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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Beam was so i could be dps but still have the benefits from tank.

    I never tanked M+ over 9 or any raids, it was just to make M+ more enjoyable that i liked it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Fixed that for you.


    I really dono why any one would dislike it, Corruption helped to remove some of the worst parts of the WoW gameplay.
    Either you are trolling or an extreme outlier opinion. The consensus of the player base is pretty much that both azerite traits and corruptions were aweful and should never have made it into the game in the state they were.

    Also.. go pvp and watch a DH with 1.5m hp proc a beam and 1 shot people on the other team. No counterplay at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vulfrika View Post
    Playing as a living meat shit is both boring and outdated game design. You know what people are doing in Classic right now? Tanking with two-handers, because just stacking threat and moving a boss back and forth is fucking boring.
    The solution is not RNG dps, but tanks should either be able to do damage on par with an actual DPS, or tanking as a concept should get a remake.
    What you mean in classic.. we did that shit in vanilla.. and you did it mainly for the threat not the dmg. There were massive threat issues in vanilla until they fixed shield slam.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    Either you are trolling or an extreme outlier opinion. The consensus of the player base is pretty much that both azerite traits and corruptions were aweful and should never have made it into the game in the state they were.

    Also.. go pvp and watch a DH with 1.5m hp proc a beam and 1 shot people on the other team. No counterplay at all.
    I would never go PvP, But seems fun to be such a DH.

    I mean that’s the reason why people made twinks for the various lvl bracketts in the past, To one shot or easily beat peoole.

  3. #163
    Sure, TD was a fun proc, but you'll feel the aoe caps a lot more than the missing corruption. And you'll feel squishier, because the squish(!) was asymmetrical between players and npcs.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    Either you are trolling

    Ding ding ding ding

  5. #165
    Bloodsail Admiral Raspberry Lemon's Avatar
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    you mean start being fun again?

  6. #166
    Honestly, all I want is to have WotLK +BlockValue Protection Paladin back. Or something similar.

    Have the DPS whine at you because your HP is lower than the healer’s and that they won’t be able to do their DPS, and have the healer whine at you because you will be one-shot. Then have the DPS whine at you because you are out-damaging them, and the healer whine at you because you’re not taking damage and you are healing the rest of the group faster than they can.

    Good times.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Antitrauma View Post
    The thing is, that would not work. It would essentially mean that Tanks have an unfair advantage over other players who choose to play healer or DPS. ANET tried this approach of doing away with the holy trinity of DPS, Healer, Tank but quickly learned about the error of this logic in high level fractrals where "self sufficient" tanky classes were clearing higher level fractals whilst those players who had put the effort into getting pure DPS classes to 60 were struggling to even solo ascalonian dungeon.

    The biggest farce was the introduction of Vengence as a mechanic for Tanks, I think it really set a messy precedent for expansions to follow.

    You first mentioned that tanks should be self sufficient and that the healer should focus on the DPS and her/himself and that the tank can be "Mr. Big biceps look at me in the corner", one question; where is the teamwork in this?

    If this were to become a thing why even bother having healers and pure DPS? Trust me when I say this, Arenanet played with this idea and at world solo level its good on paper but anything competitive like hugh level fractals or PVP you need dedicated healers like your druids or firebrand and your dedicated tanks like your Chronos.

    World of Warcraft is no different. Having to rely on someone is not a bad thing, it promotes good team work.
    Given your profile picture I'm just going to assume you're pretty biased on this subject, but even ignoring that tanks in PvP is VERY clearly something Blizzard doesn't want. Tanks RIGHT NOW can technically solo high level M+, it's just not time efficient at all, as it takes like 8 hours to do something that you and a team could do in less. The teamwork aspect of tanking already exists in CC, mob positioning, and (usually) being the one to set up coordination/the route.

    And it's not about being "Mr. Big biceps look at me in the corner" it's about having actual agency in your role. The tanks are expected to take large hits for the team, being able to deal with those large hits themselves gives them actual gameplay, rather than the incredibly easy task of using active mit, which some classes just have up 100% of the time anyway. In BFA tanking pre-corruption just felt like being a bad DPS, with less room to improve that DPS than pure DPS. Sure we technically were getting hit, but that mattered very little outside of a small number of fights. Post-corruption felt like a joke. Twilight Dev was funny, but didn't feel good (to me) because it was so random, and unreliable.

    Tanks need some aspect to improve on in one way or another. We either need to do (actual) damage, or need to become self sufficient at some point. Improving week-on-week feels good/rewarding as a player (at least to me). In Legion we had everything I'm asking for, and the game didn't fall apart. This isn't an "on paper" thing, we've seen it. Unless you're talking about something like queue times, or raid spots, there's no real "Unfair advantage" to playing any of the roles. If you were referring to those things, they already exist.
    In Legion there were very few high M+s done without a healer, and they were (to my knowledge) only really done abusing the fact that warlock self sustain was absolutely out of this world broken, especially with coordinated health cookies.

  8. #168
    ITT: Tanks justify and rationalize doing absurdly broken BURST aoe damage leading to them legitimately topping DPS on many pulls, while some also having ridiculously stupid levels of self healing. Yeah I mean, what could honestly be wrong about doing all 3 roles well? Things like TD and some of the azerite abilities/essences that enabled tanks to do a lot of damage and also have absurd levels of self heal/survivability were cool the first few times you saw them, and then it became apparent how silly and broken they were. These things are more an indictment on the incompetence of this current dev team when it comes to balancing of classes and how out of control their borrowed power systems are and how they still continue to want to double down on them.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by vulfrika View Post
    Playing as a living meat shit is both boring and outdated game design. You know what people are doing in Classic right now? Tanking with two-handers, because just stacking threat and moving a boss back and forth is fucking boring.
    The solution is not RNG dps, but tanks should either be able to do damage on par with an actual DPS, or tanking as a concept should get a remake.
    Maybe you should roll a DPS, or change specs to DPS then?

    Warriors are 2H dps/prot tanking in classic because they want to generate more threat (their job), not because they're trying to compete with DPS (they aren't even close even as 2H, which is the way it should be).

    So basically yes, you are agreeing that tanks are entitled and want to do the same DPS as a DPS class, while retaining all the perks of being a tank.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    pretty much back to doing 30-40% of a dps while moving raid bosses on rails for tanks. Tanks once again in SL have little impact on their own hp bars except for dk i guess. I do love just being a meat shield that moves the boss from set location to set location while doing almost no damage or control on my survivability.

    Edit: atleast our aoe dps is ok for mythic+ i just hate the state of tanks in raid, its boring AF and has almost no impact assuming you can handle the basic rotation.
    I mean honestly that sounds awesome to me. I never enjoyed being forced to keep myself alive. I liked playing a tank in vanilla, tbc, and wrath. I liked being the meat shield. But I confess I also like aggro being important. So I get that in the post aggro world tanks need something else to do other than auto attack and move a boss.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Gonna suck big time to lose beam of devestation, that was one of the most fun things ever.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you consider twilight devastation "fun"? It's a random proc, that you have no control over. I guess you can like the sheer amount of damage, but i fail to see how it is 'one of the most fun things ever'. Your gameplay will be exactly the same without it?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I remember being a Pally tank in Burning Crusade. Basically no DPS at all. Doing heroic SLab and Blackheart the Inciter got all the DPS killed with his "Time for Fun!" mind control, leaving me (Pally Tank) and the (Pally) healer. It took absolutely forever to kill him - we couldn't kill each other in the MC phases because of our teeny-tiny DPS, and we couldn't kill him fast in the main phases because of our teeny-tiny DPS. It was hilarious.
    You've lost the dps ... of course it took forever, that shouldn't mean tanks should compensate and do the dps's job. If the tank died instead of all the dps, the group would have wiped, it would have made no sense for the group to whine that they didn't kill the boss just because the tank died.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you consider twilight devastation "fun"? It's a random proc, that you have no control over. I guess you can like the sheer amount of damage, but i fail to see how it is 'one of the most fun things ever'. Your gameplay will be exactly the same without it?
    I can see his point of view, its like a second taunt button for when you're tanking and it does massive numbers ofcourse.

  14. #174
    Good .

    If holding aggro , positioning mobs,using your skills to survive is boring to you and you want to see big numberz , go play a dps .

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    I can see his point of view, its like a second taunt button for when you're tanking and it does massive numbers ofcourse.
    But it's not a button. It just happens.. or doesn't, in which case the next DPS that has it happen will just generate more threat than you and have their face mauled instead of you. Unless you constantly check your DPS meter the only place where you would actually notice that is while doing world content alone or solo visions.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    But it's not a button. It just happens.. or doesn't, in which case the next DPS that has it happen will just generate more threat than you and have their face mauled instead of you. Unless you constantly check your DPS meter the only place where you would actually notice that is while doing world content alone or solo visions.
    Yeah and I was fine with that, TD was fun to have procc and it felt really good once it melted a pack of mobs.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    You've lost the dps ... of course it took forever, that shouldn't mean tanks should compensate and do the dps's job. If the tank died instead of all the dps, the group would have wiped, it would have made no sense for the group to whine that they didn't kill the boss just because the tank died.
    You misunderstand - it was actually a good laugh, and wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic if tank and healer had had good DPS.

    That said, DPS then was a bit too low - AoE grinding mobs was a really time-consuming business with mana management a big deal because of atrocious DPS.

  18. #178
    my frost dk is ready here i come 2handers!

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Gonna suck big time to lose beam of devestation, that was one of the most fun things ever.
    The corruption system could have been better, the incarnation and power levels they implemented was the equivalent to camping with an awp in counterstrike.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I never once said I thought tanks should out dps dps, and tank self healing is also known as mitigation.
    What is my reward as a tank of performing well? For having a clean rotation?
    That a fight dies.

    You as a tank are there as a role which is required - Taking the hits. Your reward as a tank is not dying and successfully defeating an encounter. If you really need a bar to watch to make sure you're doing the best, make sure you're taking the most damage, then you're doing right.

    You're not supposed to be anywhere near top damage. You're not supposed to be competitive damage. You're not supposed to be completely self sufficient. You're not supposed to really even contribute to the fight in any meaningful way. (It used to be that your job was juggling and maintaining aggro, but current day WoW removed any aggro issue entirely, so now your only job is taking face hits.)

    You as a tank, are there to keep everyone else alive by tanking the boss. That's it. If you aren't there, everyone dies. If you are, and you do your job right, the fight is doable. That's your job as a tank. It has nothing to do with damage.

    And no - Tank self healing is the same as healers healing. Mitigation is damage reduction, thus mitigating the damage to keep you alive longer. Healing just keeps you alive, it doesn't keep you alive longer, it keeps you alive. Too strong and you don't need a healer because it keeps you alive forever, which is unacceptable. Too weak and self-healing tanks have no control over their survivability, because it doesn't keep you alive any longer at all.

    The simple way to put this is: Can you outheal a boss' damage? If so, your self healing is too strong. If not, you're not self sufficient enough for self healing to matter. This is why self-healing tanks have been difficult to balance - Because when they're good, they're better than the other tanks without question as healers can deal more damage instead of healing the tank. But if they're not good, they're basically wet paper that tears at a single hit.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-10-14 at 01:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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