Shadowlands Delayed -- What should be changed?

[orsraunia]

I understand the logic for covenant abilities and they are even going as far as obliterating them all to make it feel less "bad" for people that have issues with it. (I do not)

But the conduit lock has no logic behind it (the charges are better) but all they needed to do is have 1 intersection and make it a potency (so you can put your covenant one there and take different paths)

I hate to kind of monopolize the subject, with multiple posts, but I find this discussion interesting, because I am discussing this with someone who has beta experience. I am talking only from a theoretical stand point, since I have no beta access, so I believe that the clash of these two different perspectives can maybe bring out something useful. Having said that...

I'll speak in general, because being specific would mean a lengthy post. So, generally speaking, I believe the underlying problem atm is that we have a hybrid iteration of their original Covenants and Conduits design, which is trying to please all, but will probably end up displeasing all. I'd prefer it if we either got their original design (hard to switch) or decoupled class abilities, with the latter meaning having covenants as a customization option that doesn't contribute much to player power.

Their initial design for both Covenants and Conduits was to have a semi-permanent choice that you couldn't change on the fly, like between bosses, etc, like you do with talents. Now we have a hybrid system, which means that you may be able to make some changes for some bosses... like change your Covenant for the next week, for that mythic boss that gave you trouble last week, or even change some conduits between bosses.

Per what was recently announced, you'll be able to switch them 7 times per week, so you can change some between bosses, but this may mean that you've now expended your charges for mythic raiding, and you are forced to M+, PvP, etc with a significantly sub optimal spec for the rest of the week and there goes enjoyment out of the window and annoyance is walking through the door...

See where I am going with this? In my opinion, they should make a clear decision, a CLEAR design choice, and stick with it. Either make it hard enough to change, or just decouple class abilities from Covenants and remove conduit CD, which is the better choice imo (the latter). But still, I believe that either of these things would be better than a hybrid system per which it is not clear what the developer's intention is.

It's going to be a set it and forget I'm more disappointed so much time was wasted on such a poorly conceived system. Imagine how many resources could of been saved if covenants were only cosmetic?

I understand where you come from. I had the same perspective back when I was raiding competitively. Thing is that per what I am describing above, you may end up having to switch things around some, not enough to be optimal for all content, but enough to be optimal for some content, which will definitely end up being annoying... And this is why what they are doing, at its current state, imo is mostly pointless and annoying. It doesn't achieve their original intended purpose, makes no meaningful positive impact and has the potential to be one of the biggest annoyances of the expansion.

[Tesshin83]

I mean I don't really get the point of the new systems.

Conduits are glyphs. They are passive modifications on existing abilities and your not going to change them barring a few specific examples were one needs X amount of stats to be good. Why have them in the game at all?

I admit I miss pre legion wow were if you wanted to experience the game on a different class you just had to gear that class up not grind twenty plus hours of trivial content to then gear up like we have now.

It feels like these systems are designed around slowing down the top 50 guilds in the world rather then offering a positive experience for anyone else.

My biggest gripe with covenants and the systems behind them in general is that I don't want to cripple my character in different aspects of the game to feel special in one. Right now if you want to push ce and glad you need two characters. You simply wont get both on one without a hard carry.

Can we please stop this narrative that you are completely useless in one activity because you optimize for something else?

There are so many specifications you can do instantly to work around that one covenant ability or conduit, I find it impossible to believe you are useless in pvp because you optimize for something else.

If so, work around it.

[Krakan]

I hate to kind of monopolize the subject, with multiple posts, but I find this discussion interesting, because I am discussing this with someone who has beta experience. I am talking only from a theoretical stand point, since I have no beta access, so I believe that the clash of these two different perspectives can maybe bring out something useful. Having said that...

I'll speak in general, because being specific would mean a lengthy post. So, generally speaking, I believe the underlying problem atm is that we have a hybrid iteration of their original Covenants and Conduits design, which is trying to please all, but will probably end up displeasing all. I'd prefer it if we either got their original design (hard to switch) or decoupled class abilities, with the latter meaning having covenants as a customization option that doesn't contribute much to player power.

Their initial design for both Covenants and Conduits was to have a semi-permanent choice that you couldn't change on the fly, like between bosses, etc, like you do with talents. Now we have a hybrid system, which means that you may be able to make some changes for some bosses... like change your Covenant for the next week, for that mythic boss that gave you trouble last week, or even change some conduits between bosses.

Per what was recently announced, you'll be able to switch them 7 times per week, so you can change some between bosses, but this may mean that you've now expended your charges for mythic raiding, and you are forced to M+, PvP, etc with a significantly sub optimal spec for the rest of the week and there goes enjoyment out of the window and annoyance is walking through the door...

See where I am going with this? In my opinion, they should make a clear decision, a CLEAR design choice, and stick with it. Either make it hard enough to change, or just decouple class abilities from Covenants and remove conduit CD, which is the better choice imo (the latter). But still, I believe that either of these things would be better than a hybrid system per which it is not clear what the developer's intention is.




I understand where you come from. I had the same perspective back when I was raiding competitively. Thing is that per what I am describing above, you may end up having to switch things around some, not enough to be optimal for all content, but enough to be optimal for some content, which will definitely end up being annoying... And this is why what they are doing, at its current state, imo is mostly pointless and annoying. It doesn't achieve their original intended purpose, makes no meaningful positive impact and had the potential to being one of the biggest annoyances of the expansion.

I don't think you will to be honest. Covenants for most classes offer such powerful and specific forms of damage dealing that you will want a character centered around mythic raiding , pvp, or mythic+. Outside of that you simply wont be competing at the higher levels without a carry.

The system enforces min maxing to such a insane degree that trying to optimize for more then one end game is points.

A thousand different combinations but only one solution.

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Can we please stop this narrative that you are completely useless in one activity because you optimize for something else?

There are so many specifications you can do instantly to work around that one covenant ability or conduit, I find it impossible to believe you are useless in pvp because you optimize for something else.

If so, work around it.

You will always be weaker by a large margin over someone who choose correctly.

In raiding you will never be better then the guy who went overall damage.

In pvp assuming roughly the same skill you wont beat the guy with better burst or survival.

In mythic plus you wont beat the guy who went aoe.

How you decide to cripple your character will effect your end game unless you end game ends in heroic or lower content and unrated pvp.

[kaminaris]

You will always be weaker by a large margin over someone who choose correctly.

In raiding you will never be better then the guy who went overall damage.

In pvp assuming roughly the same skill you wont beat the guy with better burst or survival.

In mythic plus you wont beat the guy who went aoe.

How you decide to cripple your character will effect your end game unless you end game ends in heroic or lower content and unrated pvp.

That is the entire point of this system. Not by a large margin btw. Skill is still by far biggest deciding factor.

[Krakan]

That is the entire point of this system. Not by a large margin btw. Skill is still by far biggest deciding factor.

You have what proof to back this up?

In bfa this wasn't the case with azerite armor, essences,or corruption.

On beta you have classes doing double the damage of their own class with the same talents and spec.

Are you arguing about how you wish the system works or how it actually works?

There two different topics.

[Icelin]

Balancing the systems was the given reason for the delay in the post from blizzard announcing the delay.

I don't understand this logic from Blizzard. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to address balance but like why wouldn't they do this all before when many of us were talking about this after Blizzcon 2019. Why do it now and delay the game?

I think it will be virtually impossible for them to balance out how many different abilities and also legendaries on top of it. So it doesn't make sense. I mean just look to Legion with legendaries. Look to BFA with corruption. It's like they can tamper with damage but overall someone will always prefer a certain move or certain piece of gear. You just can't escape this.

I was hoping the delay would address better customization, but it is being released next week. So will I have to see if they put in minimal effort or not next week. I been pressing them for mogs. Mostly dresses, I did mention some RDR2 coats for the men. So I hope they address this. Here is an example of one of the dresses I wouldn't mind.. It's not even that complicated.

https://imgur.com/a/tOAOU8h

Now people might be like who cares about transmogs?
1) I don't think guys care if we get some dresses. Instead of the non-stop/consistent full on armor.
2) It can help stimulate the economy. Just make some BOEs and be done with it.

[kaminaris]

You have what proof to back this up?

In bfa this wasn't the case with azerite armor, essences,or corruption.

On beta you have classes doing double the damage of their own class with the same talents and spec.

Are you arguing about how you wish the system works or how it actually works?

There two different topics.

And have you got any proofs to back it up besides some beta stuff? Like actual logs from raids that have over 1000 sample size?

Because I have, 3 expansions have been pretty tightly balanced around 10-20%.
And last time I saw double difference in output was MoP.

People are literally reporting stuff doesn't even work yet, so no wonder they didn't adjust the numbers yet.
Not to mention, again 3 expansions have been balanced in first week or two.
It make sense if you actually think about it, because having small sample size is not going to help you with figuring out numbers.

You are spreading some nonsense without actually knowing how balancing will be done.

Hell, this shit is irrelevant anyways, why do i even keep talking about balance if bugs are still not fixed lol.

[Krakan]

And have you got any proofs to back it up besides some beta stuff? Like actual logs from raids that have over 1000 sample size?

Because I have, 3 expansions have been pretty tightly balanced around 10-20%.
And last time I saw double difference in output was MoP.

People are literally reporting stuff doesn't even work yet, so no wonder they didn't adjust the numbers yet.
Not to mention, again 3 expansions have been balanced in first week or two.
It make sense if you actually think about it, because having small sample size is not going to help you with figuring out numbers.

You are spreading some nonsense without actually knowing how balancing will be done.

Hell, this shit is irrelevant anyways, why do i even keep talking about balance if bugs are still not fixed lol.

I have no idea what your talking about with any of this.

I have beta logs and yes they are public you can find them right now and while I doubt it will be that bad at launch it will still be a train wreck.

When you say three expansions... what do you mean? Are you suggesting people using the wrong azerite armor,essences,and corruption are doing anywhere comparable dmg with people who are?

Everything for the most part works. There seems to be bugged trinkets right now and monks are a class with so many glitches the glitches have just become their class.

I am going to go out on a limb here and bet you at best completed heroic because what you believe about the game currently isn't true and it isn't something up for debate but a mathematical truth like 1+1=2.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

I'd be more than okay with them delaying the game until everything is the best they can deliver. I'm pretty tired of the half-assing we've seen from them in the past.

Where's the Blizzard that doesn't care about deadlines, but just makes things AWESOME?

I get that we're in a different time, but another game that isn't done is worse than delaying it for something great!

[kaminaris]

I have no idea what your talking about with any of this.

I have beta logs and yes they are public you can find them right now and while I doubt it will be that bad at launch it will still be a train wreck.

When you say three expansions... what do you mean? Are you suggesting people using the wrong azerite armor,essences,and corruption are doing anywhere comparable dmg with people who are?

Everything for the most part works. There seems to be bugged trinkets right now and monks are a class with so many glitches the glitches have just become their class.

I am going to go out on a limb here and bet you at best completed heroic because what you believe about the game currently isn't true and it isn't something up for debate but a mathematical truth like 1+1=2.

So you have no proofs as usual. Single logs are worthless.

And yes, people who are using off azerite, off essences and off corruptions can absolutely do comparable damage since those can be simmed and actually checked on logs. Check every single spec on logs because I already did.

It isn't up to debate because you have no clue what are you talking about.
Nobody sane will do balancing until EVERYTHING works, that would be doubling work.
Nobody with right mind will do balancing with small sample size, that would be retarded.

So again, bugs is what made it longer, balancing numbers is fairly simple no matter how "complex" system is (it's not).

[Toybox]

And yes, people who are using off azerite, off essences and off corruptions can absolutely do comparable damage since those can be simmed and actually checked on logs. Check every single spec on logs because I already did.

Comparable damage Maybe check something besides LFR logs.



Anyway, bug fixes, general balancing, & making The Maw not suck is all I hope for & expect from this delay. The rest of the Shadowlands either looks good or isn't going to be changed (like the capital being a bit bland), so I don't think it's too much to ask.

[Krakan]

So you have no proofs as usual. Single logs are worthless.

And yes, people who are using off azerite, off essences and off corruptions can absolutely do comparable damage since those can be simmed and actually checked on logs. Check every single spec on logs because I already did.

It isn't up to debate because you have no clue what are you talking about.
Nobody sane will do balancing until EVERYTHING works, that would be doubling work.
Nobody with right mind will do balancing with small sample size, that would be retarded.

So again, bugs is what made it longer, balancing numbers is fairly simple no matter how "complex" system is (it's not).

Well no you are utterly incorrect but you know what I'm ok with that.

I hope you have a good day.

[Quaade]

Warriors. Right now they're so useless at lvl 60 that no one save Warriors would notice if they were deleted from the game.

[Toybox]

Warriors. Right now they're so useless at lvl 60 that no one save Warriors would notice if they were deleted from the game.

Fury plays alright & brings the AP buff. It's damage isn't super competitive, but that'll get tuned at some point. I'm not too concerned about my raid spot as a DPS Warrior right now.

Arms, on the other hand... Arms needs some love.

[kaminaris]

Comparable damage Maybe check something besides LFR logs.



Anyway, bug fixes, general balancing, & making The Maw not suck is all I hope for & expect from this delay. The rest of the Shadowlands either looks good or isn't going to be changed (like the capital being a bit bland), so I don't think it's too much to ask.

One spec, try again. Of course there is going to be outliner or even 3. Plus you have 2 rings, not just one.

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Well no you are utterly incorrect but you know what I'm ok with that.

I hope you have a good day.

Nope I am not. Numerical balance is easy to do compared to finding and fixing bugs. It's not even up to discussion. Every programmer/developer will tell you that.

[Boricha]

I think class design and system revamps are done. The only exception is maybe DH's fodder to the flame, because it really doesn't work and they said that they would change it a while back. It will be mostly tuning and bug fixes now, both of which need a lot of work.

[orsraunia]

And for the few people saying that tuning/balancing affects only the 1%... Getting a legendary and then having a hotfix nerfing it by like 70% or more would be a huge clusterfuck for almost everyone who got it and definitely not just the "1%". And it's not only about legendaries ofc.

So, it goes without saying that they need to somewhat balance the game and then release it. Later they can fine tune, but hopefully they won't have to do big nerfs, etc, especially to legendaries, because it's not something you can change on the fly, but something you grinded for it and most importantly, grinded time gated resources as well. Meaning that people should not underestimate the importance of tuning. And I am not talking about tuning everything to be within a 1-3% margin, but reasonable tuning that eliminates the need for huge nerfs later on.

[kaminaris]

And for the few people saying that tuning/balancing affects only the 1%... Getting a legendary and then having a hotfix nerfing it by like 70% or more would be a huge clusterfuck for almost everyone who got it and definitely not just the "1%". And it's not only about legendaries ofc.

So, it goes without saying that they need to somewhat balance the game and then release it. Later they can fine tune, but hopefully they won't have to do big nerfs, etc, especially to legendaries, because it's not something you can change on the fly, but something you grinded for it and most importantly, grinded time gated resources as well. Meaning that people should not underestimate the importance of tuning. And I am not talking about tuning everything to be within a 1-3% margin, but reasonable tuning that eliminates the need for huge nerfs later on.

That is actually exactly what they shouldn't do. They should just tell playerbase to pick what they like because best options are going to be nerfed.
And there is no reason to not do so.

Ideal system would be balancing patches every week ie nerfing best options so they are mid-pack and buffing worst ones so they are higher up.
So that king wouldn't rule for more than a week.

[Quaade]

Fury plays alright & brings the AP buff. It's damage isn't super competitive, but that'll get tuned at some point. I'm not too concerned about my raid spot as a DPS Warrior right now.

Arms, on the other hand... Arms needs some love.

After Condemn was lowered for Fury it's dubious if even the BS buff can make enough of a difference. It's +5% AP instead of +5% DPS.

[Toybox]

After Condemn was lowered for Fury it's dubious if even the BS buff can make enough of a difference. It's +5% AP instead of +5% DPS.

I'm not worried about tuning as much as I'm worried about gameplay at this point. Fury plays just fine, & the condemn nerf kinda made sense given how whirlwind interacts with our single target abilities. Arms just doesn't play as good. It was a poor spec with a few heavy bandages on it (corruptions/essences), but now they're gone, it's easy to see just how bad it is.