Preferred by who? I know most guilds always aimed to do 25s back in the day and that is coming from someone in a world top ten 10 man for siege... Now more ten mans were ran then 25 but a lot of them where simply guilds splitting their teams for extra loot.
I am actually in favor of ten man raiding but I believe it needs raids designed around 10 people rather then trying to make a one size fits all boss battle.
6-9 ilvls, equivalent of current 10 ilvs. Or 15 ilvls compared to 2 last heroic bosses. It's not our problem you cant see that this is massive nerf.
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By vast majority of players.
https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html
Agreed. The fact that you can essentially get infinite loot chances from M+ is a problem. And this is amplified when combined with systems like WF/TF (a system I still believe was excellent and remains very unjustly maligned) or Corruptions.
I like the solution they came up with for Horrific Visions and I think they should apply it to M+ as well. Basically you should only be able to get the loot for each M+ level once per week. If you've already received the loot for that level, then it should award you loot for the next unlooted level down. So if you've already completed a M+15 and got a reward from it, then the reward from a subsequent M+15 should only give M+14 loot, then M+13 etc.
It doesn't exactly place a hard cap on how many M+ you must do, but the diminishing returns ensure that no player will keep doing it ad infinitum - at least not for the gear. This would even work well with WF/TF.
Honestly I found it to be fine in Legion. M+ let you grind out slots you wanted, but tier sets and trinkets came from raids and were pretty powerful. Gave each path their own reason for being important to power up your toon.
Granted I no longer raid organised from time constraints, but I still wouldn't mind tier sets returning. Finishing a 4p set was always a nice feeling.
Everyone understands that it's a nerf in terms of farming for raid progression skipping. But if it isn't a nerf in terms of completing m+ achievements (which it probably won't be), then it fundamentally doesn't change anything about your m+ experience. You'll still need to do high level raids to be in contention for m+ world ranks (which you need to do now) and you still won't get the best gear available from anything but high lvl raiding (which is currently the case).
The actual effect of this change is to make it LESS POSSIBLE TO GRIND which virtually everyone outside the cutting edge of world progression has been asking for for 2 full expansions. It also lets them calibrate heroic+ raiding to be slightly easier, because people won't be able to enter heroic+ progression with gear better than they'd get from the raid. IMO this has little to no impact on the average player, actually no impact on the world's best players, and allows people who are progressing to stress less about grinding tons of m+ to be acceptably geared.
By that logic, it's really only the Raid Leaders that deserve the best gear, since they're the ones doing the logistical leg work to make a Raid happen. The thing is, you are mistaking complexity for difficulty here.
Things can be difficult, but in different ways. Rewards can be equivalent, but handed out for different reasons.
And if Raiding would simply die out because it wasn't the one and only path to the best gear in the game, then how fan an activity can it be? If it can't stand on its own without that shiny bauble holding it up, is it actually a solid part of the game?
Social bonds through guilds are a major reason this game has seen success for 14 years. The main reason people quit *for good* is when their guild/friends quit.
That doesn't mean it has to be structured 100% like it is now or anything, but the organized progression raiding is incredibly important to the brand and business model.
It is actually even more as everything was downscaled so individual item level differences are bigger in terms of percentage differences. Try again this time using math.
By the way you didn't use any math since you don't know stat weights yet. It is equivalent to current 10 or 15 ilvls (so ~0.7-1.5% difference per slot).
Because one is much harder than the rest.
Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.
That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.
this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.
Considering no one was doing 30s, your point is irrelevant.
Don't be mad because you aren't going to be handed gear for doing nothing anymore.
But to play along, I agree that if folks WERE capable of doing 30-39 level keys, 1 item should drop at the end, and it should be 100% random and Mythic raid quality.
But I still think mythic raiding is harder. Find 5 good players to push high keys, is MUCH easier than finding 20 folks to clear Mythic before ilvl takes over. IE after 3-4 months on a current tier.
You can still get gear via M+
3 item levels isn't a lot with mythic+15 and heroic raiding
You still get mythic raid ilvl pieces in your chest from mythic+
You can still get pvp gear by doing pvp.
Why have a difference at all? Time investment. Four to six M+ dungeons with a guaranteed weekly piece (now of your choice!) seems like a pretty great trade-off in terms of time versus 4-6 hours of raiding for often times zero loot and no mythic ilvl pieces. (Remember too Shadowlands dungeons are shorter than BfA.)
Raiding isn't better at all, mythic raiding is hard af to do, heroic is usually clearable in two weeks. There's very little guarantee you'll get the pieces you need from it. Gearing still will be a struggle but one that still favors M+ over time and maybe doing a few early tier mythic bosses.
Last edited by Elestia; 2020-09-18 at 03:29 PM.
Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.
The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.
Raiding would thrive and change with other gearing methods being available just as it has with M+ or how it did in BC/WotLK with PvP gear.
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It already does and if anything isn't nearly as difficult as mythic raiding. People would shit the bed if it were.
The fact that M+ and Mythic raiding doesn't have exact parity in both difficulty and reward is actually good. Just as the majority can't handle mythic raids, the majority would fail mythic plus. The fact that M+ allows you a mythic raid level piece per week is the only thing that actually makes up ground in terms of gearing for mythic raid mechanics to a level playable for most people. It's literally a catch up system.
Last edited by Elestia; 2020-09-18 at 03:38 PM.