Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Hyeonh]

Before there really wasn't much of good and evil but with current blizzard the writers trying too hard to set sides as black and white for bfa.

[Ryzeth]

Hate to break it to people, but there are no 'good guys' in World of Warcraft.

Both sides can be viewed as bad guys.

[Throren]

As much as people claim "Its only Sylvanas
that was evil" ; so many of the rank and file soldiers (mostly forsaken, orcs and trolls) seem happy and excited at the prospect of being able to murder people. You have horde solders cheering and laughing as they raid a defenseless civilian town posing no threat, impaling innocent townsfolk to walls while their children sob over their corpses (Brennedam). How many forsaken conducted unspeakable atrocities and Saw level torture and experiments on people in undercity and enjoyed their work. Hell in a short story we learn the forsaken like using captured humans as living training dummies for soldiers.

Id 'every individual' in the horde evil? No. But the organization itself is due to the actions of so many of its members and the fact it freely condoned those actions

[Jindujun]

You remember the Stonespire tribe, right? No? Maybe you should ask the dwarves of Bael'dun about them.


On Topic: The Horde aren't evil. They definitely aren't good, either. Their military has done some truly terrible acts, but while the acts themselves are evil, the people performing those acts are people put in a situation that I definitely don't envy. While they do have some evil members in their ranks, I don't think they've been any more evil than the people of the Alliance. It's just the evil members in the Horde have wielded more power than those in the Alliance.

I have to ask, The Stonespire Tribe. While the dwarves did wrong on driving them off and killing many of them would certainly be a bad thing i've always been wondering. Some have raised this point as especially atrocious since the dwarves drove them from their sacred ancestral lands but the quest text itself states "My people inhabited the southern Barrens for decades.", how sacred can something be if it's been used for mere decades?

[Niwes]

There was a time in WoW when things got differentiated and Horde felt like the underdogs.

These times are long over. Thx to Blizzards great writing team.

[cuafpr]

looks at warcraft I, II, and a bit of III, loots at Cata, MoP, WoD, parts of legion, BFA.. yes.. yes they are evil and the alliance should have ended them when they could but alas they are needed for the game.

[Accendor]

Hate to break it to people, but there are no 'good guys' in World of Warcraft.

Both sides can be viewed as bad guys.

They really can not after BfA. Like at all. I understand that we all wish this was the case, but it is not any longer.
Right now, horde is simply pure evil and the Alliance can do no wrong.
I do not like it, but it is what it is.

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Evil? lol. They're just an uglier version of the good guys. It's really on the nose by the end of BfA's war campaign.

What? The end of the war campaign showed the exact opposite. Nearly the whole horde stood with Sylvanas till the end. They did not turn against Sylvanas, Sylvanas turned against them.

BfA mage pretty clear who the evil guys are.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

They are. So what? It would be boring if both sides were the same.

[CheckThyself]

when Turalyon inevitably becomes a tyrannical dictator of the holy light and rules the alliance with an iron thumb of golden malevolence, finally we will experience an evil Alliance story.
that, or anduin becomes to descend into the darkness of the void (the other half of being a priest) and we'll get it that way.
point is.....it is only a matter of time before there is an evil Alliance story line.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Good or evil is very suggestive classification.

[Magical Mudcrab]

If they were 100% the bad guys we wouldn't have had an expansion involving the Horde undermining Sylvanas and ending with the Horde ousting Sylvanas and her fanatics. Yes they have committed bad deeds, especially throughout BfA (which made no logical sense from a consistent writing pov)

This is such a silly argument. The Horde did not rally against Sylvanas. In fact, it was made relatively clear that the rebellion required the aid of the Alliance because the rebels could not scrounge up enough support to deal with Sylvanas. Moreover, most of the Horde leaders did not protest when Sylvanas burned Teldrassil, nor when Baine was imprisoned.

The Horde, as written, are OK with committing genocide, as well as kowtowing to dictators. They only change their tune when, and only when, it becomes inconvenient for themselves; none of them are capable of taking principled positions, and are wholly motivated by selfish needs.

[Vargrik]

I think the Horde is a mishmash of conflicting interests/worldviews. To a (WAY) lesser degree, so is the Alliance, specially now with Tyrande mega-pissed (rightfully so).

I like the existence of factions in the game, but I wish they became more fluid, like in the real word, where a particular country may ally itself with a group of others but, years later, they are allied to an entire different group of nations. I can see how this could be a problem for people who are attached to their characters and would be suddenly unable to play with their friends though.

Taurens and Trolls don't deserve to be allies of Goblins and the Forsaken.

[Magical Mudcrab]

It's literally the word parts and the definition indicates the intent on wiping out the entire group.

Genocide does not necessitate killing the entire group.

[Varodoc]

when Turalyon inevitably becomes a tyrannical dictator of the holy light and rules the alliance with an iron thumb of golden malevolence, finally we will experience an evil Alliance story.
that, or anduin becomes to descend into the darkness of the void (the other half of being a priest) and we'll get it that way.
point is.....it is only a matter of time before there is an evil Alliance story line.

No. There will never be an "Evil Alliance" storyline. The Alliance is not an uniformed body like the Horde, rather it is a military alliance of various independent countries. The allied leaders are not forced in any way to listen to Turalyon. So even if Turalyon became "like Garrosh/Sylvanas", i.e. a genocidal psycho, he wouldn't have nearly as much influence in his respective faction like Garrosh/Sylvanas had in the Horde. What's likely to happen is that all allied states would cut ties with Stormwind.

[Aresk]

I have to ask, The Stonespire Tribe. While the dwarves did wrong on driving them off and killing many of them would certainly be a bad thing i've always been wondering. Some have raised this point as especially atrocious since the dwarves drove them from their sacred ancestral lands but the quest text itself states "My people inhabited the southern Barrens for decades.", how sacred can something be if it's been used for mere decades?

I'm less concerned about the sacredness of their land (though it was called an ancestral birthplace, so it probably had significance to them dating back more than a few decades, probably back to the tauren's nomadic time) and more concerned with the fact it was inhabited land and that the dwarves killed the ones who refused to leave it. The dwarves then refused any negotiation to leave it. The clan itself became scattered after that, with only a handful of members allegedly surviving into the Cata era from Classic. The tribe itself is considered lost.

I'm not a Horde-Did-No-Evil player or an Alliance-Is-The-Worst player. I will admit that I do have a bias against dwarves in particular (maybe I spent way too long in AV in Classic?), but even trying to look at it from a neutral perspective, the unprovoked near-eradication of an entire tribe seems pretty severe (possibly the most severe action the Alliance has taken in WoW's history; I won't speak about events that predated classic). Compared to some other acts in game (e.g. Burning of Teldrassil), I wouldn't say that the fate of the Stonespire Tribe was particularly atrocious, but when discussing Alliance atrocities, I feel that it's one that shouldn't be forgotten (and which sadly is, because Alliance players get so little visibility into it).

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No. There will never be an "Evil Alliance" storyline. The Alliance is not an uniformed body like the Horde, rather it is a military alliance of various independent countries. The allied leaders are not forced in any way to listen to Turalyon. So even if Turalyon became "like Garrosh/Sylvanas", i.e. a genocidal psycho, he wouldn't have nearly as much influence in his respective faction like Garrosh/Sylvanas had in the Horde. What's likely to happen is that all allied states would cut ties with Stormwind.

In theory, this is accurate. In practice, I assume the narrative will dictate the other leaders' actions, and they'll be more than happy to go along with Turalyon if that's what the writers decide.

[NorthernDragon]

CORRECT, if you don't want to rp as a bit of a bad guy then don't start a hordie but also there should be an understanding that there are races like the Tauren that have a pretty reasonable history.

The Goblins are well known as greedy little capitalists, the Orcs are well known for war and conquest as a lifestyle, and the forsaken eat the dead people they have killed.

I think it is a good move to design an rpg where you can be the bad guy and maybe that is needed more on the alliance side to deepen the rp experience. For that matter I would like to see something like what swtor has where evil choices made would make your character look darker and more poisened by those choices and some sort of evil or good bonus given when on either end of the spectrum.

Forsaken don't eat people

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Horde are illegal immigrants and evil to boot, kill them all or send them back from where they came.

I mean if we're getting technical most of the Horde with the exception of orcs and Forsaken are native. Alliance is full of Titan creations cursed with flesh with the exception of elves and pandaren (though elves are descended from trolls)

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It's fiction.

So why mention RL morality?

You cannot pick and choose what RL ethics you wish to apply to fiction. Either genocide is bad or it isn't.

[Shedaar]

If I have to I judge particular people, not communities as a whole.

[Varodoc]

Forsaken don't eat people

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I mean if we're getting technical most of the Horde with the exception of orcs and Forsaken are native. Alliance is full of Titan creations cursed with flesh with the exception of elves and pandaren (though elves are descended from trolls)

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So why mention RL morality?

You cannot pick and choose what RL ethics you wish to apply to fiction. Either genocide is bad or it isn't.

Do you not know the novel "War Crimes"? The Burning of Teldrassil, just like the Fall of Theramore, would be considered a horrible war crime.

Warcraft is not Warhammer. Warcraft never commended genocide.

Except the Horde is now a council like the Alliance except there's no monarchy

And? I was talking about the Horde under Garrosh and Sylvanas.

There isn't a monarchy in the Alliance either. The High King is not a monarch, it's a military commander.

[NorthernDragon]

No. There will never be an "Evil Alliance" storyline. The Alliance is not an uniformed body like the Horde, rather it is a military alliance of various independent countries. The allied leaders are not forced in any way to listen to Turalyon. So even if Turalyon became "like Garrosh/Sylvanas", i.e. a genocidal psycho, he wouldn't have nearly as much influence in his respective faction like Garrosh/Sylvanas had in the Horde. What's likely to happen is that all allied states would cut ties with Stormwind.

Except the Horde is now a council like the Alliance except there's no monarchy

[Itisamuh]

I see little to no difference in the faction identity. Both are basically good idiots who often do bad things under the guise of patriotism.