If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

[Mrbleedinggums]

"Mak'gora" literally means "duel of honor". If two spellcasters want to have a magic mak'gora, so be it. If two orc warriors want to have a fight to the death with only their weapon then so be it. If I come up to you and say that I demand a duel, we can decide if it's a duel with guns or a fisticuffs duel.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora

Mak'gora used to be traditionally a combat to the death, but under Warchief Thrall's rule it became a non-lethal combat, though participants can choose to forgo this change.[1]

Refusing a Mak'gora can mean dishonor.[7] When used as a fight to the death, being spared can be perceived as a grave insult for orcs, at least for Thunderlords.[7] In one unnamed orcish clan, the participants were expelled from their clan and left for dead when they refused to kill each other during their Mak'gora.[9]

In ogre clans, only an ogre may challenge another ogre to a mak'gora, but the challenger may then choose a champion to fight on his/her behalf.[8]

The rules of a Mak'gora seem to be different between each Mak'gora since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves. Generally, there are thus no specific rules. There are only two consistent themes in all Mak'gora: once dropped, a weapon cannot be retrieved by either opponent and that the pair must fight to the death or until submission. Magic, for example, has never been stated to be forbidden, and has, in fact, been used in multiple Mak'gora duels and thus seems to be permitted. Similarly, many Mak'gora duels have involved both fighters wearing body armor as well, but it can also be forbidden when explicitly required.

For example, the rules chosen for the Mak'gora between Garrosh and Cairne were:

One weapon was allowed.
A blessing of this weapon by a shaman of their choosing was permitted.
Both body armor and clothing were forbidden, only a loincloth was allowed.
Each participant had to have at least one witness.
The combat was to the death.[10]

The rules chosen for the Mak'gora between Shagara and Ashra were:

One weapon was allowed.
Body armor was forbidden, but not clothing.
The combat was to the death.[6]

In many instances of Mak'gora, no rules whatsoever are defined beforehand. For instance in both the first and the second Mak'gora between Thrall and Garrosh, the Mak'gora between Saurfang and Malfurion, or the Mak'gora between Saurfang and Sylvanas.

/thread

Also,

A popular misconception among the fanbase is that Thrall cheated in his final mak'gora against Garrosh when he used elemental magic. However, there has never been any rule forbidding the use of magic and spells. Moreover, there is a precedent for the use of magic in mak'gora, as both Shagara and Ashra made extensive use of it during their mak'gora. Thrall had also already used magic in the first mak'gora between him and Garrosh, by throwing lightning bolts.

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AU Ner'zhul could have challenged AU Grommash and chea... won the Mak'gora by just using his Shadow magic (mindblast, shadow corruption etc), same way Thrall did to Garrosh and stopped the Iron Horde.

Same with Gul'dan. He could easily slaughtered Grommash in a Mak'gora with his magic, and take "honorably" over the Iron Horde and made them drink Fel Blood, and eventually installed Blackhand, Kilrogg or Kargath as new Warchief.

What stopped Ner'zhul or Gul'dan from doing this? We saw at least Gul'dan taking down Grom in 1 sec. Defeating Chieftain/Warchief in Mak'gora gives you immense honor.... of course, if it's not seen as cheating by huge portion of viewers.

Was using magic in Mak'gora normalized after Thrall's duel? Because we can't have our nicest neighbor, most humanized Orc, never does anything wrong Orc, your perfect son-of-law Go'el a.k.a Thrall labeled as cheater? Despite that viewers thought he cheated.

The fact that Thrall got away from using magic an Orcish duel of Garrosh, creates plotholes. Imo it feels like the movie has well better thought about this than the game. I get Metzen hated his favorite Orc boy called cheater, but he is retired. Mak'gora rules need to be redefined for return of Garrosh and make sense with PAST lore.

Mak'gora meaning = Duel of HONOR.

There is a reason why every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior. And is honored and respected by their clan. Cheating is NOT honorable. Not by humans not by Orcs.

You're embarassing yourself with your blatant ignorance of wow lore.

[XalAtoh]

Probably because Gul'dan knew (rightly) that the Horde would never follow him, because he personally speaking had little to no honor and very little respect among the Horde as a whole - that is why the Shadow Council existed in the first place, to give Gul'dan all the levers of power while an "honorable" Orc exemplar like Blackhand served as the figurehead. Just like in real life, what is honorable or considered cheating is often entirely subjective and more often highly dependent on whether or not you received the outcome you wanted from a given conflict. Orgrim honorably defeated Blackhand in Mak'gora as well, but because Orgrim lacked Blackhand's popularity he was branded as a betrayer and called "The Backstabber" for a time afterward regardless.

If Gul'dan or Ner'zhul were widely respected and considered personally honorable, then yes; they could use their magical powers to slay any given Warchief in Mak'gora and the Horde as a whole would probably rally behind them.

It looks like lorewise (in MU, AU and even movie) it's accepted that Gul'dan is not popular among the Orcs and that they would not follow him, unless Gul'dan threatens them with death or promise immense power.

Which I find strange, he is ruthless, but so was Blackhand, Garrosh, Grom, Kargath, Kilrogg. He appears as old fragile individual... but so was Drek'thar and Geyah.

I guess it was because of his disturbing traits of a pure narcissitic psychopath shows off during a normal "Orcish conversation" or speeches..

Nonetheless, I still find it strange, that most Chieftains are Warrior. Like, even someone like Teron'gor or talented Farseer/Shaman could exploited the "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora" and lead a clan.

At least the Mak'gora lore makes more sense for Ogres, where Imperator Mar'gok rules the Ogres. A highly skilled mage, who could murder any "brute" honorably in a Mak'gora with magic. For Orcs? Not so much with all the Warrior Chieftains and Warchiefs.

[Jastall]

Because Mak'gora is like Calvinball or Whose Line Is It Anyway, the rules are made up and don't matter. Magic is forbidden, except when it's used and nobody cares. You need to wear armor, except all of them save one in the game and one in a comic 3 people care about were made with armored participants. Poison is bad but shadow enchanting your daggers to act as poison is OK. Just one weapon except when you have two or split your one weapon in two then it's gucci.

Mak'gora isn't an actual Orcish tradition, it's a plot device used to get a sorta dramatic duel in a situation where one or even both combatants would otherwise have no interest in said duel whatsoever.

[iamthedevil]

There is no Mak'gora rule book carved into stone, sorry. It's two dudes fighting to the death. It's that simple.

[Aucald]

It looks like lorewise (in MU, AU and even movie) it's accepted that Gul'dan is not popular among the Orcs and that they would not follow him, unless Gul'dan threatens them with death or promise immense power.

Which I find strange, he is ruthless, but so was Blackhand, Garrosh, Grom, Kargath, Kilrogg. He appears as old fragile individual... but so was Drek'thar and Geyah.

I guess it was because of his disturbing traits of a pure narcissitic psychopath shows off during a normal "Orcish conversation" or speeches..

Nonetheless, I still find it strange, that most Chieftains are Warrior. Like, even someone like Teron'gor or talented Farseer/Shaman could exploited the "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora" and lead a clan.

At least the Mak'gora lore makes more sense for Ogres, where Imperator Mar'gok rules the Ogres. A highly skilled mage, who could murder any "brute" honorably in a Mak'gora with magic. For Orcs? Not so much with all the Warrior Chieftains and Warchiefs.

Gul'dan, while masquerading as a more or less "normal" Shaman under Ner'zhul in the Shadowmoon Clan, was seen by most as overly sycophantic and ambitious. Traits he continued to possess when his true loyalties were finally exposed during the fall of Draenor. He is ruthless, by also entirely lacking in any kind of loyalty or empathy, and didn't really disguise that fact unless he was directly threatened (such as by Doomhammer after awakening to find his Shadow Council destroyed).

Nor all chieftains were warriors, either; though most Orcs admired martial strength in their leaders. The Thunderlords were led by Hunters, the Shadowmoon by Shaman, the Laughing Skull were led by a Mage (and an Ogre no less), the Dragonmaw by a Shaman and then a Warlock, and some of the other lesser clans may have been led by non-warriors.

[XalAtoh]

"Mak'gora" literally means "duel of honor". If two spellcasters want to have a magic mak'gora, so be it. If two orc warriors want to have a fight to the death with only their weapon then so be it. If I come up to you and say that I demand a duel, we can decide if it's a duel with guns or a fisticuffs duel.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora


/thread

Also,



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You're embarassing yourself with your blatant ignorance of wow lore.

If something can be called embarassing I would say it's your whole comment.

If you read this thread, you know linking a Wowpedia link written by randoms and nobodies is NOT the answer to this thread (at all). (And somebody did it before here). Anybody can Google "Mak'gora" and click on the first link. But it's fanmade summary, I'm not even talking about that the randoms even wrote their own conclusion like it matters.

You deciding that the thread is over with your "/thread" is most embarassing. Read the topic thread, someone said same thing and thread is not over. Stop pretending you're adding something intelligent to this thread when you're not.

Still wondering what the future is of "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora", and if it allows something like "pistol based" Mak'gora for modernized Horde. How does your fanmade article answer this?

Sorry - you have no clue what you're talking about

When are they gonna stop alt accounts making pointless threads forreal?

This is literally the only account I have. The last account I had was from years ago (also with less than 100 post I believe), I don't even remember the password and I have no access to it. Sadly it had a cooler name than this.

But why even bother writing a meanginglessly false accusation.

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Because Mak'gora is like Calvinball or Whose Line Is It Anyway, the rules are made up and don't matter. Magic is forbidden, except when it's used and nobody cares. You need to wear armor, except all of them save one in the game and one in a comic 3 people care about were made with armored participants. Poison is bad but shadow enchanting your daggers to act as poison is OK. Just one weapon except when you have two or split your one weapon in two then it's gucci.

Mak'gora isn't an actual Orcish tradition, it's a plot device used to get a sorta dramatic duel in a situation where one or even both combatants would otherwise have no interest in said duel whatsoever.

Someone who's analytics and actually speaks the truth...

I agree fully, that Mak'gora is kinda a plot device... that the rules not matter any more creates an inconsistent Mak'gora throughout Warcraft lore. Which is kinda bad if you ask me, but that's the level of Warcraft lore sadly..

[Irian]

Elementals aren't exactly benevolent, they don't mind it when their power is used for even worse things. The problem with Thrall was he no longer felt he was worthy of them so he involuntarily cut himself off from their power.

I'm constantly surprised how rarely people seem to know this or bring it up.

It's all but said ingame that Thrall's loss of his connection to the elements is self-inflicted. The elementals don't give a shit about Garrosh, or "cheating", the elemental planes don't even have laws. It's the same reason he had to leave the Horde to become the head shaman of the Earthen Ring; in lore, being a shaman requires an intimate connection to the elemental plane which actually takes up a lot of time and focus.

Thrall mentions how the elementals have "gone quiet" since his duel with Garrosh. It's not that the elementals aren't speaking to him, it's that he's not in the right mindset to hear them anymore.

[XalAtoh]

Gul'dan, while masquerading as a more or less "normal" Shaman under Ner'zhul in the Shadowmoon Clan, was seen by most as overly sycophantic and ambitious. Traits he continued to possess when his true loyalties were finally exposed during the fall of Draenor. He is ruthless, by also entirely lacking in any kind of loyalty or empathy, and didn't really disguise that fact unless he was directly threatened (such as by Doomhammer after awakening to find his Shadow Council destroyed).

Nor all chieftains were warriors, either; though most Orcs admired martial strength in their leaders. The Thunderlords were led by Hunters, the Shadowmoon by Shaman, the Laughing Skull were led by a Mage (and an Ogre no less), the Dragonmaw by a Shaman and then a Warlock, and some of the other lesser clans may have been led by non-warriors.

I personally consider Hunters also as athletes like Warrior. They just hang out more with their beasts I guess.

While there were definitely non-Warrior Chieftains, cannot deny the impossible: the most were actually warriors. Despite the unfavorable Mak'gora challenges they could get.

Dragonmaw also has Warrior Chieftains, like Zaela and the Fel Orc from Cataclysm, especially the notable ones from the biggest clans were Warriors, like Warsong and Blackrock and those are I believe considered as the most powerful/dangerous clans on Draenor (by Gul'dan himself I believe).

I think it's very strange for lore to have Orc Warriors as leader, as how fragile they are compared to Shamans, Warlocks even Mages, they could easily be killed. While Orc Shamans could be not as populated as Orc Warriors, there were enough Shamans in Orc Warrior Chieftain's lifetime to get challenged by one.

This could have been fixed of Mak'gora was just a fist fight with rules or atleast stricter Mak'gora rules. That would make sense why Blackhand and Hellscream's stay in power for generation after generation and multiple timelines.

[Mrbleedinggums]

If something can be called embarassing I would say it's your whole comment.

If you read this thread, you know linking a Wowpedia link written by randoms and nobodies is NOT the answer to this thread (at all). (And somebody did it before here). Anybody can Google "Mak'gora" and click on the first link. But it's fanmade summary, I'm not even talking about that the randoms even wrote their own conclusion like it matters.

You deciding that the thread is over with your "/thread" is most embarassing. Read the topic thread, someone said same thing and thread is not over. Stop pretending you're adding something intelligent to this thread when you're not.

Still wondering what the future is of "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora", and if it allows something like "pistol based" Mak'gora for modernized Horde. How does your fanmade article answer this?



This is literally the only account I have. The last account I had was from years ago (also with less than 100 post I believe), I don't even remember the password and I have no access to it. Sadly it had a cooler name than this.

But why even bother writing a meanginglessly false accusation.

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Someone who's analytics and actually speaks the truth...

I agree fully, that Mak'gora is kinda a plot device... that the rules not matter any more creates an inconsistent Mak'gora throughout Warcraft lore. Which is kinda bad if you ask me, but that's the level of Warcraft lore sadly..

If you're too ignorant to understand that magic has been used in previous mak'gora then that's your fault, not mine. Thread is still over, but feel free to post your nonsensical drivel.

[XalAtoh]

If you're too ignorant to understand that magic has been used in previous mak'gora then that's your fault, not mine. Thread is still over, but feel free to post your nonsensical drivel.

Blizzard regurarly writes inconsistent lore, that's why there are so many discussions.

That Blizzard is too spineless to write and define the rules properly, and keep it as ambigious as possible, is not my fault, not the community's fault. It's their fault and it's what it is.

But that doesn't mean we can't argue about it, year after year. Especially when this topic isn't necessary about Thrall and his label of "best, strongest, smartest and can't do anything wrong superhero Orc" that happened to be labeled as cheater by some.

It's about Mak'gora lore in general, and how "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora" affects the future of Warriors, Orcs and Horde and anything involved with it.

[Syegfryed]

Ah, I remember that he wanted to do it to the death like the old ways but couldn't remember if every thing else was the OG rules or not.

Well they wanted the OG, everything from the old times, they even used loincloth and had the shaman to bless the weapon, seems pretty archaic to me

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"Mak'gora" literally means "duel of honor". If two spellcasters want to have a magic mak'gora, so be it. If two orc warriors want to have a fight to the death with only their weapon then so be it. If I come up to you and say that I demand a duel, we can decide if it's a duel with guns or a fisticuffs duel.

and Thrall wanted a warrior duel, his weapon was the doomhammer, the rules are simple, if your weapon falls you use your fists, not powrful magic

magic can sure as hell be considered magic, its even worse when thrall literally invoked a third part, he don't use just his shaman inherent magic, he call for the hel of elements, third part was involved in the duel of honor, its literally a cheat, no matter how the wiki or the devs try to spin it.


make no sense say the poison is cheat but third part elements and magic are not.

The only time magic was all right when both fighters were using it, as the duel of honor it make sense for then to have the same tools.

[Aucald]

Blizzard regurarly writes inconsistent lore, that's why there are so many discussions.

That Blizzard is too spineless to write and define the rules properly, and keep it as ambigious as possible, is not my fault, not the community's fault. It's their fault and it's what it is.

But that doesn't mean we can't argue about it, year after year. Especially when this topic isn't necessary about Thrall and his label of "best, strongest, smartest and can't do anything wrong superhero Orc" that happened to be labeled as cheater by some.

It's about Mak'gora lore in general, and how "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora" affects the future of Warriors, Orcs and Horde and anything involved with it.

Not really too dissimilar from honor duels or gladiatorial games in real history, either - the rules were often arbitrary, ad hoc, and entirely contrived for a given scenario. The mistake I think arises more from the community demanding a ritual from an originally primitive and disparate culture be for some reason strongly codified when this wouldn't have been the case for the culture it arose from in the first place. We as the audience basically decide what is or isn't acceptable as concerns any given Mak'gora the same way the Orcs themselves argue and debate the matter internally. Perhaps if the Orcs ever get to the point of actually writing a uniform code of conduct then we'll see Mak'gora rigidly defined - since they've yet to even do that, though; the Mak'gora remains both contextual and ultimately subjective.

[Powerogue]

Saurfang deliberately dishonoured the Mak'gora.

You have a fair point on the magic weapons argument but I got to the end and what?

How dare Saurfang block her gun-in-a-swordfight cheating attack with his face!? Apparently.

Sylvanas on the other hand definitely cheated as she did not disclose that she had those powers beforehand. Falls under the same category as secretly poisoning the weapon. If both parties went in agreeing to poisoned weapons from the onset it'd be fine.

But as Aucald points out this is all kind of arbitrary anyway as this deciding of the rules never happens onscreen. We are literally the only people who care about trying to make this into some consistent, clear ruleset.

[Sorshen]

Can't believe 'Thrall cheated' is still a talking point in 2020. And throwing in the 3rd party poison sabotage. Also, op refuses evidence that doesn't suit his/her headcanon... what is there to discuss really? The ritual is subjective.

[Lolites]

Thrall defeated Doomhammer even before he trained to become a shaman.

It's something that was forgotten over time on the lore, but Thrall is one of the best orcish warriors alive, that was trained to fight and lead the Horde by humans since he was a baby.

i didnt forgot, and i didnt deny he knows how to fight, however when arguing that only wariors were chieftains it would be weird not to mention Thrall, who is after all shaman... and he didnt get to be chieftain/warchief bcs he was good fighter, or via makgora itself, he kind of inherited both positions

[Timester]

i didnt forgot, and i didnt deny he knows how to fight, however when arguing that only wariors were chieftains it would be weird not to mention Thrall, who is after all shaman... and he didnt get to be chieftain/warchief bcs he was good fighter, or via makgora itself, he kind of inherited both positions

Except he became the Warchief because he was the best fighter. That was the point of the Thrall's origin story, that why he led the revolts.

[Syegfryed]

Can't believe 'Thrall cheated' is still a talking point in 2020. And throwing in the 3rd party poison sabotage. Also, op refuses evidence that doesn't suit his/her headcanon... what is there to discuss really? The ritual is subjective.

why 3rd party poison is not good, but 3rd party elements are? is not a headcanon but a blizzard deliberate plothole to excuse thrall

[TheRevenantHero]

When a mak'gora is declared, both parties decide on the rules for that particular fight. And both parties have to agree to these terms. So if one of the terms was "no use of magic" and one of them use magic, it's considered cheating.

[Specialka]

why 3rd party poison is not good, but 3rd party elements are? is not a headcanon but a blizzard deliberate plothole to excuse thrall

Thrall using lightning in the first mak'gora before Wotlk was not an issue. Why would it be one now ?

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When a mak'gora is declared, both parties decide on the rules for that particular fight. And both parties have to agree to these terms. So if one of the terms was "no use of magic" and one of them use magic, it's considered cheating.

And that was not the case for any Thrall's Mak'gora.

[TheRevenantHero]

Thrall using lightning in the first mak'gora before Wotlk was not an issue. Why would it be one now ?

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And that was not the case for any Thrall's Mak'gora.

I suppose I should have added "usually" in there. If no rules are stated by either party, then literally everything can be used. Nothing would be considered cheating.

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If something can be called embarassing I would say it's your whole comment.

If you read this thread, you know linking a Wowpedia link written by randoms and nobodies is NOT the answer to this thread (at all). (And somebody did it before here). Anybody can Google "Mak'gora" and click on the first link. But it's fanmade summary, I'm not even talking about that the randoms even wrote their own conclusion like it matters.

You deciding that the thread is over with your "/thread" is most embarassing. Read the topic thread, someone said same thing and thread is not over. Stop pretending you're adding something intelligent to this thread when you're not.

Still wondering what the future is of "cheating/magic normalized Mak'gora", and if it allows something like "pistol based" Mak'gora for modernized Horde. How does your fanmade article answer this?



This is literally the only account I have. The last account I had was from years ago (also with less than 100 post I believe), I don't even remember the password and I have no access to it. Sadly it had a cooler name than this.

But why even bother writing a meanginglessly false accusation.

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Someone who's analytics and actually speaks the truth...

I agree fully, that Mak'gora is kinda a plot device... that the rules not matter any more creates an inconsistent Mak'gora throughout Warcraft lore. Which is kinda bad if you ask me, but that's the level of Warcraft lore sadly..

Much like actual wikipedia, wowpedia requires citations that are posted at the bottom of each page. So to say it's just "fanmade nonsense" just shows that you're incapable of admitting you are wrong.