What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Varodoc]

yeah, they basically showed they were no different than Tyrande and Malfurion; banishing the Void Elves is Night Elf mentality - the Nightborne mentality would be keeping them secluded or monitored away from the Sunwell and have them thoroughly reviewed and examined to bypass any potential threat and then studied to learn of their potential power

That's literally what happened 7.000 years ago with Dath'remar Sunstrider. Malfurion and the druids banished him and his Highborne because they conjured a terrible magical storm over Ashenvale, which greatly threatened Night elf lands. Dath'remar abandoned his homeland and founded a new kingdom, and then established contact with the Human nations and built new alliances with them.

History has come full circle, only this time it's Dath'remar's people who are acting as the self-righteous, xenophobic, short-sighted hypocrites. The only reason why the blood elves were not butchered down to the last child during the Fourth War is because Alleria still feels connected to Silvermoon. Otherwise there was nothing stopping Alleria from just teleporting inside the Sunwell Plateau to corrupt the Sunwell again. If anything, Theron and Rommath should thank her for her mercy, before begging for forgiveness.

[Ardenaso]

History has come full circle, only this time it's Dath'remar's people who are acting as the self-righteous, xenophobic, short-sighted hypocrites.

to be fair following the Scourging, the Blood Elves have learned their harsh lesson against Anasterian's isolationist policy and their self-righteous + overconfident past and their vainglorious lifestyle; many Blood Elves are seen scattered along Horde settlements apparently willing to mingle with orcs and tauren

I'd say the Alliance High Elves are nowadays the self-righteous ones for "eww Horde", "eww vampirism", "eww green eyes" and "I don't wanna join Horde because that means betraying my friendship with the Alliance"; and they are xenophobic because "eww Horde (2)", and then they are short-sighted like they continue to oppose the Quel'thalas proper "just because" when the Sunwell and the management of Silvermoon are pretty safe in the Horde's hands (well before Void Elves happened that is, but I do lowkey hope the Void Elves do corrupt the Sunwell so that the Blood Elves would be back to their TBC roots and stop being boring Horde Silver Hand)

[Varodoc]

to be fair following the Scourging, the Blood Elves have learned their harsh lesson against Anasterian's isolationist policy and their self-righteous + overconfident past and their vainglorious lifestyle; many Blood Elves are seen scattered along Horde settlements apparently willing to mingle with orcs and tauren

I'd say the Alliance High Elves are nowadays the self-righteous ones for "eww Horde", "eww vampirism", "eww green eyes" and "I don't wanna join Horde because that means betraying my friendship with the Alliance"; and they are xenophobic because "eww Horde (2)", and then they are short-sighted like they continue to oppose the Quel'thalas proper "just because" when the Sunwell and the management of Silvermoon are pretty safe in the Horde's hands (well before Void Elves happened that is, but I do lowkey hope the Void Elves do corrupt the Sunwell so that the Blood Elves would be back to their TBC roots and stop being boring Horde Silver Hand)

High elves don't want to rejoin their kin in the Horde because they don't want to serve the genocidal side. It's that simple.

Even Alleria mentions how she very much wants to preserve Quel'thalas, but on the side of the Alliance. Both Alleria and Vereesa genuinely love their homeland, they simply believe it shouldn't be in the Horde.

And let's be real, Blood elves don't fit in the Horde. They never really fit and became playable just because asian players wanted a cute Horde race to play as (since, you know, orcs, trolls, tauren, and undead are ugly as shit), but maybe lorewise it made sort of sense back in TBC how the Blood elves would team up with the nearby Forsaken to take on the Scourge. But now the Blood elves have no reason to remain in the Horde. It's no coincidence that in MoP Theron tried to rejoin the Alliance (then once again in BfA he cooperated with Anduin and the Alliance against the lawful Warchief). The Purge of Dalaran happened for purely gameplay reasons, Blood elves players can't be forced to go over to Alliance side. Community-wise that would obviously be terrible.

So you can't bash Alleria and Vereesa for thinking that the Horde is no good for Quel'thalas. They are right, but gameplay-wise unfortunately the Blood elves will never leave the Horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

to be fair following the Scourging, the Blood Elves have learned their harsh lesson against Anasterian's isolationist policy and their self-righteous + overconfident past and their vainglorious lifestyle; many Blood Elves are seen scattered along Horde settlements apparently willing to mingle with orcs and tauren

I'd say the Alliance High Elves are nowadays the self-righteous ones for "eww Horde", "eww vampirism", "eww green eyes" and "I don't wanna join Horde because that means betraying my friendship with the Alliance"; and they are xenophobic because "eww Horde (2)", and then they are short-sighted like they continue to oppose the Quel'thalas proper "just because" when the Sunwell and the management of Silvermoon are pretty safe in the Horde's hands (well before Void Elves happened that is, but I do lowkey hope the Void Elves do corrupt the Sunwell so that the Blood Elves would be back to their TBC roots and stop being boring Horde Silver Hand)

What other guy said - not joining the horde has less to do with xenophobia or prejudice and more with “I dont want to be a part of a genocidal warmachine and murder everybody who is not horde”. Some people feel a bit dizzy when tasked with mass murdering, just a fact of life.

[Darth-Piekus]

What other guy said - not joining the horde has less to do with xenophobia or prejudice and more with “I dont want to be a part of a genocidal warmachine and murder everybody who is not horde”. Some people feel a bit dizzy when tasked with mass murdering, just a fact of life.

I'm pretty sure 95% of the civilized world would not go out on a day to start murdering.

[Ardenaso]

High elves don't want to rejoin their kin in the Horde because they don't want to serve the genocidal side. It's that simple.

And let's be real, Blood elves don't fit in the Horde. They never really fit and became playable just because asian players wanted a cute Horde race to play as (since, you know, orcs, trolls, tauren, and undead are ugly as shit), but maybe lorewise it made sort of sense back in TBC how the Blood elves would team up with the nearby Forsaken to take on the Scourge. But now the Blood elves have no reason to remain in the Horde. It's no coincidence that in MoP Theron tried to rejoin the Alliance (then once again in BfA he cooperated with Anduin and the Alliance against the lawful Warchief). The Purge of Dalaran happened for purely gameplay reasons, Blood elves players can't be forced to go over to Alliance side. Community-wise that would obviously be terrible.

What other guy said - not joining the horde has less to do with xenophobia or prejudice and more with “I dont want to be a part of a genocidal warmachine and murder everybody who is not horde”. Some people feel a bit dizzy when tasked with mass murdering, just a fact of life.

I'd say at least the TBC Blood Elves would "fit" on the Horde when they were still not Holy Elves, plus they're an underdog state who needed redemption in an underdog faction, that's why I want to keep pushing for Alteraci Humans for the Horde

also I mean they didn't have to directly participate in the Horde's undesirable activities, they could have been neutral just like the Kirin Tor (whom the leader was Vereesa's husband herself) and the Argent Crusade - that way they wouldn't have been enemies of the state and wanted as terrorists

[Toppy]

This another case of players and devs trying to shame Horde players despite horde players themselves having largely been against the bullshit that went on in BFA?

[Ardenaso]

This another case of players and devs trying to shame Horde players despite horde players themselves having largely been against the bullshit that went on in BFA?

I've seen people saying that the quest to kill the two civilian doctors and the civilians they were healing are Alliance bias

[Kithelle]

That is the true result of BFA, there is no way in hell for the Horde to regain the trust of the Alliance anymore. We will now always expect to be stabbed in the back, no matter how much Thrall and Baine talk about peace. I mean the players, not the characters in game, those will be as surprised as ever, but the playerbase will just sigh and go through it for a third time.

Does it matter what the players think? When the Horde loving Devs basically write all of the main Alliance leaders (other than Tyrande which she is probably the most hated Alliance leader) as wanting peace and forgiveness towards the Horde? Hell even Moira was talking about peace...Moira

[Darth-Piekus]

Does it matter what the players think? When the Horde loving Devs basically write all of the main Alliance leaders (other than Tyrande which she is probably the most hated Alliance leader) as wanting peace and forgiveness towards the Horde? Hell even Moira was talking about peace...Moira

Correction the Horde loving Devs did 3 things. First they wrote all of the Alliance leaders as wanting peace and forgiveness towards the Horde even those that were as anti Horde as hell. Secondly they pretty much eliminated every advantage the Alliance would have either by wiping it off the game or straight up ignoring it or nerfing it to the ground so that Garrosh/Sylvannas could have a chance to do their war. Finally they eliminated every single neutral faction that could potentially turn against them either making them stupidly neutral to the point of seeing Malfurion being inactive when you killed his wife on a raid or nerfing them to the ground.

So combining these 3 lore butchering things they could provide the Fourth War.

[Raisei]

Does it matter what the players think? When the Horde loving Devs basically write all of the main Alliance leaders (other than Tyrande which she is probably the most hated Alliance leader) as wanting peace and forgiveness towards the Horde? Hell even Moira was talking about peace...Moira

Well, wanting peace by itself isn't wrong. I would argue that truely wanting peace is the difference between Alliance and Horde. The Alliance really just wants peace so it can focus on different things, while the Horde has proven time and again, that it is unable to deal with the prospect of peace.

Which is not really surprising, especially for Orcs. War is the focal point of their entire culture (From leadership to social standing everything is achieved by being the strongest in fighting and weakness is very nearly a crime), take it away they suddenly have nothing anymore and would have to change. Something that the fanbase is absolutely unable to accept. Orc must be orc, so Horde must want war.

Ergo, as much as this new Horde council is pushed in our faces as a change, I just can't trust that Blizzard will not cave to the cries and whines of the fanbase that cannot live without it's WC2ish bloodthirsty Horde. Hell, the first step is already made in Shadow's Rising. Talanji just needs a few more voices on her side and the next war is ready to start.

So no, wanting peace on the Alliance side is not wrong. But sometimes you have to be willing to fight for it. The greatest lesson that Varian has learned over decades and is trying to teach Anduin.
What is wrong is this complete and utter trust in the Horde to manage this peace on it's own. Argueable my biggest point of contention with the story sofar is that the Alliance has no agency in BFA. All we do is react to Horde aggression and and when we have it finally under control we turn around and leave it be. No safeguards are put into place (from the Alliance side), no reparations are forthcomming. And this is the second bloody time this happens.

It's all based on Anduin's believe that the problem was only Sylvanas herself and that is simply not the case. The council scene makes it quite clear that many of the Horde leadership want to keep the war going, no matter what that means for them. They are not just bloodthirsty, but stupid in their bloodthirst, which is an even worse situation.
Yes, they are a minority yet, but if this minority turns into a majority or if a charismatic Warmonger appears and takes charge then we are right back where we started and the Alliance has no safeguard in place for any of this.

My biggest wish for this situation is that Calia and Derek actually have a secret mission to eliminate such threads before they can appear or at the very least report such threads to Jaina. She at least should have enough sense to have a contingency in place.
But that is never gonna happen, we'll play along with the Horde, beat the Jailer together and then the Horde will realize that they cannot be without war and attack us again and we will make surprised pikachu faces.

[cparle87]

Over all horde seems pretty close to the scourge but not even close to the legion, It’s also very likely I’m forgetting a ton of stuff.

The horde as of wow has,
Plagued lorderon.
Plagued south shore.
Blown up a school of Druids in stone talon.
Burned down teldrasila.
Plagued dark shore.
Destroyed the vale of eternal blossoms.
Bombed thereamore.
Plagued various area’s in northrend.

Destroyed their own city to prevent the enemy from occupying it. Pretty sure that's an accepted military tactic.
Plagued a military outpost with a known history of aggression against them.
That action was denounced at the highest levels so can it even be called a Horde action.
I'll give you that.
That one too.
That was Garrosh and he'd already broken with the Horde when he did that and, if you didn't notice, it's been fixed since.
Another totally acceptable military target enabling Alliance aggression across an entire continent of Horde territory.

[Cerus]

Wait, you mean the faction that has twice committed atrocities under dictators but only felt guilty after the dictator turned on them so they could use that person as a scapegoat to avoid punishment?

Again with the blaming of an entire faction.

Alrighty then. I’d say a the loss of a tree is not even close to the payback for the scourge, burning legion and concentration camps.

We can also blame SL on the Alliance since it was Arthas and the legion who set it all in motion.

[Raisei]

That action was denounced at the highest levels so can it even be called a Horde action.

Garroshs denial means nothing, especially considering he blew up a city later. It only makes him a hypopcrite.

That was Garrosh and he'd already broken with the Horde when he did that and, if you didn't notice, it's been fixed since.

1) Wrong. Garrosh did not break with the Horde. He expelled the people he did not want. He is the Warchief with absolute power and he has not been beaten in Mak'gorah at that point, so the ones we fight in SoO, those are the Horde. Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Lorthemar they are interlopers. Ergo the Vale does indeed go on the Horde.

2) Just because the Vale is healed now (and I did not see or hear the Horde having any part in that) does not mean the crime is forgotten.

Another totally acceptable military target enabling Alliance aggression across an entire continent of Horde territory.

1) The Alliance agression was in response to Garrosh invading Ashenvale, something that for some reason keeps slipping the mind of Horde posters. I really wonder if you folks would also talk of acceptable military targets if Orgrimmar had been wiped out.

2) Let's say a nuclear bombing of any target is okay. It isn't, but let's. What bloody well isn't okay is capturing the fleeing civilian refugees, torturing them to death and then displaying them like trophies in Orgimmar. That is disgusting and sick.

[VladlTutushkin]

This another case of players and devs trying to shame Horde players despite horde players themselves having largely been against the bullshit that went on in BFA?

Have to disagree on that. Most of the horde players loved it... until they realised that there might be some sort of payback incoming.

- - - Updated - - -

Destroyed their own city to prevent the enemy from occupying it. Pretty sure that's an accepted military tactic.
Plagued a military outpost with a known history of aggression against them.
That action was denounced at the highest levels so can it even be called a Horde action.
I'll give you that.
That one too.
That was Garrosh and he'd already broken with the Horde when he did that and, if you didn't notice, it's been fixed since.
Another totally acceptable military target enabling Alliance aggression across an entire continent of Horde territory.

Teldrassil was not “denounced”. It was awkwardly swept under the rug and horde pretends it never happened and elfs just went mad all of a sudden.
Also Soutshore as far as i recall was so understaffed in terms of actual soldiers and guards that they were pretty much defenceless and had to rely on adventurers to clear out murlocs and such. Point is - it was not a “military outpost”.

- - - Updated - - -

Again with the blaming of an entire faction.

Alrighty then. I’d say a the loss of a tree is not even close to the payback for the scourge, burning legion and concentration camps.

We can also blame SL on the Alliance since it was Arthas and the legion who set it all in motion.

Arthas was from LORDAERON. Not Stormwind. If you mad at him go whine at your pet zombies.

[Raisei]

Alrighty then. I’d say a the loss of a tree is not even close to the payback for the scourge

The Scourge started and led by an Orc warchief you mean?

, burning legion

Allies of the Horde??? No idea what that has to do with the Alliance.

and concentration camps.

Indeed, it is such a crime to punish alien invaders that slaughtered everything in their path TWICE. I cannot believe this bullshit argument still is tossed out. If only they had slaughtered the Orcs instead, then we wouldn't have a Horde and did not have to deal with these ridiculous defenses.

We can also blame SL on the Alliance since it was Arthas and the legion who set it all in motion.

We can not. If you want to use a chain of causality to determine guilt here, then you can't just stop it arbitrarily when you feel like it. If you say Sylvanas actions are the fault of Arthas then I have to say that Arthas actions are the fault of Ner'zhul and as easy as that the ball is back in the Horde's corner.

The difference is that Arthas was actually mindcontrolled/corrupted and had his soul removed before commiting his worst crimes, Sylvanas has complete free will for years and started being a monster the minute she got free. No one forced her to do aynthing. So no, the hole in the sky, that is her doing and no one else's.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Destroyed their own city to prevent the enemy from occupying it. Pretty sure that's an accepted military tactic.
Plagued a military outpost with a known history of aggression against them.
That action was denounced at the highest levels so can it even be called a Horde action.
I'll give you that.
That one too.
That was Garrosh and he'd already broken with the Horde when he did that and, if you didn't notice, it's been fixed since.
Another totally acceptable military target enabling Alliance aggression across an entire continent of Horde territory.

Rather something is a military target or not isn’t really relevant almost all of these also caused massive damage to the land and nature and pretty much every thing the legion/scourge destroyed was also a military target.

[gcsmith]

Does it matter what the players think? When the Horde loving Devs basically write all of the main Alliance leaders (other than Tyrande which she is probably the most hated Alliance leader) as wanting peace and forgiveness towards the Horde? Hell even Moira was talking about peace...Moira

I'm curious, what happened to the Vindicarr? We know it's around as the lightforged used its teleporters in BFA, but it has a weapon that can crack open the strongest legion stronghold there is... It could have easily crushed orgrimar in that final confrontation.

[Aucald]

I'm curious, what happened to the Vindicarr? We know it's around as the lightforged used its teleporters in BFA, but it has a weapon that can crack open the strongest legion stronghold there is... It could have easily crushed orgrimar in that final confrontation.

The Vindicaar is currently in high orbit over Azeroth, at least based on the Lightforged recruitment scenario. Due to its reliance on Argunite following the Argus story-arc, it may well be close to or out of fuel and thus was unable to contribute in the Fourth War.

[Sekach]

That's literally what happened 7.000 years ago with Dath'remar Sunstrider. Malfurion and the druids banished him and his Highborne because they conjured a terrible magical storm over Ashenvale, which greatly threatened Night elf lands. Dath'remar abandoned his homeland and founded a new kingdom, and then established contact with the Human nations and built new alliances with them.

History has come full circle, only this time it's Dath'remar's people who are acting as the self-righteous, xenophobic, short-sighted hypocrites. The only reason why the blood elves were not butchered down to the last child during the Fourth War is because Alleria still feels connected to Silvermoon. Otherwise there was nothing stopping Alleria from just teleporting inside the Sunwell Plateau to corrupt the Sunwell again. If anything, Theron and Rommath should thank her for her mercy, before begging for forgiveness.

Why are you the way you are? Is this some kind of an inverse reaction to widespread mockery of the Void Elf concept upon their release? You just felt some burning need to throw yourself behind some animated characters 130%? Like, i cant even believe there is a shred of self-awareness within you any more with the amount of mouth-frothing fanaticism that you spew when someone even thinks the word "elf". In all these discussions you are quite literally a pest.

Infracted.