Pugging Raids at Beginning of Expansion ?

[Thzz]

I've never raided with a guild because as I like to keep a more flexible schedule and not be tied down for 2-4 hours on any given night. I love M+ because I control my schedule.

Thinking about dabbling in raids via pugs at the beginning of SL and see if I like it.

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

[Rtrain]

I've never raided with a guild because as I like to keep a more flexible schedule and not be tied down for 2-4 hours on any given night. I love M+ because I control my schedule.

Thinking about dabbling in raids via pugs at the beginning of SL and see if I like it.

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

My best advice to you is to run your own pugs. This is the only way you’ll have the atmosphere you desire. Raids are doable and how toxic the group is usually depends on who’s in charge of the group.

[Xeion]

Mostly kinda the same as throughout an expansion, but tiny bit more on the relaxed side as raid is new and people are just taking in the fights for the first time.
Depends greatly what difficulty though. At normal loads of the raid will be full with people not super skilled, but just looking to trying the new raid. Same goes for HC outside of maybe Wednesday/Thursday where groups that frankly can do mythic fly through the raid.

[Kaver]

I've never raided with a guild because as I like to keep a more flexible schedule and not be tied down for 2-4 hours on any given night. I love M+ because I control my schedule.

Thinking about dabbling in raids via pugs at the beginning of SL and see if I like it.

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

You should really try joining a guild. I completely understand you point about having a flexible schedule, but it is so much more enjoyable and fun to raid with a guild. And there are many very casual guilds out there that just does heroic raids and doesn't require you to participate at all times. You can still pug when you want.

[Velerios]

You should really try joining a guild. I completely understand you point about having a flexible schedule, but it is so much more enjoyable and fun to raid with a guild. And there are many very casual guilds out there that just does heroic raids and doesn't require you to participate at all times. You can still pug when you want.

I personally tried it and it doesn't work out. Even in a very casual friendly guild, there is still the expectation there that you need to go online or that you can't go offline if necessary. For me i have both issues at home, so nope, this doesn't work out.

[Kaver]

I personally tried it and it doesn't work out. Even in a very casual friendly guild, there is still the expectation there that you need to go online or that you can't go offline if necessary. For me i have both issues at home, so nope, this doesn't work out.

That’s too bad. Pugging in WoW is just so incredibly toxic.

[RoKPaNda]

You should really try joining a guild. I completely understand you point about having a flexible schedule, but it is so much more enjoyable and fun to raid with a guild. And there are many very casual guilds out there that just does heroic raids and doesn't require you to participate at all times. You can still pug when you want.

Where? My main is in a Mythic guild, but I've tried to find these casual guilds that are out there for alts on other servers for when I just feel like dicking around in Heroic or whatever and I've never had any luck. Of course that could just be because guild recruitment tools suck in WoW.

[LanToaster]

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

From my Experience, while you get less people who leave after one wipe, you tend to start each ID/Run from Scratch and have to Progress each boss Again if you Pug.

As people said, you best form your own PuGs, and check out the people you invite, that way you will increase the chances of everyone beeing on the same Progress level as you.

[ID811717]

I've never raided with a guild because as I like to keep a more flexible schedule and not be tied down for 2-4 hours on any given night. I love M+ because I control my schedule.

Thinking about dabbling in raids via pugs at the beginning of SL and see if I like it.

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

Across Legion and BfA, I have cleared many HC raids in pugs on the first week of the raid release. The first raid of BfA was by far the most annoying experience to date. I expect the same from the first raid of Shadowlands. There are multiple related reasons for this:
1. For any mid-expansion raid tier, people start fully geared in mythic raid quality gear from the previous tier. The gap between previous tier's mythic raid gear and the next tier's heroic quality gear was usually very lenient, like 10-15 ilvls max. (I don't remember, and did not check the exact numbers, do not quote me on it). In contrast, at the very start of the expansion, straight out of the leveling experience - most people are very undergeared compared to the loot ilvl that drops from the HC raid. It makes the first raid harder, less zergable, than usual.
2. Many people reroll. Game mechanics change. So even if they are able to prove that they did "hard" content in BfA, it does not mean they can pull their weight in Shadowlands. Even if you were happy to judge entirely based on their BfA progress, the raider.io addon does not show previous expansion's progress so you have to check everyone manually online.

The above reasons add some uncertainty to pugging the first raid tier of the expansion, and I think it makes people less tolerant. That means: getting or handing out invites takes more time, and people are more likely to quit after random wipes.

---

However, I assume that clearing a HC raid in the first week might not be your goal. I'm not sure how the experience changes if you attempt to go slow on the progress. Most likely, you will get tired of people gate-keeping you from joining decent groups, and give up. Being (figuratively) well ahead of the curve helps with the entire experience a lot; the more you fall behind, the less options you will have to catch up and still have fun doing that.

[Velerios]

That’s too bad. Pugging in WoW is just so incredibly toxic.

Yeah, but if i need to decide between Raiding and helping my elderly Parents, i rather do the second. Then i deal rather with the toxicity than simply saying: sorry, i can't help you now, i need to raid. Because raiding does not even close on my priority list!

[Greyvax]

Just speaking for BfA, but Uldir, even heroic, was very puggable. In fact, i've done most of my progression thru pugs, since late MoP (with some random guilding mixed in), but i hate committing to schedules.

[Mirishka]

I've never raided with a guild because as I like to keep a more flexible schedule and not be tied down for 2-4 hours on any given night. I love M+ because I control my schedule.

Thinking about dabbling in raids via pugs at the beginning of SL and see if I like it.

What are PUG Raids like at the very beginning of expansion? Doable or a waste if time. More toxic, less, same?

My hope is since all are learning they would be more of cooperative atmosphere vs bitching and whining and blaming. False hope?

Create your own groups, and be clear about what you expect. When I create PuG groups for stuff I make it clear from the outset: act like a prick/drama queen, and you will be replaced.

[ryjkur]

Normal and HC is doable in pugs first week. Clearing full mythic with pugs is probably possible after week or two of tier release, I haven't stepped to mythics tho.

[Tyris Flare]

Normal and HC is doable in pugs first week. Clearing full mythic with pugs is probably possible after week or two of tier release, I haven't stepped to mythics tho.

No one is clearing full mythic in a pug for a very long time. Modern end bosses are 200+ wipefests unless we get another EN

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Normal and HC is doable in pugs first week. Clearing full mythic with pugs is probably possible after week or two of tier release, I haven't stepped to mythics tho.

Mythic Raid Hall of Fame takes months to fill up so surely there are pugs clearing it

[Doffen]

Have done so myself in both legion and bfa and it wasn't any issue. It's wise to be there first week though, have some gear because there is no achievement to be shown then. I have done both, start first week and then wait a few, but it has been fine either way, but first week with the raid, recommended.

Be patient though, the raid is new for everyone. Some people actually fail on easy stuff at first, then after a few tries they are the best in the group.

[Freedom]

From what I remember of doing it, it's not a good idea. Even if people aren't toxic, in PUGs, you never know what you're going to get, especially when people don't know the content. Most PUGs I tried early Cataclysm couldn't go much beyond Halfus Wyrmnbreaker or Magmaw, sometimes a good PUG getting the Omnotron Defense System or Valiona and Theralion.

I ended up in a guild early Mists where I probably would have been better off in a PUG, like, couldn't kill Gara'jal let alone Elegon for weeks, and wiped repeatedly to people eating rings on Imperial Vizier.

Just try to get in as good a guild as you can. If that's not an option, just prepare to likely be frustrated. If you know what you're doing leading PUGs of your own can be okay, but be aware some people will join for a boss or two and then leave; "Ooops gotta go time ran out!"

[Izzyfurious]

Hope you get lucky with getting a proper cordinated group OP and people with enough patient. I've personally decided after trying to pug for so many years and getting sick of impatient people that can't wait to get a full pug assembled. I am just gonna start buying boosts for raids next expansion instead.

[ID811717]

Mostly kinda the same as throughout an expansion, but tiny bit more on the relaxed side as raid is new and people are just taking in the fights for the first time.
Depends greatly what difficulty though. At normal loads of the raid will be full with people not super skilled, but just looking to trying the new raid. Same goes for HC outside of maybe Wednesday/Thursday where groups that frankly can do mythic fly through the raid.

Do not expect to clear a HC raid on the first 2 days of the first week in a pug. Unless it's a particularly easy tier (like Antorus).

From my anecdotal experience, world rank 300-900 guilds playing 3 days times 3-4 hours per week (for a total of 9h or 12h raiding time per week) - generally need all of this time to clear the HC raid on the first week of a new tier. Moreover, they often run into the choice of either having to bench underperformers, or risk having to extend raid times to actually finish off the last 1-2 bosses before the weekly reset. (In my experience, world 100 guilds handle the HC clear on the first week substantially better). If you are pugging HC on the first week, you can generally count on finding people of the same caliber as in world world rank 300 guilds, but you incur a substantial time penalty for being less organized (finding and replacing people, dealing with underperformers, having weaker raid leading)... so clearing the entire place in pugs will likely take you 2-3x times longer than in the aforementioned guilds. But what you gain in return - is having no strings attached; no one will expect you to show up for more raiding the next week and the weeks after...

Create your own groups, and be clear about what you expect. When I create PuG groups for stuff I make it clear from the outset: act like a prick/drama queen, and you will be replaced.

Being a strict raid leader sounds easier than it actually is. You need to be mechanically excellent yourself before people will give you an opportunity to fine-tune your raid setup at the expense of their time (waiting for replacements). I have seen pug leaders who don't understand what's going on and have no control of the raid; the moment they start misplacing blame on random raid members, the better players decide to bail out instead of waiting for yet another replacement guy to spend 10 min finding the entrance to the raid.

[Mirishka]

Being a strict raid leader sounds easier than it actually is. You need to be mechanically excellent yourself before people will give you an opportunity to fine-tune your raid setup at the expense of their time (waiting for replacements). I have seen pug leaders who don't understand what's going on and have no control of the raid; the moment they start misplacing blame on random raid members, the better players decide to bail out instead of waiting for yet another replacement guy to spend 10 min finding the entrance to the raid.

Absolute truth.