easy as flipping a switch nowadays, and been like that since at least MoP. There are some different secondary priorities/etc, but it never stopped me from playing all my specs for hardcore progression. Covenants will though force me to either pick fun, OR looks. Also I do not think that any spec has visual effects that don't perfectly portray the spec's fantasy.

    I've never decided to not play a spec because I thought that its spell effects did not fit its fantasy.

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    That's fair, and thank you for coming back to me with this. I am completely fine with being locked down to a specific spell, and having to grind to change that. What I am not fine is to have to get the spell I find fun, yet not being able to identify with that specific covenant, pretty much locking me out of potential cool mog that I like to use (or mounts/back equipment), simply because blizzard decided to design abilities the way they did.

    You admitted that there are a few problems with the system, and I am glad we agree on that at least. My main point is that I just hate the idea of not being able to choose what's most fun for me, and also what looks best. I've always had the ability to choose my favourite spec that I wanted to play mainly, and the mog to match it. I am not convinced that the positives outweight the negatives in this case, and if anything, to me it feels like covenants completely miss the mark with what they intended to do when it comes to me personally which was ''Commit to what your character resonates with''. I am forced to forsake fun gameplay if I want her appearance to be the way I imagine my character to be.

    Or I have to forsake character identity if I want gameplay fun.
    I get what they are trying to do. But the kyrian ability (I am a monk main) is just so... underwhelming. I will play with it and see how it feels before passing judgement. That being said, I will probably pick an option that both the ability and the visuals appeal to me. But also, if BRM is already pretty cool to play, I might not care that much about picking up a new ability. That is why it's a little complicated to judge it without playing it too. So it will all depends on how it works.

    If you are this much in doubt, I advise you to pick considering visuals, since when you leave shadowlands behind, we are unlikely to keep the covenant ability. Or you can do it like me and choose the one that both the ability and the visuals match, even if it is not 100%
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Who said I was in agreement with it? I never actually stated how I felt about covenants. Blizzard has decided how to proceed with it's covenants. I will adapt to what is ultimate put in front of me. IN other words, I am indifferent to how Blizzard is operating. As it is, you are still the one who is selfish. You continue to insult and denigrate anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with your opinion. You "gimmie gimmie, now, now" mentality has been very bad for the game. God forbid you actually have consequences for your choice and have to actually sacrifice. YOu are going to have a real hard time in the real world when you come to the realization everything isn't handed to you and you will have to sacrifice somethings to get other things.
    Funny thing is that it's precisely because I am already dealing with a lot of tough choices in the real world, both working and actually studying on an MSc course, that I don't want to deal with such shitty consequences in one of my favourite games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    I get what they are trying to do. But the kyrian ability (I am a monk main) is just so... underwhelming. I will play with it and see how it feels before passing judgement. That being said, I will probably pick an option that both the ability and the visuals appeal to me. But also, if BRM is already pretty cool to play, I might not care that much about picking up a new ability. That is why it's a little complicated to judge it without playing it too. So it will all depends on how it works.

    If you are this much in doubt, I advise you to pick considering visuals, since when you leave shadowlands behind, we are unlikely to keep the covenant ability. Or you can do it like me and choose the one that both the ability and the visuals match, even if it is not 100%
    The way you approach it is totally fair mate, and yeah, I can imagine it is difficult to judge without trying it much. Do you have access to beta? Just curious as I have had beta access since a week after it went into beta mode, and been extensively testing all 4 warlock abilities in m+ and raid testing in order to come to the conclusion I did.

    With that being said, the visuals carrying post expansion point you made is rather interesting, and I will defo consider it, and if I don't do it at launch, I will do it at the very least at the end of the expansion. Thank you for giving me this idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Did you seriously use the "mom's basement" argument. How old are you? If you're above 20, you must have some serious insecurity issues.
    Old enough to bite back when someone decides to bring real life arguments into a game and try to say 'If it's okay to get fucked irl, you should bow down your head and let it happen in game too, and pretend you get stimulation out of it'. Because that's how it feels to be told (with a rather bad analogy imo), that just because something similar happens irl, so should it ingame.

    To me that sounds like someone who has never had to deal with actual consequences irl, if they are seeking that thrill in a game. And it's not about having stuff easily handed to me, I am an extremely competitive player and I am the most joyful at the hardest of challenges (yet I don't bring the min max argument in, as I don't think it's that big for me), I simply want to both have gameplay fun, and my character's identity to be properly represented in game, just like I've been trying to do the past... 8 years in WoW. And suddenly it's taken away from me, and then I get people in forums who tell me 'I want consequences in my video game'.

    Well why don't you (you in general, not you specifically), just stick to whatever covenant you like, even if there is free switching? You will then have your consequences that you love so much, and I will get to have a blast with both fun gameplay, and cool character identity, even if these are not offered by the same covenant.

  4. #204
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Funny thing is that it's precisely because I am already dealing with a lot of tough choices in the real world, both working and actually studying on an MSc course, that I don't want to deal with such shitty consequences in one of my favourite games.

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    The way you approach it is totally fair mate, and yeah, I can imagine it is difficult to judge without trying it much. Do you have access to beta? Just curious as I have had beta access since a week after it went into beta mode, and been extensively testing all 4 warlock abilities in m+ and raid testing in order to come to the conclusion I did.

    With that being said, the visuals carrying post expansion point you made is rather interesting, and I will defo consider it, and if I don't do it at launch, I will do it at the very least at the end of the expansion. Thank you for giving me this idea.

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    Old enough to bite back when someone decides to bring real life arguments into a game and try to say 'If it's okay to get fucked irl, you should bow down your head and let it happen in game too, and pretend you get stimulation out of it'. Because that's how it feels to be told (with a rather bad analogy imo), that just because something similar happens irl, so should it ingame.

    To me that sounds like someone who has never had to deal with actual consequences irl, if they are seeking that thrill in a game. And it's not about having stuff easily handed to me, I am an extremely competitive player and I am the most joyful at the hardest of challenges (yet I don't bring the min max argument in, as I don't think it's that big for me), I simply want to both have gameplay fun, and my character's identity to be properly represented in game, just like I've been trying to do the past... 8 years in WoW. And suddenly it's taken away from me, and then I get people in forums who tell me 'I want consequences in my video game'.

    Well why don't you (you in general, not you specifically), just stick to whatever covenant you like, even if there is free switching? You will then have your consequences that you love so much, and I will get to have a blast with both fun gameplay, and cool character identity, even if these are not offered by the same covenant.
    Sadly no... No beta for me. From what I gathered though, for monks:

    Venthyr: Pretty cool ability
    Night fae: Neon graffiti artist, seems cools but not that game changing
    Maldraxxus: A brew? A little lame, but people seem to somehow like it? Shame that the leather Tmog is just... Well, its perfect for rogues.
    Kyrian: Lame ability, cool transmog.

    But all abilities seems a little bit irrelevant to the rotation apparently, so right now I'm thinking either Venthyr or Night Fae. BUt I might be wrong since I have not tested it yet. I trying to keep updated but there are way too many changes every week. The best alternative will be simply to play it out and check the conduits later.

    That being said, I do feel slightly anxious, the good kind mind you, about choosing the covenant. Like it is a big deal. I feel like this is what they are aiming for, but apparently there are very clear winners and losers currently in the system. And somthing like abomination's limb should never be even close to the night fae death and decay. Even though one is clearly way more fun than the other.

    IMO the best way to fix it now is a llow you to have a secondary covenant, where you can experience a little of their campaign and get the freedom to swap between abilities.

    And no problem man, I might do that later if I get bored of one trasnmog anyway.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Your analogy is frankly garbage, because deciding whether to buy either of the two is like comparing two COVENANT ABILITIES. It does not make sense to buy both cars, just like it wouldn't make sense to get both abilities obviously. What I want is similar to ''I want to buy this new car because my old one is in a bad state, but I also want to re-innovate my kitchen because it is also in a bad state'. I have to make a choice because both require money, but I will still get both down the line by saving up money.

    WoW in shadowlands will ask me to EITHER buy a new car, OR to re-innovate my kitchen, no questions asked, and if you don't get that, it's not my problem. I still stand by my claim that you talk bullshit if you think that WoW needs more consequence. If you want decisions, then pick your class/race, pick if you will pursue gladiator, top 100 raider, or do +28 keys in time. If you want decisions, decide whether you want to spend your time farming a massive amount of gold for a brutosaur, or farm the crab mount in Naz'jatar.

    Also, you were the one who couldn't stand my opinion, I initially tried to explain to someone who seemed pretty adamant about blizz's decision being correct that I am in a troublesome situation for a damn game, and you are the one who decided to cherry pick my reply, and disagree with it, with pretty shitty examples.

    Finally, I think I get enough challenge in the game by aiming for top 100 every tier, I don't want anything the easy way, and I've been working towards gladiator steadily, which I hope to finally achieve in first season of SL. I am far from the person who wants things easily handed down to them.
    Now leave me be, as I was already informed by someone that you are one of the posters not to be messed with, as you are notorious for the way you speak in mmo champion. Have a good day, and let's agree to disagree.
    Since seems like you dont know real life then let me tell you. My analogy is absolutely perfect in every way.
    People buy both cars (have alts) if they are rich (time = money). And people absolutely do that in real life.

    WoW in shadowladns will exactly ask you to buy a car or 2, or 4 of them.

    Your analogy does not make any sense as covenants provides similar things. They do not renovate your kitchen vs having a car.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I'm tired of still playing beta when Blizzard releases their new expansions. Blizzard keeps launching systems in a horrible state and then end up having spend a lot of time in order to "fix" it.

    Please remember how bad these systems were when they launched and how wrong Blizzard were from the get go.

    - Garrisons
    - Legion Legendaries
    - Artifacts
    - Azerite gear
    - Essences
    - Corruption gear

    Please think about how awful these systems were when they were launched. And how much time Blizzard had to use during the expansions to fix them. It amaze me how people can still have this blind trust in Blizzard that they will get things right. How can you trust that Blizzard will be able to fix things with balancing after you have experienced the corruption gear.

    Blizzard have often been wrong. Blizzard don't deserve your blind trust.
    Out of curiosity, what was bad with above systems? I have had fun with all of them. Especially corruption, I hade so much fun with it, switching around pieces etc just to gain as many corruptions as I could (before the vendor was introduced).

    I can see one thing connection all gear system (don't know about Garrisons though) and that is aqusition (when they were introduced):
    - Legion Legendaries
    -- Completely random which legendary you got when you finally got one, easy to get a suboptimal one

    - Artifacts
    -- Grind AP to unlock perks could be time consuming when trying to stay ahead of the pack

    - Azerite gear
    -- Grind AP to unlock perks could... same as artifacts

    - Essences
    -- Timegated "challenges", behind daily quests, weekly resets etc also time consuming

    - Corruption gear
    -- Like with Legion legendaries, extreme RNG and RNG only

    Over time they fixed many issues though, some are still there but the major ones were fixed.

    Ofcourse Blizzard are often wrong, that's expected. Their customer base is broad and oppinions plenty. They usually come up with a decent enough middleground though. Together we improve the game, they listen to feedback we provide, they launch something half broken, we give feedback and they fix it and the circle repeat itself.

    If new systems does not completely depend on RNG, are time gated or very, very, grindy then I believe everything will be pretty OK.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  7. #207
    Just set your expectations low, like this low, and you'll be fine.
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    - ← lowest point ever!

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I'm tired of still playing beta when Blizzard releases their new expansions. Blizzard keeps launching systems in a horrible state and then end up having spend a lot of time in order to "fix" it.

    Please remember how bad these systems were when they launched and how wrong Blizzard were from the get go.

    - Garrisons
    - Legion Legendaries
    - Artifacts
    - Azerite gear
    - Essences
    - Corruption gear

    Please think about how awful these systems were when they were launched. And how much time Blizzard had to use during the expansions to fix them. It amaze me how people can still have this blind trust in Blizzard that they will get things right. How can you trust that Blizzard will be able to fix things with balancing after you have experienced the corruption gear.

    Blizzard have often been wrong. Blizzard don't deserve your blind trust.
    - Garrisons - have been fine. Not fleshed out enough with customizations and performance in the beginning was bad i give you that
    - Legion Legendaries - if oyu player normally you got at least one ok one quite fast. (unless you have been a fire mage)
    - Artifacts - what was the problem here?
    - Azerite gear - that really was not that big of a problem. You got so much azerite gear thrown at you you could deck out every spec 4 times over.
    - Essences - first one i give you. The fact, that you had to grind the living shit out of them with EVERY char was the worst thing they implemeted in BfA and that i had to do PvP to play PvE
    - Corruption gear - also was okish. The gamebreaker was when i was done farming and grinding and they introduced the f-ing vendor and it all started again. I quit 2 weeks after.

    In short: I don't think they system have been bad in by themselves. I sometimes get the feeling, that players wnat something out of the game that is not realistic. Perfect immersion, zero timegating (in an mmo? LMAO) , no grinding, every piece of loot is perfect for you, every button you press needs to be a explosion of feedback, no RNG EVER and more important: no alternatives. You need to get the most powerful thing immediatly and nothign else, otherwise there will be 1000 threads complaining about how you did not get XYZ in the second week of the expansion.
    Member when you had raid for weeks to get your full tier set? Nearly my whole raid had the last real tier set in week 2

  9. #209
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    the one thing i know. this game will be fun in first 3 months of expansion launch. even if its the last one or Old one.
    we r playing too have fun and see some new things. i think the big problem shadowlands have is Raiding.. there is 2 part of the game. Raiding and dungeon play..
    community's bring this game too a nice and lovely time killer game..

  10. #210

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    snip
    Yeah well azerite gear wasn't complete random as you had static drops from raid.
    Corruptions were raining down the sky plus also had static drops from raid so this is also not comparable to legion leggos.

    If you can't see difference then there is no helping. Everything has been legion legendaries going with that logic including broken trinkets from the past.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i have nothing against feedback, IF it actualy have a point, even if i disagree with it, but most of what people here call "feedback" is just whining that they did not get everything just handed to them for free...
    feedback is important and useful, whining is pointles and SHOULD be ignored
    What type of feedback are you referring to? Maybe if you'd give an example we could agree on something. Because, lets be real, the negative feedback has been nuanced. Pooling all of these various arguments together and calling them all "whining" isn't the mindset to have when you are as open minded as you paint yourself to be.

    On the "handed everything for free" front, i'd like to ask what you mean by that? What is everything?

    Surely, asking for power to be decoupled from covenant choice and in turn hardlocking your character to one covenant in terms of aesthetics, open-world gameplay, lore, etc. is understandably far from getting everything for free.


    Many players advocate for the decoupling of power and covenant choice for roleplaying and fantasy's sake, simply because the vast discrepancy in power and utility makes them not able to enjoy the decision they would have made for RP reasons. How does that fit into getting something for free? They still work to advance their covenant, they still do all the chores and grinds for their respective rewards. Now they just also get to feel good about it.


    Blizzard has done many players a disservice with their semantics surrounding this system. Words like "meaningful", "immersion", "roleplay", "identity", etc. were used to paint a picture that should appeal to the general playerbase of every mmorpg. However, what is implied by these buzzwords often isn't reflected in the actual gameplay. Heck, in some cases the system as is actually inhibits what is promised with that kind of rhetoric.

    I would love to see people oppose this system based on arguments that they deduced from actually having tested the game and/or by building their reasoning through thorough research of every piece of information at hand.
    What I see instead are people making arguments out of spite, using this critical phase of the game we all love and enjoy to vent anger at a certain part of the community they have declared their nemesis since WoW's inception.

    While maybe making yourself feel better temporarily, this attitude makes the game a little worse for a significant amount of time. Note how I didn't say indefinitely. Even you know, deep down, that at one point Blizzard will budge. Thad they haven't been on your side of this quarrel after all, but that they most likely just tried to get away with not having to fix a flawed system, effectively saving them money and effort at the time.

    I have played beta, I have tested 4 classes and all of their speccs. It doesn't feel good. It's an arbitrary hurdle thats not even supported on the grounds of lore and story. In fact, it actually works against that. Many of you that keep calling likeminded people "whiners" and "min-maxers" and "the 1%" will realize this soon enough, and I get the feeling you won't be able to help feeling a little disappointed in yourself when it happens.
    Last edited by LazuOG; 2020-09-15 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    What type of feedback are you referring to? Maybe if you'd give an example we could agree on something. Because, lets be real, the negative feedback has been nuanced. Pooling all of these various arguments together and calling them all "whining" isn't the mindset to have when you are as open minded as you paint yourself to be.

    On the "handed everything for free" front, i'd like to ask what you mean by that? What is everything?

    Surely, asking for power to be decoupled from covenant choice and in turn hardlocking your character to one covenant in terms of aesthetics, open-world gameplay, lore, etc. is understandably far from getting everything for free.


    Many players advocate for the decoupling of power and covenant choice for roleplaying and fantasy's sake, simply because the vast discrepancy in power and utility makes them not able to enjoy the decision they would have made for RP reasons. How does that fit into getting something for free? They still work to advance their covenant, they still do all the chores and grinds for their respective rewards. Now they just also get to feel good about it.


    Blizzard has done many players a disservice with their semantics surrounding this system. Words like "meaningful", "immersion", "roleplay", "identity", etc. were used to paint a picture that should appeal to the general playerbase of every mmorpg. However, what is implied by these buzzwords often isn't reflected in the actual gameplay. Heck, in some cases the system as is actually inhibits what is promised with that kind of rhetoric.

    I would love to see people oppose this system based on arguments that they deduced from actually having tested the game and/or by building their reasoning through thorough research of every piece of information at hand.
    What I see instead are people making arguments out of spite, using this critical phase of the game we all love and enjoy to vent anger at a certain part of the community they have declared their nemesis since WoW's inception.

    While maybe making yourself feel better temporarily, this attitude makes the game a little worse for a significant amount of time. Note how I didn't say indefinitely. Even you know, deep down, that at one point Blizzard will budge. Thad they haven't been on your side of this quarrel after all, but that they most likely just tried to get away with not having to fix a flawed system, effectively saving them money and effort at the time.

    I have played beta, I have tested 4 classes and all of their speccs. It doesn't feel good. It's an arbitrary hurdle thats not even supported on the grounds of lore and story. In fact, it actually works against that. Many of you that keep calling likeminded people "whiners" and "min-maxers" and "the 1%" will realize this soon enough, and I get the feeling you won't be able to help feeling a little disappointed in yourself when it happens.
    this, what you wrote (although unnecesary long ) is feedback
    saying "OMG they have to decouple it or the game is RUINED for EVERYONE" is whining

    sure they might budge, hopefuly they budge as much as with azerite armor (about 1/100 of the way) or way later
    and honestly, i would not be too dissapointed if they decoupled it, but id rather they do it bcs of actual reasons, not bcs some people think they will not be able to progres in their tryhard normal raid guild... i understand some people dont like the system, but most whining is actualy about how they will have to choose if they want to raid or do m+ or pvp with character like the system is somehow preventing them from entering raid if they choose covenant thats best for m+... i raid mythic with icecap frost DK which is rarely optimal, and i had no issue with any content, it will not be different with covenants...

    and sorry, but i do realise if it remains locked it will piss of more than 1% people, but thats the case for unlocking it too... i do ocasionaly say it will affect very few people but by that i dont mean people will magicaly start to like it, but that it will actualy stop people from achieving their goal, which will be case for VERY little people on the top, who actualy will figure way how to overcome it (as they always do)...

    you say it doesnt feel good, okay, but that is SUBJECTIVE... it doesnt feel good to you, somebody else might love it, how is your subjective feeling about system more important than that of someone else?
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-09-15 at 03:21 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Old enough to bite back when someone decides to bring real life arguments into a game and try to say 'If it's okay to get fucked irl, you should bow down your head and let it happen in game too, and pretend you get stimulation out of it'. Because that's how it feels to be told (with a rather bad analogy imo), that just because something similar happens irl, so should it ingame.

    To me that sounds like someone who has never had to deal with actual consequences irl, if they are seeking that thrill in a game. And it's not about having stuff easily handed to me, I am an extremely competitive player and I am the most joyful at the hardest of challenges (yet I don't bring the min max argument in, as I don't think it's that big for me), I simply want to both have gameplay fun, and my character's identity to be properly represented in game, just like I've been trying to do the past... 8 years in WoW. And suddenly it's taken away from me, and then I get people in forums who tell me 'I want consequences in my video game'.

    Well why don't you (you in general, not you specifically), just stick to whatever covenant you like, even if there is free switching? You will then have your consequences that you love so much, and I will get to have a blast with both fun gameplay, and cool character identity, even if these are not offered by the same covenant.
    Sounds like you have never actually entered the real world. That is reaqlly going to suck for you when you aren't handed everything and are forced to make a real choice while pople won't give into your temper tantrums. You are hte one who won't be able to handle actual consequences as you are already acting like a child becuse Blizzard won't hand you everything and are actually making you chose.

    Also, guess what? It's not your game. It's Blizzard's. You don't like what they put out? That is your problem, not theirs. Go play another game if it bothers you so much. You really need to grow up because right now you are acting like a 4 year old.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    Just set your expectations low, like this low, and you'll be fine.
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    - ← lowest point ever!
    its how i view most posts here, and even then sometimes it surprises me

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    you must really hate yourself. you obviously hated past systems, you are absolutely sure you will hate future systems.

    why spend any time on this at all?

  16. #216
    I do, and yet here we are. & Most likely, here we will be when 10.0 is a month plus change from launch.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    The thing I am pointing out is that Covenants are not perfect. It can be tweaked.
    The whole issue of Covenants is that they need to be perfect on launch, not months afterwards, they need to be in a good state on day one, when people make their choice.
    Once people are starting to swap around because of [Issues], then the whole system will give a pretty negative impression and first impressions do absolutely matter.

    Covenants cannot repeat the history of the systems you are referencing, because those system really tarnished the expansion for a lot of people.

    Let's not forget, we are talking about a system that hits live servers in about 6-7 weeks.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    this, what you wrote (although unnecesary long ) is feedback
    saying "OMG they have to decouple it or the game is RUINED for EVERYONE" is whining

    sure they might budge, hopefuly they budge as much as with azerite armor (about 1/100 of the way) or way later
    and honestly, i would not be too dissapointed if they decoupled it, but id rather they do it bcs of actual reasons, not bcs some people think they will not be able to progres in their tryhard normal raid guild... i understand some people dont like the system, but most whining is actualy about how they will have to choose if they want to raid or do m+ or pvp with character like the system is somehow preventing them from entering raid if they choose covenant thats best for m+... i raid mythic with icecap frost DK which is rarely optimal, and i had no issue with any content, it will not be different with covenants...

    and sorry, but i do realise if it remains locked it will piss of more than 1% people, but thats the case for unlocking it too... i do ocasionaly say it will affect very few people but by that i dont mean people will magicaly start to like it, but that it will actualy stop people from achieving their goal, which will be case for VERY little people on the top, who actualy will figure way how to overcome it (as they always do)...

    you say it doesnt feel good, okay, but that is SUBJECTIVE... it doesnt feel good to you, somebody else might love it, how is your subjective feeling about system more important than that of someone else?

    Most feedback is structured the way I just put it. Some people are mad and can't conduct themselves properly, yet they usually end up being the focus in arguments like yours. I can't be at fault for someone elses choice of examples. Neither does it invalidate similar, albeit more reasonable and eloquent concerns.

    Let me rephrase it then. As is, the system does not work the way it is being sold as, disregarding the stance anyone might have on the subject. This disconnect between what is advertised and what is delivered sparks negativity, since design philosophies, however your stance towards them might be, have been implemented in an arbitrary way, instead of properly rooting them in the story of the game. This cheap arbitration makes those concepts seem like they were implemented to stifle players for the sake of it, not because the story and fantasy support their existence.

    Thats what feels bad. Just because "feeling" is entirely subjective doesn't mean that it cant be used in context to make statements with a large degree of objectivity.
    Getting a colonoscopy feels bad to me. That is my subjective feeling. I can, however, assume that the vast majority of people would agree. Understandable?
    I don't just say "SL FEELS BAD PLS CHANGE", I try to root my subjective opinion in objectivity as much as possible.

    Do I have a bias? Yes, ofc! Do I try my best to correct for it when making statements! Definitely.
    Last edited by LazuOG; 2020-09-15 at 03:56 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Bliz has made it pretty obvious that they could care less about what players want lol.

    It's all about the holy MAU metric for the investors. So enjoy your endless grinds open ended grinds. Want fights that are correctly tuned and tested on release? omegalol.
    Streamers and min/max drones are not all the players - you realise this right

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    As is, the system does not work the way it is being sold as, disregarding the stance anyone might have on the subject. This disconnect between what is advertised and what is delivered sparks negativity, since design philosophies, however your stance towards them might be, have been implemented in an arbitrary way, instead of properly rooting them in the story of the game.
    and thats reason to work on it and if necesary change it to be more and better implemented, thats why feedback is important, however it doesnt mean the system should be abandoned... and decoupling it is just that...

    and sure you can assume vast majority would agree, HOWEVER, that assumption might be completely wrong... and i dont know about how much feedback on colonocscopy you have, but on covenants this forum alone have enouch to prove its in fact NOT a vast majority that agrees... i would say on mmo-c its roughly 50/50 (which is actualy incredible considering how doom and gloom this forum always is)

    as for feelings used objectively, that is possible, but then again, its important how you use and present them... saying "this feels bad bcs of this, this and that" is objective presentation of subjective feelings (also known as feedback ), saying "game is ruined bcs of this" is subjective presentation of persons stupidity...

    and i have absolutely no problem with people using subjective feelings as argument (reasonably), i have problem when someone uses their subjective feelings as argument and then waves someone else subjective feeling as "not true" bcs they disagree -which for example is terribly often case with meaningufl choice - its not meaningful to you, that doesnt mean someone else who cosiders it meaningful is wrong...

    btw i did not say YOU whine, your feedback is among most reasonable here, but be honest, if you read through threads like this how many of comments are actualy constructed reasonably and how many are just overreacting and whining without saying anything useful or original?
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-09-15 at 04:12 PM.

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