If the Lich King had won, and conquered Azeroth...

[tommyhil622]

If The Lich King (arthas) had won, in hindsight, would the Jailer's job been any easier? What implications would that have had to the shadowlands? Or perhaps it would have thrown a wrench in The Jailer's plans who knows?

[NorthernDragon]

If The Lich King (arthas) had won, in hindsight, would the Jailer's job been any easier? What implications would that have had to the shadowlands? Or perhaps it would have thrown a wrench in The Jailer's plans who knows?

Presumably all life would be souls trapped in undead husks until Deathwing destroyed everything

[Schattenlied]

From what I can tell it seems like the Jailor's plan was to use the Lich King to protect Azeroth from the forces that wished to destroy it/use it to destroy the universe (the Legion and Void), until he was in a position to act upon it himself. So no, it wouldn't throw a wrench into the Jailor's plans, that WAS his plan, the wrench was us killing Arthas and passing the helm on to someone too strong of will for him to control (Bolvar), which is why he sent Sylvie to go break the Helm.

[Sondrelk]

Presumably if the Lich King had succeeded then the machine of death would have broken one way or the other, except without the heroes of Azeroth to go to the Shadowlands the Jailer would have won.

You have to remember that even if Arthas didnt seem to think himself subservient to anyone, that didnt mean he was incapable of working with people,, which again should mean he was susceptible to being tricked.
He could easily strike up an alliance with Helya when he went ot purge the Broken Isles, use the lantern or whatever and then have it break if that was what caused the machinery to break.

[Schattenlied]

Presumably all life would be souls trapped in undead husks until Deathwing destroyed everything

Perhaps... But without the intervention of the Alliance and Horde, the Lich King would have likely succeeded in resurrecting Galakrond, who would have probly had no trouble ripping Deathwing a new one.

[Ethas]

From what I can tell it seems like the Jailor's plan was to use the Lich King to protect Azeroth from the forces that wished to destroy it/use it to destroy the universe (the Legion and Void), until he was in a position to act upon it himself. So no, it wouldn't throw a wrench into the Jailor's plans, that WAS his plan, the wrench was us killing Arthas and passing the helm on to someone too strong of will for him to control (Bolvar), which is why he sent Sylvie to go break the Helm.

This forum occupied by Aliiance makes me laugh so hard xD
Bolvar is nothing she wrecked him in an instant.

[darkoms]

I'm amused by people who think Arthas could win XD

[tommyhil622]

I'm amused by people who think Arthas could win XD

I don't think he could win because the fate of every wow villain is to lose otherwise there's no game i think. This is more a theatrical view with the new knowledge of the lich king connection to the maw/jailer

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From what I can tell it seems like the Jailor's plan was to use the Lich King to protect Azeroth from the forces that wished to destroy it/use it to destroy the universe (the Legion and Void), until he was in a position to act upon it himself. So no, it wouldn't throw a wrench into the Jailor's plans, that WAS his plan, the wrench was us killing Arthas and passing the helm on to someone too strong of will for him to control (Bolvar), which is why he sent Sylvie to go break the Helm.

The only counter to that would be that if Arthas held on to that power, not sure if Slyvannas would have been able to beat him to shatter the helm and cause the rift.

[Varitok]

I'm amused by people who think Arthas could win XD

If we are talking raw power without WoW villains being required to die, the Lich King would have absolutely destroyed everyone. Every single dead enemy soldier is another soldier for him. Not even counting creatures in that either. Not to mention that the knowledge they had on military intelligence he could acquire from his newly raised soldiers would have been a game changer from a strategy viewpoint.

[loras]

If The Lich King (arthas) had won, in hindsight, would the Jailer's job been any easier? What implications would that have had to the shadowlands? Or perhaps it would have thrown a wrench in The Jailer's plans who knows?

I dunno, given how many others weren't exactly susceptible to necromancy i suspect Arthas would still have quite some trouble subjugating the world even if i.e. all humanoid life were vanquished.
But personally, i think the Legion would have ripped whatever fighting the void and death would be doing on a lifeless world to shreds and claim Azeroth.

They're powerful, but both gimped by various circumstances and eachother.

And frankly i think the void would likely be able to rally the remainder of life under its banner, willingly or not, and provide a resistance against which the scourge would not be able to succeed, seeing how it is not limited to corrupting living things and is by far the more powerful "telepathic" power.
(and let's not forget their elemental armies which alone might already prove potent enough to stop the scourge, to say nothing of i.e. the runeforged iron dwarves and such, or Deathwing for that matter)

[Darknessvamp]

Pragmatic view: The Jailer didn't exist when Arthas was Lich King so conquering Azeroth wouldn't have affected his plans as they did not exist.

Retroactive view: Well the Legion would still be a threat even if Arthas had won and the question would be if the increased size of the mindless Scourge armies and more territory under his command would have been enough for him to repel their invasion. As to whether Arthas was working for the Jailer, this isn't suggested and the fact they went all in on Arthas was in full control since WotLK then I doubt he would assist his plans. Additionally I guess the fact Arthas was still alive could have technically contributed to the thrown wrench in his plans.

[loras]

Pragmatic view: The Jailer didn't exist when Arthas was Lich King so conquering Azeroth wouldn't have affected his plans as they did not exist.

Retroactive view: Well the Legion would still be a threat even if Arthas had won and the question would be if the increased size of the mindless Scourge armies and more territory under his command would have been enough for him to repel their invasion. As to whether Arthas was working for the Jailer, this isn't suggested and the fact they went all in on Arthas was in full control since WotLK then I doubt he would assist his plans. Additionally I guess the fact Arthas was still alive could have technically contributed to the thrown wrench in his plans.

While i agree that the Jailor did not exist during WotLK i do believe they incorporated death vs. void stuff in it, given the antipathy between Yogg-Saron and the Lich King's minions. It would also explain Yogg-Saron's odd preference for the usage of nonliving armies in the form of the runeforged and such.

I think it was heavily implied death and the void had a severe faling out during that time, or at least some of their representatives on Azeroth did.

After all Yogg-Saron was mustering an unraiseable army at Ulduar, and it was not exactly aimed at the world of the living, nor suited to fight them.

Perhaps N'zoth was not the first old god to warn of death's threat, which has now been made out to be led by the jailor.

[Leyre]

I'm amused by people who think Arthas could win XD

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Arthas won, Tirion had to use a stupid "deus ex machina" to help us

[Kithelle]

This forum occupied by Aliiance makes me laugh so hard xD
Bolvar is nothing she wrecked him in an instant.

She wrecked him because she was empowered by The Jailer...or did you forget that without his power she was bested by Genn

Sylvanas white knights make me laugh so hard when they forget how meh she was before she was empowered by The Jailer

[loras]

She wrecked him because she was empowered by The Jailer...or did you forget that without his power she was bested by Genn

Sylvanas white knights make me laugh so hard when they forget how meh she was before she was empowered by The Jailer

Also how she got shot dead by Godfrey, forced into retreat by random demons, got outwitted by pretty much all around her...

[darkoms]

?????????????????????????????

Arthas won, Tirion had to use a stupid "deus ex machina" to help us

How tired I am of this stupid argument ... If you are surprised that PALADIN used LIGHT, then I do not know what to argue with you.

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If we are talking raw power without WoW villains being required to die, the Lich King would have absolutely destroyed everyone. Every single dead enemy soldier is another soldier for him. Not even counting creatures in that either. Not to mention that the knowledge they had on military intelligence he could acquire from his newly raised soldiers would have been a game changer from a strategy viewpoint.

If you read the Chronicle, you would know that Arthas understood that he had no chance in open war and that the Alliance and Horde could defeat him, so he needed to lure the champions. I advise you to read this topic.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...e-is-overrated

[jackofwind]

How tired I am of this stupid argument ... If you are surprised that PALADIN used LIGHT, then I do not know what to argue with you.

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I mean Tirion did something no one had ever seen before to break FM after we had already lost, at which point Arthas was beaten by his own collection of defeated souls. Up until that point there was no reason to assume FM could even be broken at all.

We really didn't kill him ourselves at all, and the fact that Blizzard can always invent a new power for whoever needs to beat someone at any point makes Warcraft power rankings kind of a moot point.

[Mehrunes]

Perhaps... But without the intervention of the Alliance and Horde, the Lich King would have likely succeeded in resurrecting Galakrond, who would have probly had no trouble ripping Deathwing a new one.

Galakrond died to a rock and had trouble with Aspects back when they were still proto-drakes. Corrupted Deathwing survived things like a fight with all the other Aspects or getting blasted with the Dragon Soul, one of the strongest artifacts on Azeroth, multiple times in a row. All the while being able to control earth itself and being strong enough to shatter the world. On top of that Deathwing was virtually immortal and Kalec was unable to destroy his tissue samples even with pure Arcane energy. They reformed shortly after and only became agitated.

As per Alexstrasza, Deathwing had to be outright unmade to be defeated. That's why they went with the crazy time heist of the Dragon Soul. Nothing else could have defeated him. And since undeath and Shamanism do not mix, even if the Lich King would somehow be able to travel in time to obtain it, he'd still be unable to even make the Dragon Soul work against Deathwing.

And, for the same reason, the Scourge wouldn't be able to defeat Chromatus either, meaning that Deathwing's forces would have not one, but two overpowered dragons that the Lich King wouldn't be able to do squat about. And that's if Deathwing didn't just send Ultraxion in the Twilight realm to Icecrown only to have him explode in Arthas' face.

And even if Arthas managed to pull a victory out of his ass via some miracle, he'd still get defeated by the Legion.

[darkoms]

I mean Tirion did something no one had ever seen before to break FM after we had already lost, at which point Arthas was beaten by his own collection of defeated souls. Up until that point there was no reason to assume FM could even be broken at all.

We really didn't kill him ourselves at all, and the fact that Blizzard can always invent a new power for whoever needs to beat someone at any point makes Warcraft power rankings kind of a moot point.

One powerful artifact destroys another powerful artifact. I'm not sure if this is something impossible.

[Mehrunes]

She wrecked him because she was empowered by The Jailer...or did you forget that without his power she was bested by Genn

Sylvanas white knights make me laugh so hard when they forget how meh she was before she was empowered by The Jailer

Genn crashed a fragile lantern. That's all. Other than that he did jack shit to Sylvanas herself. He landed a direct hit on her face and didn't even leave a scratch, despite effortlessly killing Felguards at the Broken Shore with those same paws just a few days earlier. All the while she flipped over him, shooting him with poisoned arrows that made him collapse and required him to get hauled by his soldiers. The forgetful one here is you.