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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Here. I fixed your post so it complies with the common courtesy shown when communicating with other people:



    You can get your point across without being rude. The OP even expressed earlier that his focus is random BGs which is usually a place for less experienced players. It works for him and he is having fun using it. Trying to somehow bring him down for absolutely no good reason is just a bad move.
    You can be experienced and terrible. I'll be the first to admit I have tried for years to use a mouse to move and just can't and as such movement is one of my flaws that will never change in terms of pvp, but I make up for it in other ways and not everyone is as lucky. People can be bad. There is nothing rude or wrong about saying people are bad. I am bad at mouse movement. Stop this nonsense that stating facts are bad or rude....this is why I loved the first French Canadian woman I met and as a gay man I was like OMG I'd marry her. She said what was on her mind and said it matter of factly. It wasn't meant to be rude. It was stating what we all knew was obvious.

  2. #22
    The disconnect / disagreement here is that you insist only a "top player" can counter your opener. No, that's not true. Anybody with even a basic understanding of what to do in PvP should be able to counter it.

    Great that you are having fun, but it's objectively not a good opener.

    BTW the reason Pika skips SnD is that he gets it automatically with the Premeditation talent. The reason he skips Rupture is that there is no % modifier to damage from having Rupture applied any longer (this was not the case in past expansions). His goals in the opener are simple: 1. seamless stunlock with NO GAPS, and 2. the most burst damage possible while doing that. Personally I liked it way better when SnD and Rupture factored into the optimal Subtlety PvP opener, but this is the way Blizzard designed the spec now. This is part of the reason the so-called "unpruning" is such a complete joke to anybody with a brain. They unpruned some abilities but they didn't bring back the actual interactions that made them fit into your gameplay.

    I'm glad that you brought up Cloak and Dagger. That was a great talent in casual play. I personally had a lot of fun running around with Cloak and Dagger when I was just doing quests or w/e even though it wasn't a good choice for competitive play.

    For those who don't know, here's an example of what that build was like:



    Half of the problem with Legion/post-Legion design is that instead of the teleport playstyle being a talent option that was there, they tried to bake in right into the spec with Shadowstrike which ended up being a balancing nightmare, had to be scaled way back, and required concessions in other places (the other problem, of course is Dance uptime which reduced Dance burst, weakened our PvP niche, and required pruning the variety and depth from our CC toolkit).

    Anyway, from a design perspective I think it's just fascinating that the Cloak and Dagger talent was basically their vision for what Subtlety Rogue should be and yet they ended up delivering a far, far worse version of it. It doesn't work with Cheap Shot, has reduced range, etc. They would have been better off leaving it as a talent option best suited for open world content.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-10-31 at 03:12 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    The disconnect / disagreement here is that you insist only a "top player" can counter your opener. No, that's not true. Anybody with even a basic understanding of what to do in PvP should be able to counter it.
    Shoe, (can I call u Shoe?) yes, is that "Cloak and dagger". Jesus, How dare they take that away from me? Yes, before I used this talent to teleport using cheap shot. When that talent was gone I realized that I had a huge laziness to follow the target and apply sap - cheap shot (or just cheap shot). I found it boring. I got hooked on Cloak and Dagger. (Did I already tell you that my main goal in the game is to do what I love?) ... and then in legion (missing the C&D teleport) I tried doing the Shadowstrike > Cheap shot.
    At first (just like you) I was sure it wasn't going to work. The time between Shadowstrike and Cheap Shot is (more or less) 0.5 seconds ... and I knew that any average player would break me in this time window.
    HOWEVER .... to my surprise the vast majority do not react in this 0.5 second and my opener works. I can apply the entire opener as I described in the topic in 10-12 seconds and the target remains stunned most of the time.
    Of course ... I repeat that this occurs in the world PVP and in BGs pugs that (luckily) I am playing against average or bad players in the PVP.
    For me to have fun I don't demand that they are good after all ... nor am I.

    I hope I managed to explain myself better.
    Last edited by Fantazma; 2020-10-31 at 05:04 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    Shoe, (can I call u Shoe?) yes, is that "Cloak and dagger". Jesus, How dare they take that away from me? Yes, before I used this talent to teleport using cheap shot. When that talent was gone I realized that I had a huge laziness to follow the target and apply sap - cheap shot (or just cheap shot). I found it boring. I got hooked on Cloak and Dagger. (Did I already tell you that my main goal in the game is to do what I love?) ... and then in legion (missing the C&D teleport) I tried doing the Shadowstrike > Cheap shot.
    At first (just like you) I was sure it wasn't going to work. The time between Shadowstrike and Cheap Shot is (more or less) 0.5 seconds ... and I knew that any average player would break me in this time window.
    HOWEVER .... to my surprise the vast majority do not react in this 0.5 second and my opener works. I can apply the entire opener as I described in the topic in 10-12 seconds and the target remains stunned most of the time.
    Of course ... I repeat that this occurs in the world PVP and in BGs pugs that (luckily) I am playing against average or bad players in the PVP.
    For me to have fun I don't demand that they are good after all ... nor am I.

    I hope I managed to explain myself better.
    Cloak and Dagger was at its best as a talent for casual play.

    Forcing that on the entire spec has simply neutered the Cloak and Dagger playstyle, which has made it worse in casual play, without making it better in competitive play.

    The same way that forcing Dance as the rotation, rather than Dance as the primary CD which complements the core Rogue flavor, has resulted in a neutered Shadow Dance that is less exciting to use, in addition to the neutering of core rotational concepts for the Rogue class.

    These are concepts (CnD, higher Dance uptime) are best executed only in certain kinds of content. Therefore they are at their best when they are options that you can kit into, NOT the core design of the spec which is forced on all content types.

    Imagine if Dance cooldown manipulation was via some Legendary that is not active in PvP, or some set bonus for gear that can be upgraded across tiers, or any one of this game's varied systems, rather than being a global design for the spec.

    Imagine if Cloak and Dagger teleports are designed in such a way that is more specialized towards World Content, Solo BGs, rather than being reduced to a heavily nerfed form of Shadowstrike that has a more limited range and more limited versatility.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    I am still in doubt if I still need to learn a lot of English to express myself better
    You are doing fine. I also loved that talent (Cloak and Dagger) although I suck at PvP.

  6. #26
    So,

    why would you ignore SnD in the opener?
    Let's just find it out.



    So as we read, Shadowstriking grants 10 seconds of Slice and Dice, or 2 CP if SnD is already active.
    There's a nice saying that goes by "quoting a book is fine, reading it would be better." I feel it applies to talents as well.
    The eventual discussion of entitled statements is neither here nor there. Let's continue.

    In the Pikaboo opener you get 5CP by the Shadow Blades - Cheap Shot - Shadow Strike, which then get spent by a Kidney Shot.
    Were you to overcap your CPs, you would waste valuable resources. You could maybe have enough energy now with the abundance of stats coming from endgame activities, but come Shadowlands you will have to accept your 10% haste and the slowish gameplay it will entail.

    However, to the point.

    So, we examined how the first round of the opener gives you 5cp that gets spent on a KS, followed by a MfD Eviscerate which gets buffed by Prey on the Weak, getting a 10% damage increase, etc.

    The entire Pika opener covers 8 seconds with sloppy play. Drest covers for a great amount of burst, and yeah, Rupture is not applied.

    Why is his rotation better than yours?
    • Nightstalker is a PvE talent. It's not reliable, depends on rng to get its full value. 50% might be a lot, but Subterfuge allows for more things to be done inside the opener, which for a Sub Rogue is super important (and for Garroting as Assa aswell, but I digress)

      Dagger in the Dark requires setup. You want your opener to just work, and yeah, maybe in duels you can stack Dagger as long as necessary, or in 1v1s. If you need to react on the moment, you cannot rely on Dagger

      Lastly, and this links to the reliability of your opener and the crutches it uses, your opener is 12 seconds as opposed to 8.

    So, another couple things to close off. You end your last reply like so:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma
    Finally, I apologize to everyone who took offense at my topic.
    I am still in doubt if I still need to learn a lot of English to express myself better ... or if you are just very spoiled.
    I hope to be the first alternative.
    Good night.
    To this I'd like to answer:
    You need to take it less personally.

    You call the Pika opener as it having "something wrong", when it's your knowledge of the game that is lacking. You lack context and try to apply a burst opener to your DiD DfA Nightstalker opener, which is simply not sustainable. You worded your thread with great amounts of supposition and call those who call your shortcomings out "spoiled".

    It's not them - or us, if you want to pool me with the rest, I'm fine being lumped with the boys - it's you who are spoiled, who got used to never having your ignorant opinion contested, and in turn never having to improve your ignorance.
    Ignorance in itself is good: it can be improved and makes for better humans.

    Hope this thread helps you.
    Good luck.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    So,

    why would you ignore SnD in the opener?
    Let's just find it out.



    So as we read, Shadowstriking grants 10 seconds of Slice and Dice, or 2 CP if SnD is already active.
    There's a nice saying that goes by "quoting a book is fine, reading it would be better." I feel it applies to talents as well.
    The eventual discussion of entitled statements is neither here nor there. Let's continue.

    In the Pikaboo opener you get 5CP by the Shadow Blades - Cheap Shot - Shadow Strike, which then get spent by a Kidney Shot.
    Were you to overcap your CPs, you would waste valuable resources. You could maybe have enough energy now with the abundance of stats coming from endgame activities, but come Shadowlands you will have to accept your 10% haste and the slowish gameplay it will entail.

    However, to the point.

    So, we examined how the first round of the opener gives you 5cp that gets spent on a KS, followed by a MfD Eviscerate which gets buffed by Prey on the Weak, getting a 10% damage increase, etc.

    The entire Pika opener covers 8 seconds with sloppy play. Drest covers for a great amount of burst, and yeah, Rupture is not applied.

    Why is his rotation better than yours?
    • Nightstalker is a PvE talent. It's not reliable, depends on rng to get its full value. 50% might be a lot, but Subterfuge allows for more things to be done inside the opener, which for a Sub Rogue is super important (and for Garroting as Assa aswell, but I digress)

      Dagger in the Dark requires setup. You want your opener to just work, and yeah, maybe in duels you can stack Dagger as long as necessary, or in 1v1s. If you need to react on the moment, you cannot rely on Dagger

      Lastly, and this links to the reliability of your opener and the crutches it uses, your opener is 12 seconds as opposed to 8.

    So, another couple things to close off. You end your last reply like so:


    To this I'd like to answer:
    You need to take it less personally.

    You call the Pika opener as it having "something wrong", when it's your knowledge of the game that is lacking. You lack context and try to apply a burst opener to your DiD DfA Nightstalker opener, which is simply not sustainable. You worded your thread with great amounts of supposition and call those who call your shortcomings out "spoiled".

    It's not them - or us, if you want to pool me with the rest, I'm fine being lumped with the boys - it's you who are spoiled, who got used to never having your ignorant opinion contested, and in turn never having to improve your ignorance.
    Ignorance in itself is good: it can be improved and makes for better humans.

    Hope this thread helps you.
    Good luck.

    Well Put Jackstraw.
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  8. #28
    A few things for the future in shadowlands. Subs pace doesn't change much because even now haste is most of the time avoided. The most hit energy reg takes is the loss of lucid dream, but like most things it was a rng proc. Sub can counter it a bit with different sod usage, but 100 energy + 40 through sod should be well enough for a burst opener without lucid.
    Also in pvp prey was nerfed to 5% a while ago. Nightstalker for sub is just 12% dmg and not 50% like for assa.

    All in all with covs, soulbinds and legies some things will change here and there for sure.
    Dying could endanger your health!

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