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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    People like you are minority. Despite people like doing mythic raid if you remove gear desire to that content would drop dramaticaly. Its whole packcage what makes people do mythic raiding and more you take away from that packcage more people will quit.
    Yeah, I figured as much :/ Maybe m+ rewards could scale with how far in mythic raid you've managed? Would increase boosting potential but would be like a soft attunement for good loot in m+, and I mean that you'd get that loot from pretty high m+ level. Then people would have to raid to get loot from m+. And they would complain.... There just isn't a good middleway I guess.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    If you're only doing a single +15 because it's the start of the season, then your single Cache item is almost guaranteed to be an upgrade along with the end of Dungeon loot... however, while a "M+ only" player might only clear a single +15, they will no doubt be running enough dungeons for more Vault options, just not at a +15 level.
    Right, but that in itself is actually a problem - no-one is going to take the lower ilvl option, because that's just dumb. So, unless you're running at least 15 or so M+ each reset, then there's no added value to running more than 1 per week, given the vastly reduced drop rates.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Right, but that in itself is actually a problem - no-one is going to take the lower ilvl option, because that's just dumb. So, unless you're running at least 15 or so M+ each reset, then there's no added value to running more than 1 per week, given the vastly reduced drop rates.
    a lower ilvl option that is an upgrade is better then a higher ilvl that you already have.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    With that alone, you will be full ilvl 226 in the first 90 days. So tell me again how that is TOO SLOW.

    Even if all you are doing are Mythics, no PvP and no raiding you will still have 3 items to choose from each week. I think adding 3 more possible loot chances in the weekly chest will make a lot of folks who may not be raiders, into raiders.

    We shall see.
    Please explain your maths, because the last time I checked, most classes have 16 slots to fill. 16 weeks = 4 months = 120 days, not 90. And that is only once you're in a position to actually clear +15 keys, so you need to add, conservatively, another 4-8 weeks to that, for a total of ~6 months. Given that most patches don't last that long, a player who cannot raid can never realistically be 'done' with the game, whereas raiders can be. That feels very, very punishing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    a lower ilvl option that is an upgrade is better then a higher ilvl that you already have.
    Well, hold on a second here. I was told repeatedly in another thread that duplicates won't happen, and that Blizzard said that themselves. So your highest option should always be for an 'unfinished' slot. Someone, somewhere, is lying.

    Even if you take the lower ilvl, that slot is not 'completed'.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.
    I am not sure what you mean exactly. I guess that 6-12hrs are the "usual" amount of raiding hours per week for mythic raiding. If you have to do 2-3 hrs of open world grinds (torghast + renown + daily emisarries) and 3-4 hrs to achieve the maximum m+ reward you are already playing up to almost 20hrs, just for power progression. Is it that bad that there are things besides power progression on your main character to do? Additionally +15s wont be on farm that easily even for mythic raiders.

  6. #406
    Suck it up. BFA was M+ or die. For the entire expansion, BIS for just about every class and spec was the same old trash from M+.

    I don't understand the fun in running the same dungeons over the length of en entire expansion for the same old gear that does all the same old shit. I can't even be bothered to farm M+ beyond doing a +15 once a week. I just don't get it.

    The community following Mythic dungeons is just abysmal. Some of the worst players I've ever seen. I guess that's the only plus side to M+. Keeps the bads away from everything else, as they're too busy farming Mythic dungeons for free easy loot from LFR difficulty dungeons.

    It's about time you guys get the appropriate item level for your skill level.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Please explain your maths, because the last time I checked, most classes have 16 slots to fill. 16 weeks = 4 months = 120 days, not 90. And that is only once you're in a position to actually clear +15 keys, so you need to add, conservatively, another 4-8 weeks to that, for a total of ~6 months. Given that most patches don't last that long, a player who cannot raid can never realistically be 'done' with the game, whereas raiders can be. That feels very, very punishing.

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    Well, hold on a second here. I was told repeatedly in another thread that duplicates won't happen, and that Blizzard said that themselves. So your highest option should always be for an 'unfinished' slot. Someone, somewhere, is lying.

    Even if you take the lower ilvl, that slot is not 'completed'.
    what?
    You don't get 2x the same item as a choice in the same weekly chest but I don't think anyone has ever said that if you have 226 ilvl boots from dungon boss X you can never see boots from boss Y.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Yeah, I figured as much :/ Maybe m+ rewards could scale with how far in mythic raid you've managed? Would increase boosting potential but would be like a soft attunement for good loot in m+, and I mean that you'd get that loot from pretty high m+ level. Then people would have to raid to get loot from m+. And they would complain.... There just isn't a good middleway I guess.
    You do understand that m+ gearing is better in SL than it was in BFA? Having higher ilvl from a spamable source than hc raid loot is stupid, because it invalidates the hc ra id. And afaik the vault still offers mythic ivl quality loot only that you get 3 options now instead of 1. The only issue here is, that you cannot any longer farm hc equivalent ilvl for each slot so that you can trade all hc loot that drops.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by LDancer View Post
    Why does this thread sound like another entitled M+ runner trying to reignite the debate?

    I raid and clear in a week, and if the RNG gods like me I might see 1 or 2 drops based on my history of shitty luck. But they expect to be able to run continuously and get to mythic level in gear in a night?

    I welcome this change as it’s gonna free up a lot of my time outside of raid nights.

    I hope blizz put in some scaling on M+ gear that it scales up based on the M+ level the item was gained at, when doing M+ content, but when in other content, like world or raid, it all normalises out to be the same as everyone else. They get their perk in their chosen content, but don’t end up with stupid levels of power
    It's good for you if you only want to raid but it's bad for litteraly everyone else.
    M+ was a popular part of WoW, much more so than any raid outside of LFR. It's rather stupid to kill off that part of the game for no real reason.

    It's pretty clear at this point that all competent devs have left Blizzard and the ones that are left do not even play their own games.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    what?
    You don't get 2x the same item as a choice in the same weekly chest but I don't think anyone has ever said that if you have 226 ilvl boots from dungon boss X you can never see boots from boss Y.
    There was a tweet that was put out only a few days ago which showed a beta tester opening their weekly chest after doing 15 M+ runs and getting 3 necks as their choices. So, at least as recently as then, you can still absolutely get duplicate choices in the chest. So it seems that it is Blizzard who are lying.

    If you can still get a choice of a slot which is 'filled', then that means that even a 5-6 month estimate may be off, as it would only take a couple of dupes to throw that completely out of whack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    You do understand that m+ gearing is better in SL than it was in BFA? Having higher ilvl from a spamable source than hc raid loot is stupid, because it invalidates the hc ra id. And afaik the vault still offers mythic ivl quality loot only that you get 3 options now instead of 1. The only issue here is, that you cannot any longer farm hc equivalent ilvl for each slot so that you can trade all hc loot that drops.
    You only get those 3 choices if you clear 10 +15s per week. You must also factor in the necessary clears to upgrade your key to that level. That is a lot of time spent doing nothing but M+.
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2020-09-25 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Spelling

  11. #411
    I think Mythic + is to easy for the gear it gives. I'm a casual heroic raider at most and I can get full mythic gear items from running mythic +?

    I agree with the changes. But I wouldn't mind if you could get mythic gear for doing mythic difficulty mythic+.

    You should be rewarded for the difficulty your doing.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    There was a tweet that was put out only a few days ago which showed a beta tester opening their weekly chest after doing 15 M+ runs and getting 3 necks as their choices. So, at least as recently as then, you can still absolutely get duplicate choices in the chest. So it seems that it is Blizzard who are lying.

    If you can still get a choice of a slot which is 'filled', then that means that even a 5-6 month estimate may be off, as it would only take a couple of dupes to throw that completely out of whack.
    were they 3x the same neck or just 3 different necks?
    Kind of a big difference.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.


    I agree the hardest content in the game should give the best gear. Thats how it is supposed to work, thats how it should always work, thats why Classic worked.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    were they 3x the same neck or just 3 different necks?
    Kind of a big difference.
    I can't recall without looking at tweet again - I will have to try and find it, as I didn't save the link. All I can remember is that it was on the US forums somewhere.

    If it's the latter, then that just makes M+ only even more punishing - because dungeons generally all have the same loot tables but with different stats, you're far more likely to have this occur then for raiding. Raiding, as I'm sure you're aware, distributes the slots more 'evenly' over all the bosses. 6 months to gear through M+ is starting to look more and more generous an estimate, rather than realistic.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I can't recall without looking at tweet again - I will have to try and find it, as I didn't save the link. All I can remember is that it was on the US forums somewhere.

    If it's the latter, then that just makes M+ only even more punishing - because dungeons generally all have the same loot tables but with different stats, you're far more likely to have this occur then for raiding. Raiding, as I'm sure you're aware, distributes the slots more 'evenly' over all the bosses. 6 months to gear through M+ is starting to look more and more generous an estimate, rather than realistic.
    and?
    no seriously, and?
    Why does someone gearing purely off of running dungeons need to gear up to full Mythic gear in under 6 months?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.
    I dare say the title of this thread is going to invoke a lot of replies that the content of your OP probably didn’t intend.

    To be honest if you are raiding mythic then you’re at the cutting edge of progression and so other progression paths are always going to be limited because the gear rewards don’t compare with mythic raid gear.
    But surely to get to a point where you are gear capped on every slot will take quite some time?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    It seems so, yes. Back to raid or die.
    Hardly. Mythic raiders having a few extra ilevels of gear does not mean everything else is suddenly worthless.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    I dare say the title of this thread is going to invoke a lot of replies that the content of your OP probably didn’t intend.

    To be honest if you are raiding mythic then you’re at the cutting edge of progression and so other progression paths are always going to be limited because the gear rewards don’t compare with mythic raid gear.
    But surely to get to a point where you are gear capped on every slot will take quite some time?

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    Hardly. Mythic raiders having a few extra ilevels of gear does not mean everything else is suddenly worthless.
    People are just blowing the M+ situation out of proportion for 3 ilvls. A lot of people have forgotten what raid or die was like, however the only thing they have in common is i am pretty sure the open world and Torghast will be practically useless a few weeks in which kind of sucks ass.

  18. #418
    they clearly stated that rival or challenger tier pvp, +10 mythic dungeons and heroic raiding will be on par.

    my wild guess is gladiator tier pvp, +15 mythic dungeons and mythic raiding will be on par as well. i am not sure on the pvp part though, may be lower.
    war does not determine who is right, only who is left.

  19. #419
    Once, long ago, raid or die meant there was literally nothing else to do in the game but raid. Not that the best gear came from raids.
    The game has a lot more content for people who are not raiding these days.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogarth View Post
    Also, lets ignore every other expansion before WoD where it was also "raid or die". Though it should properly be made into "raid, pvp (though mainly raid) or die"
    I just wanna point out, most expansions prior to WoD had multiple feasible gearing paths. In Vanilla, you had crafting, dungeons, and raids as gearing paths; PvP was only a gearing path if you reliably ranked among your server's best players and sank a frankly unhealthy amount of time into the game to keep up with GM/HW competition. In TBC, you had a gearing path from dungeons, raiding, and arena sets in PvP--even players sticking to BGs could amass the previous season's set as a catchup set, which provided casual players and PvPers who didn't like Arenas a gear path throughout the expansion. In WotLK, the game had one of the strongest dungeon gearing progression paths prior to the introduction of Mythic+ with progression from the launch dungeons, to ToC5/HToC5, to the ICC 5-mans, with ToC5 and ICC5 dropping tokens to build an initial tier set (much like how Vanilla allowed players to amass t0 and t0.5 from dungeons as a starter set). Cataclysm continued this with a dungeon progression path and the introduction of LFR.

    MoP was the first expansion where things really started shifting into 'raid or die.' However, the plethora of reputations and new reputations brought in with each patch, as well as Battlefield: Barrens, provided a non-raid progression path, albeit a much shakier one than WotLK and Cataclysm. WoD was the first expansion where there was no reasonable gearing path or other progression curve for players who didn't like raiding or rated PvP. LFR gear was driven into the ground, world content had been boiled down to treasure hunts and mob-grind reputations that offered little of value unless you found a wolf that was a slightly different shade of brown enticing enough to engage in a second mob grind, and most of the non-raid endgame was boiled down to clicking menus at two mission tables until the introduction of Mythic dungeons.

    One of the (very few) things BFA did right was provide multiple avenues of progression. One of the (many) things it did wrong was design the game so that those avenues of progression weren't target gearing paths for different demographics, but designed around 'forcing' players to spend as much time ingame as possible, which looked good for Blizzard's MAU metrics. Shadowlands seems to be returning to the notion of targeted gearing paths for different demographics, which is a good thing. Speaking as someone who only sets foot in a raid to finish up storylines and maybe get nice transmogs, or to run old raids for mounts and whatnot, I don't feel particularly oppressed if my item level is a little bit lower than someone who's getting this season's Gladiator title. The trick is to keep the rewards feeling nice for their target demographic without, for example, hiring Fischer-Price concept artists to design your LFR gear models, looking at you, WoD.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



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