Random vs scripted pve game mechanics

[ClassicPeon]

The problem with this for dungeons for example is that you cant line up defensive cooldowns.

Its not very fun to win a fight based purely on luck or loose a fight based purely on luck.

[Wadrak]

That question makes no sense.

It does. How do you know killing Mythic Nzoth is hard if you never tried it ?

[ymirsson]

It does. How do you know killing Mythic Nzoth is hard if you never tried it ?

When exactly did i say that? You said it was easy, so Blizzard should implement a slew of RNG mechanics to make it more "interesting".
And now i am asking where your Cutting Edge achievement collection is to prove that you have a point.

[Cracked]

Wow, imagine thinking you just invented new boss design. The thing is, whenever we had bosses with these mechanics, it was super dumb to encounter a streak of bad luck. It happens even today with randomly targeting mechanics, where someone either gets repeatedly chosen or becomes a target of multiple mechanics at the same time, which is either very hard or even impossible to deal with. That's why they don't do it as often anymore.

For RNG to be fun inside fights, players must be able to interact with it in a stable way (like jade guardians or moroes adds), or they need to be able to deal with it in a consistent way (like boss randomly changing fixate targets)...

Not "oh well, the boss used the tank mechanic at the same time the 2 adds came and oneshot the tank, better luck next time!". I guess the old saying that everything old is new again really works.

[Wadrak]

Wow, imagine thinking you just invented new boss design. The thing is, whenever we had bosses with these mechanics, it was super dumb to encounter a streak of bad luck. It happens even today with randomly targeting mechanics, where someone either gets repeatedly chosen or becomes a target of multiple mechanics at the same time, which is either very hard or even impossible to deal with. That's why they don't do it as often anymore.

For RNG to be fun inside fights, players must be able to interact with it in a stable way (like jade guardians or moroes adds), or they need to be able to deal with it in a consistent way (like boss randomly changing fixate targets)...

Not "oh well, the boss used the tank mechanic at the same time the 2 adds came and oneshot the tank, better luck next time!". I guess the old saying that everything old is new again really works.

You can make RNG mechanics when there wouldnt be bad luck which would kill you. Its not that hard.

There is multiple levels of RNG mechanics I had in mind.

But lets just start with this.

Coin Pummeler in Motherlode dungeon.

lets just say he uses following abilites now, I dont know exactly:

1 Knockback nova
2 Static charge, lightning attack on the ground
3 Throw bombs
4 Throw coins
5 Knockback nova
6 Static charge, lightning attack on the ground
7 Throw bombs
8 Throw coins

What I had in mind is for example this could happen

1 Throw coins
10 second window no ability happens (no overlap danger)
2 Throw coins (again)
10 second window no ability happens
3 Knockback nova
10 second window no ability happens
4 Static charge, lightning attack on the ground
10 second window no ability happens
5 Knockback nova
10 second window no ability happens
6 Static charge, lightning attack on the ground
10 second window no ability happens
7 Throw bombs
10 second window no ability happens
8 Knockback nova

So there is variety to each fight, no danger of overlapping abilities.

[Basileus]

Hello, Hall of Fame raider here.

Wrath bosses are essentially all easier than any mythic boss in 8.3, save maybe Skitra. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the game has fundamentally changed in design since then and for the better. Randomness would take a lot of the feeling of triumph away from mythic raiders because, as people have said, it would reward your god-pull, not your organization or play.

[ClassicPeon]

SNIP

The problem you arent seeing here is that one of the major things in mythic raiding/high level m+ is proper usage of cooldowns. You literally need them to survive ceritain mechanics. If you dont know exactly when that mechanic is going to come you cant prepare cooldowns for it and thus content would have to be nerfed.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

It doesn't do much, either the RNG is minor enough that it is trivial to handle or it is so major that you're totally fucked if RNG goes against you. I say this as someone who tanked through parts of T4-T6, all of of T7-T19 and part of T20 as a prot paladin. I'm quite familiar with RNG being the deciding factor in whether I lived or died for some specific boss fights, and it wasn't remotely fun (H-Chimaeron remains the most poorly designed fight I've ever done in WoW, followed by Faction Champions).

[Gorsameth]

Pretty sure fights in the past have already used this mechanic where abilities happen some random time after their cooldown finishes.

But a major issue with doing this with raid wide abilities is that it completely screws over certain healers like disc priests or druid who rely on preemptively acting on upcoming damage.
You can't throw rejuvs on much of the raid in preparation for 'big nuke' to happen only to have to boss not cast it for another 20 seconds so that all your hots have already ran out (or you spend 30 seconds spamming rejuv for 100% overhealing because it might happen any moment.

[Cracked]

So there is variety to each fight, no danger of overlapping abilities.

There are such fights from time to time - but they always end up being extremely easy, because you just can't handcraft it to be hard without scripting it out.. Besides, just about half the fights in modern raids have some sort of a gimmick, which completely defines the fight, so randomness doesn't even make sense (for example, xanesh, drestagath, fury of nzoth, skitra, .. and you can find them in any raid)

[DazManianDevil]

We could put Explosive and the new Volcanic/Storming into raids. I'm sure that will have no bad interactions and the community will find reclearing content fun and engaging!
/s
While random sounds fun, just watch people rage on Twin Emps in AQ40 playing Classic. The teleport doesn't have a real timer, only "after this time, it might happen whenever".

[arkanon]

I dont know perhaps this could be another way to make the game more challenging

So just to be clear, you are obviously getting cutting edge and pushing world first every tier? Why else would you want to add more difficulty? Reminds me of TotalBiscuit saying he was quitting wow because it had become to casual and easy, when he hadnt even finished NORMAL.

Why is this a factor? Simple - no one should ever ask for more difficult content unless they are already completing the highest possible difficulty in the game. Why? Because the game is ALREADY offering them harder content - its right infront of them.

A heroic raider cant complain that its too easy and demand they make heroic harder when Mythic is right there waiting for them. A person whos highest key in time is a +10 cannot demand more challenging content, when the content is right there infront of them.

[Wadrak]

So just to be clear, you are obviously getting cutting edge and pushing world first every tier? Why else would you want to add more difficulty? Reminds me of TotalBiscuit saying he was quitting wow because it had become to casual and easy, when he hadnt even finished NORMAL.

Why is this a factor? Simple - no one should ever ask for more difficult content unless they are already completing the highest possible difficulty in the game. Why? Because the game is ALREADY offering them harder content - its right infront of them.

A heroic raider cant complain that its too easy and demand they make heroic harder when Mythic is right there waiting for them. A person whos highest key in time is a +10 cannot demand more challenging content, when the content is right there infront of them.

I dont agree with this point sorry.

First of all it doesnt matter who demands it but what is being suggested.

Second I already posted some achievements where I already cleared all bosses in wotlk on all modes with glories.
If thats not enough for you, sorry but for me it is.
I dont have to do that every expansion.

Third, just because something is challenging like Mythic raiding, doesnt mean it must be fun and the right kind of challenge.

And I never said that WoW is easy, its getting harder, like aoe cap on aoe abilities, new affixes, and other things.

I simply said that I would like if mechanics work in different way, and challenge would be different, perhaps harder who knows.
Because I see some problems with current mechanics.

If you have different opinion fine.

[arkanon]

I dont agree with this point sorry.
.

But, the point is 100% correct - you cant ask for "more challenging content" when you qualify your "ability" to complete challenging content by talking about content from a decade ago that pales in comparison to anything in mythic currently, or for the last 3 expansions.

Thats like saying you did MC in classic so want harder raiding in retail - clear the highest difficulty in current content, and then you will understand why RNG is bad.

[Wadrak]

But, the point is 100% correct - you cant ask for "more challenging content" when you qualify your "ability" to complete challenging content by talking about content from a decade ago that pales in comparison to anything in mythic currently, or for the last 3 expansions.

Thats like saying you did MC in classic so want harder raiding in retail - clear the highest difficulty in current content, and then you will understand why RNG is bad.

No bro you are basically saying that If I dont kill mythic Nzoth that I dont know if I would actually like to progress in Nyalotha ?

Sorry but thats not how it works. I can make informed decision even without playing it.

I dont have to spend 100 dollars for game and sub and 4 months of my time to find out.

[arkanon]

I can make informed decision even without playing it.

No, you cant. Not regarding the difficulty. You can say I don't like those visuals" or "that doesn't look fun" but you cannot talk on difficulty unless you have at least attempted it, and if you have attempted it but failed to defeat it, I think asking for more "challenge" is very hypocritical.

[ohwell]

Randomness doesnt make it more challenging, just more difficult to measure failure.

No one likes failing at an encounter because 'random thing' happened instead of 'other random thing'.

It should be how you react to said things though. I laughed at how bad people hated Faction Champs when it was probably one of the easier encounters if you have good reflexes and reaction time.

[Jastall]

Yeah, no. It's already bad enough when some mechanics have too much RNG in them on Mythic; for example, on Fallen Avatar if your healers got the knockup debuff it was basically an auto-wipe 7 or 8 minutes into a grueling fight. Random mechanics would either be being punishing and thus extremely frustrating and lead to gratuitously dead pulls because of randomness, or be undertuned to account for said randomness and thus less interesting and impactful leaving into question why they even exist.

Besides, the flavor of many raid bosses comes from the mechanics interacting with each other at precise intervals, and beating timers is one of the most common benchmarks of a satisfying progression.

[ymirsson]

No bro you are basically saying that If I dont kill mythic Nzoth that I dont know if I would actually like to progress in Nyalotha ?

Sorry but thats not how it works. I can make informed decision even without playing it.

I dont have to spend 100 dollars for game and sub and 4 months of my time to find out.

Wait, you don't even play and suggest stupid things for your hypothetical enjoyment?

[Wadrak]

Wait, you don't even play and suggest stupid things for your hypothetical enjoyment?

People complaining that BFA was one of the worst expansions ...

Why dont you come up with better ideas then if you are so smart so we can all have fun and enjoy the game ?

Im all ears.