Is there really a Classic WoW period: Vanilla-WotLK?

[wiffl]

Even today i don't really believe that Mists of Pandaria was a real thing. It looks so stupid and so much away from what the playerbase liked about the game that i still can't believe they really released something like that.

I do understand that it's not easy to manage something like Blizzard and the Dev-Team for something like World of Warcraft. But don't you think it's a relastic idea and task to give Classic new content without releasing BC again?

[Askyl]

Well, yes of course. In many ways.

First, gameplay wise vanilla to WLK is very similar with talents, character development, questing etc. Additions have been made, some good and some bad but compared to Cataclysm and after. Vanilla, TBC and WLK are a trilogy, whereas Cataclysm and forward greatly changed the game.

Second, Classic to WLK has the same narrative and lore established in Wc3 and onwards, following a plotline that actually (even if it could be better) made sense for WoW. With Cataclysm, even if it introduced and old enemy of the world being Onyxia and Neffys father. Deathwing started a new weird ass path for WoW lore.

Third, the world in vanilla, TBC and WLK wasn't the same after Cataclysm since it changed Azeroth..... Forever (deep voice). Cataclysm was an obvious expansion to make the game "new", as if it was WoW 2 launching.

Vanilla, TBC and WLK feels like Warcraft. Cataclysm and after feels like the raiding and pet/mount gather simulator we got today. I hope for everyones sake that each expanion actually get their own servers since a lot of people love different expanions for various reasons. But if you're talking Classic, that's Vanilla -> WLK.

But don't you think it's a relastic idea and task to give Classic new content without releasing BC again?

That would be amazing. So many things were planned for vanilla that never saw the light of day, and I think with some "Vanilla-core-thinking" balancing in classes and new content added like Mount Hyijal, Caverns of Time, Grim Batol and all locked zones etc. We'd have a great time in Classic+.

It won't happen, but it's a very realistic and possible idea. But I think it'll stay as an idea.

[xenogear3]

Even today i don't really believe that Mists of Pandaria was a real thing. It looks so stupid and so much away from what the playerbase liked about the game that i still can't believe they really released something like that.

This is because 8 million subs are Chinese, and China has 1.3 billion people.

Blizzard mistakenly thought that Panda can attract more Chinese players.
It doesn't know that only the Chinese government is crazy about Panda bear.

[Solamon]

TBC was the beginning of the decline. It introduced "welfare epics" through arenas and badge grinds as well as daily quests to keep people chasing carrots.

If I recall correctly, the reason why daily quests were put into the game was because of the stupidly large number of people who complained that 5000g was too expensive for epic flight and that no one could possibly make that much money out in the world, forcing people into farming and AH playing to get the money, which "wasn't fair".

I had my epic flight before dailies were ever put in, but I also did farm leather like it was my second job

[Vilendor]

Up until WotlK it was the same old WoW but more and better. More talents, more open world, more instances, more raids, more story, more levels etc, but at the core it was literally an expansion of the vanilla game. Yes, they added flying and LFG... 2 changes in 6 years. It was cataclysm when they started rewriting/redesigning/remaking the whole game, the classes, the talents, the open world, the raid system and implementing the systems built on systems to play systems.

So yeah, the statement is correct. There is a reason majority want vanilla/bc/wotlk servers. I never seen anyone asking for cataclysm servers...

[Kralljin]

Raids were only "not casual" because of player knowledge and it was not casual at the begining of TBC with the massive over the top entry requirements for raids which got reverted with 2.2.3 I believe.

And?
Those raids weren't designed with the spread of information in mind.

Raids were supposed to develop their own strategies to kill a boss, which actually happened back in Vanilla because a lot of guilds kept their strats a secret so other guilds won't progress as fast as them.

Nowadays you can just look up the perfect position to tank bosses such as Firemaw or Chromaggus, so every healer can LoS the Breath / Flame buffet while still healing people.
It's pretty reductionist to look at bosses that were designed as a puzzle, give people the solution and then go "wow, that's super easy" - Yeah, it's super easy because you were given the solution.

[Dhrizzle]

This is because 8 million subs are Chinese, and China has 1.3 billion people.

Blizzard mistakenly thought that Panda can attract more Chinese players.
It doesn't know that only the Chinese government is crazy about Panda bear.

This seems like nonsense, most people who were familiar with the lore expected us to go to Pandaria sooner or later.

[xenogear3]

This seems like nonsense, most people who were familiar with the lore expected us to go to Pandaria sooner or later.

What lore?
The only thing is Brewmaster in Warcraft 3.

[Clermont]

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

you absolute tree stump. you are a fucking
donkey.

LFG would have been a great tool if they had designed it differently; keep it server only, and still require you to get to the dungeon on your own.

that's exactly how it worked in Wrath and it was beautiful. people never remember that. it wasn't until Cata that they connected the servers for LFG because surprise, surprise, people on the forums complained that queues took too long.

[Dhrizzle]

What lore?
The only thing is Brewmaster in Warcraft 3.

Before there was WoW Blizzard worked on a pen-and-paper RPG with White Wolf. While it isn't 100% canon there was a lot of ideas Blizz put into those books which were drawn on for making WoW and one of those was Pandaria, the land of the mysterious Pandaren who had been allies with the Night Elves when the world was whole and withdrew to be almost forgotten before the Sundering.

[erifwodahs]

And?
Those raids weren't designed with the spread of information in mind.

Raids were supposed to develop their own strategies to kill a boss, which actually happened back in Vanilla because a lot of guilds kept their strats a secret so other guilds won't progress as fast as them.

Nowadays you can just look up the perfect position to tank bosses such as Firemaw or Chromaggus, so every healer can LoS the Breath / Flame buffet while still healing people.
It's pretty reductionist to look at bosses that were designed as a puzzle, give people the solution and then go "wow, that's super easy" - Yeah, it's super easy because you were given the solution.

While I would partially agree with that and it was very likely true at that time you could try to apply same logic to WotLK raids, which were still harder and less casual if you value it in the same "no guides" light.
And it's not like there were no guides. They were in text mostly, on forums. (I used to use detailed text quest guides rather than walkthrough) but using "addons or guides is a noob thing" I have been called out for using addons as recent as ZA release in TBC.
The game was new and big, most people had their hands full with everything else and raiding was not the only thing at that time while in in wotlk it was made like a more obvious end-game thing.
What I mean is that raids were simple - you went in, you got some bosses down, pretty much the same case as normal raiding since N/H/M was introduced. It was not casual to kill bosses in 30sec ofc but saying that WotLK "made raiding casual with a multi-difficulty raiding" is false imo. Killing LK in 10man normal mode was as casual as killing Nefarion and that multi-difficulty raiding actually allowed some real non-casual raiding to be developed rather than "casualised" it. How would you challenge top 15 or 10% players if the same boss has to be killable by someone who clicks/has downtime/doesn't use the right set up/rotation?
That's why we have those modes - so people who want "classic" experience and pretty much kill bosses just by entering raid and using strats from info on the dungeon journal and we have something, which actaully requires some better understanding of the raid/class and then we have something which required skill, communication, gear and hundreds of iterations to able to kill the boss?
I did not mean to reduce the feat of the world top guilds in Vanilla, I just mean that a casual Joe with his intellect plate legs (because it has more armor stat) on a warrior could come in and kill quite a few bosses as long as the raid was somewhat aware of positioning.

- - - Updated - - -

This seems like nonsense, most people who were familiar with the lore expected us to go to Pandaria sooner or later.

I was a lore junk and I never saw that coming as an EXPANSION with a massive landmass. Not at that time for sure.. I mean if they have teased it through WotLK+Cata as some ship wrecks/pandaren quest zone in uldum/tanaris - sure, would have helped.

[FelPlague]

Vanilla to WotLK had the old world to explore and free-form talent trees. Obviously there's a large gradient of changes and everyone is free to draw the line at the point they consider the "golden age" but I'd say the removal of the old world and disallowing hybrid-specs is a pretty good place to draw a definitive line.

1. Yeah cata for sure, the first expansion to massively change most of the game. Talent trees rework, world rework, gear rework, tmog, lfr, teir sets, archeology, glyph rework, etc etc there is tons I could list.

2. I think it's the first time I've ever actually read your signature... It's pretty good.

[Kralljin]

While I would partially agree with that and it was very likely true at that time you could try to apply same logic to WotLK raids, which were still harder and less casual if you value it in the same "no guides" light.

Considering that a lot of fansites for WoW and theorycrafting websites have established itself at this point, that fails the comparison.

And it's not like there were no guides. They were in text mostly, on forums. (I used to use detailed text quest guides rather than walkthrough) but using "addons or guides is a noob thing" I have been called out for using addons as recent as ZA release in TBC.

Difference is that those guides did not necessarily contain "correct" information.

Ever wondered how guilds used to struggle on Vael?
Old guides used to recommend for tanks to wear 315 Fire Resistance.
On top of that, what did most tanks play? Deep Prot.

In other words, those tanks won't generate a lick of threat.
Now, your dps will keep dying to threat or be extremely throttled by your tanks.

So what was the solution?
Tanks go full TPS gear to generate more threat?
No, tell your dps to watch threat and wear more Resistance. (=> less dps)

Boom, that's how people used to struggle on Vael.

Simply because a guide exists, doesn't mean the information is accurate, nobody fact checked those things, it's just "Yeah, that's how we killed it".

People used to believe that one should play "healer friendly" to kill a boss, however people over the years realized that killing the boss faster is usually the best approach.

What I mean is that raids were simple - you went in, you got some bosses down, pretty much the same case as normal raiding since N/H/M was introduced.

The fact that it went from 40 to 10 man heavily lowered the barrier for people to enter raiding, not to mention that the amount of preperation needed also dropped quite heavily.

Remember Attunements, remember Resistance gear?
Yeah, used to be a thing in TBC.

It was not casual to kill bosses in 30sec ofc but saying that WotLK "made raiding casual with a multi-difficulty raiding" is false imo. Killing LK in 10man normal mode was as casual as killing Nefarion and that multi-difficulty raiding actually allowed some real non-casual raiding to be developed rather than "casualised" it.

It's not, that's when pugs for raids really started to kick off, because the difficulty of Normal wasn't as high (compared to the 25man raids of TBC), not to mention that 10man was notoriously undertuned.

After all, organization is also a factor to consider.

How would you challenge top 15 or 10% players if the same boss has to be killable by someone who clicks/has downtime/doesn't use the right set up/rotation?

In the days of linear progression, the difficulty simply ramped up as tiers went on.

It's not like SWP was just a walk in the park back in 2008.
Those encounters were designed what was perceived as the high end audience at the time, not around what was actually possible.

That's why we have those modes - so people who want "classic" experience and pretty much kill bosses just by entering raid and using strats from info on the dungeon journal and we have something, which actaully requires some better understanding of the raid/class and then we have something which required skill, communication, gear and hundreds of iterations to able to kill the boss?

Because anybody does this?

Like mate, that train left town because information is readily available, the "Classic" approach of "puzzle bosses" no longer works because of how quickly information spreads nowadays (Ra-den says hi).
Previously, you essentially had to get the information out of somebody who has killed this boss (who would most likely get somehow punished by his guild if he does), now guilds stream the world first kill.

I just mean that a casual Joe with his intellect plate legs (because it has more armor stat) on a warrior could come in and kill quite a few bosses as long as the raid was somewhat aware of positioning.

You can carry people, that is nothing new and hasn't changed.

[Loveliest]

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool.

This post could've lived without very subjective statements. We don't know and we can't know how the game would have evolved without those. The one thing I can say is no one complained about flying existing in MoP, but a lot of players complained when the flying was gone.

On topic, I don't clump expansions together as anything. Every expansion brought changes. I recall at the time people were making fun of people that started playing in Wrath, as being "Wrath babies". Whether one expansion was good or not is, again, subjective. We all know Wrath had the highest population and I bet a lot of new players, attracted by seeing the Lich King end (myself included). Speculating why there's a decline isn't very relevant, the game gets old, things change, people get old and get jobs and start families, new players have more options and aren't familiar with Warcraft 3 etc, old players get bored / tired with the changes, it doesn't really matter. There's not one feature anyone can prove it started "the decline". I'm not really sure why people do this, how long would one thing live, how long would anyone expect one game to increase in players? Eventually, all things die.

[ek0zu]

Vanilla is something unique, personally, it is my all time favorite game, i really did not want to ruin that experience that is why i did not play classic at all.

However, after Vanilla, many things have deteriorated the game (for me). The list is well known and has been written countless times by many, here in MMO-c and elsewhere.

Wotlk was WoW's peak not because it was the better game, but because everyone that has played was bringing in friends through the world of mount (the best by far marketing tool if you ask me). WoW's universe is exceptional. The way the game plays, even today, is exceptional but slowly it has completely changed for the better and for the worse.

Concluding my mumbling, Storywise Classic WoW period is Vanilla-Wotlk, as OP says, with the fall of Prince Arthas. But Gameplaywise Vanilla WoW was its inception only.

[voidillusion]

I have some issues with including LK in this definition but loosely yes, Vanilla to LK might be considered the classic period due to several similitudes.

[MoFalcon]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

So, you dont like these two things?
Funny how people complain for months about no being able to fly... complained so much the first time an expansion was release without flying available right away. yeah, its terrible.

And the LFG tools is probably the MOST used system on wow. LFR, Mythic, Dungeons. I would bet that everyone has used this HATED LFG tool in some way while playing. yep, horrible tool.

And yes, Thats the classic era in Wow....for all the reasons stated in this thread.

[Monster Hunter]

Mhm for me the game changed when the talent trees were removed.

I know blah blah cookie cutter but pre the change i used to find alot if enjoyment being just my class and building weird unique builds during my off time between raids, DK was a very good class for messing about with builds.

After that, class fantasy started to vanish for spec fantasy and I just felt more and more restricted, now I don't play wow like an rpg or for its rpg elements as I don't feel any connection to my chars, don't 100% know if its related but now I just use them as tools to get account raid achievements, more like a moba to me than anything else really.

I know SL wants to make some move back to class over spec, but its stupid to even try that whilst they have the current talent/spec system.

I said it years and years a go, cookie cutter wasn't a problem with the talent trees it was a problem of simplistic encounter design. But hay ho w/e

[LilSaihah]

I do somewhat wonder if the reason vanilla through wotlk is considered 'classic' is because those are the 'not shit' expansions.

That said, I'd say that they are the 'classic' era because they don't rework or retool much of anything in the game to that point. You have the talent system, which gets expanded. Your spell list gets expanded. You get new professions, and professions don't really get major reimaginings. If you go into TBC or WotLK without keeping up with the news, there really aren't any systems that you're going to need to get up to speed with.

[Dastreus]

The world was legit remade, and later in cata the talent tree system was changed completely. I'd say that classic period is launch and into wrath. I mean, cata also saw more breaking down of things. Dwarf shaman. Tauren paladin. Definitely falls outside classic. Anyone who argues cata and mop are also classic are just deranged. And this is coming from someone who actually kind of liked Cata and feels 4.3 was one of the game's better patches.