1. #3081
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except again, a Tinker wouldn't toss a bomb, they would press a button and the bomb would be launched from their mech.
    It is your headcanon that the tinkers will have a mech. An engineer pressing a button that would tell their mech to throw a bomb would be no different, in the lore, from a tinker pressing a button that would tell their mech to throw a bomb.

    Your opinion of lore is not facts.
    It's not an opinion. It is a fact that the differences you claim exist of have not been shown in the lore.

    Discussing actual game mechanics is not head canon.
    Which is meaningless in a lore discussion, in this case the difference between engineer and tinker, which, in the lore, has been shown to be none. Just synonyms.

    Feel free to use an engineering item that stuns, the exact same argument applies.
    It doesn't, because the argument itself is about the lore differences, which are none. An action performed by left-clicking on an ability in a spellbook and an action performed by right-clicking on an item in a bag have no difference in the lore when both do the same thing.

    So does lore matter or does it not matter? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. If it's indistinguishable in the lore in your opinion, why are we wasting time talking about this?
    Lore does matter. And we're talking about this because you're trying to avoid talking about the one thing in which none of your arguments apply.

    Except there are no lore concerns. Goblins and Gnomes (and Mechagnomes) use pilotable mechs to fight in and I believe that gameplay should be fully extended to the player. What's the lore concern? Your OPINION that engineering fully satisfies that gameplay desire?
    "Tinker" and "engineer" have not been shown to have any difference in the lore. That is one lore concern. Other races like orcs and lightforged draenei have been shown to use pilotable mechs to fight. That is another lore concern.

    It's not about fitting a narrative, it's about getting more out of less. With the Vulpera you get the second Horde Tinker race that's also using the Goblin skeleton,
    You literally just fudged the lore there. The vulpera are not a tinker race. They're not a technological race. The mag'har orcs are more technologically inclined than the vulpera. And the fact the vulpera uses the goblin skeleton is meaningless, because 3D model skeletons do not define lore.

    and since its a new race it has malleable lore.
    As malleable as any of the present races, including the vanilla races. The vulpera have already been established as a nomadic, scavenging type of race, not technological geniuses, much less to the level of gnomes, goblins and mechagnomes.

    Also it wouldn't be the first time Blizzard just pulled something out of their butt to make a class fit. Look at Zandalari Paladins and Goblin Shaman.
    You're literally admitting that a "fudging of the lore" would be okay to make vulpera tinkers.

    Except it's already happened multiple times.......
    And it's irrelevant if it happened once, twice or however multiple times. The undeniable fact is that HotS is not canon to the Warcraft franchise, so everything in that game is not and cannot be considered canon to the franchise. That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before.

    Actually they co-developed it. Further, anything RELEASED by Blizzard. In other words, they don't have to develop it, just publish it. So if you make a Warcraft game and Blizzard publishes it, then it's canon.
    The whole point about this is: the canonicity of Warcraft 3: Reforged is arguable because there is a third party involved in its production which resulted in numerous lore inconsistencies that exist within the game. That is a point that cannot be denied.
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  2. #3082
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Mekkatorque? i don't know how an unofficial Tinker with unofficial Tinker abilities have anything to do with the conversation.
    I though he was just a Warrior
    He's an inventor who invented a mech. Warriors don't do that.

    Have you considered that if the Engineering items were as powerful as you want them to be, it wouldn't have been a profession? You can't compare them damage-wise but, you can compare them lore-wise.
    I don't want engineering items to be anymore powerful than they are now. I simply want access to the Tinker abilities already present in WoW. That has nothing to do with engineering at all. You're the one who can't seem to recognize that it's two different things.

    Oh? so, suddenly, a Tinker without a mech is a Hunter with Gizmos? That, pretty much, destroys what you have been arguing for 150 pages and confirms what me and lelenia were saying.
    Please read an entire quote before you comment on it please.

    It doesn't matter who gave Mekkatorque the spark reactor. You are having a hard time grasping that Blizzard uses pop-culture references in their game.
    If Blizzard gave Mekkatorque the spark reactor and it's an obvious reference to Iron Man, why are you complaining that I'm pointing it out?

    No one said they couldn't. If they want to, they can make a Tauren a Tinker. What we're asking you is you give lore reasons for Vulpera Tinkers, that overrides other Horde races. And, currently, you don't have any.
    Because I really don't need any. Vulpera as Tinkers is simply the best choice to keep the factions equal Tinker-wise. If that means that someone doesn't get a Dwarf or Draenei Tinker, that's just too bad.

    Of course they would have to change something in lore to explain their sudden expertise in technology. And saying everybody would love it is, again, your egocentrism talking.
    Yeah, it would require a two sentence explanation. Relax, everything will be just fine.

    You missed the whole point of my argument. I wasn't saying no mechs. As you put it yourself, "mechs and claw-packs". You want to dump the claw pack to have a permanent mech. That's what i'm against.
    Okay.....

    Nothing is impossible for Blizzard. What i was saying is that they don't, usually, follow your wishlist when creating a new class but, their own established lore. So, when you say a medic mech, it is possible, but it isn't coming from Blizzard but, from you.
    If the Tinker is mech based, then it stands to reason that the healing spec would also be mech-based. Especially if you're dealing with base abilities that are bomb/missile based.

    That are launched from a mech? i guess you missed the part where mech-less Tinkers use explosives, devices and robots.
    WC3 and HotS Tinkers still launch and deploy devices via a mech, even outside of Robo-Goblin form.


    Once again, you're making the assumption that main races' classes extend to their allied races, even though i showed you it was wrong in several cases. Currently, Dark Irons are not listed as Tinkers, unlike Dwarves. Could they be? yes. But, it doesn't, automatically, makes them one because the Dwarves are.
    Dark Iron Dwarves are more technologically inclined than standard dwarves. It would make little logical sense for mainline Dwarves to be Tinkers and not Dark Irons.

    Your stupid-ass logic about this chain reaction does not make sense, in the slightest. Humans are not technologically-inclined because of Forsaken, and Worgen are not technologically-inclined because of Humans. You can see how Human Paladinism didn't extend to Forsaken, Worgen and Kul tirans; Worgen and Kul Tiran Druidism didn't extend to Stormwind Humans and Forsaken; and Kul Tiran Shamanism didn't extend to Stormwind Humans, Worgens or Forsaken. Heck, even Demon Hunters elven-exclusivity didn't extend to the Night elf and Blood elf allied races - the Nightborne and Void elves. So, your logic is flawed from the beginning.
    As a matter of fact, your Vulpera argument is, exactly, what would cause such a chain reaction because if a nomadic tribe of furry primitives can be Tinkers, then so do Tauren and Worgen.
    Yeah, we're not talking about any of those classes, we're talking about Tinkers.

    Also the Vulpera wouldn't cause a chain reaction. It would stop with them since it would 2 for 2 on both factions, and Vulpera are the Goblin allied race.

    If Blizzard is highly influenced by other games then, a war-based race having a technology class is on the table, as well. You just refuted your own argument.
    I'm sure you believe that....

    Lore-based? all i see is a Gnome Warrior in that picture. wouldn't you say so, since he is an unofficial Tinker with unofficial Tinker abilities?
    You can't use Mekkatorque, one moment, as a counter measure argument, saying his abilities don't count, and the other moment as a proof of Tinkers using permanent mechs.
    That just shows how manipulative you are.


    That's lore based as well.

    Posting a picture of an NPC in a permanent mech is like posting Illidan in a permanent Metamorphosis state:
    Except Demon Hunters never had permanent Meta form in WC3 or WoW. Tinkers did have permanent mech form in WC3 and the various NPCs we're seeing inside mechs also are in permanent mech forms.

    If you're arguing for a permanent mech, it's gotta have a downside. Otherwise, the claw pack and the standard form are rendered, completely, useless. It's gotta have its disadvantages, not just advantages.
    Why would it need to? Just make it like Druids where they have a neutral caster form with its own set of base abilities. In the case of a Tinker, they can have a "pilot mode" where they're outside of the mech and have device-based abilities like a laser gun, a personal teleportation device, a personal shield, etc.

    In addition, the pilot form wouldn't be useless. Let's say for example you're about to die while inside your mech? Well, you can use an Eject ability that blows up your mech for AoE damage and projects you 20-30 ft forward. The upside is that you survived and escaped. The downside is that you can't re-summon your mech for a set amount of time, so now you need to rely on your pilot abilities with your health at critical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is your headcanon that the tinkers will have a mech. An engineer pressing a button that would tell their mech to throw a bomb would be no different, in the lore, from a tinker pressing a button that would tell their mech to throw a bomb.
    Sorry, I'm not interesting in debating your personal opinion on WoW lore.

    And it's irrelevant if it happened once, twice or however multiple times. The undeniable fact is that HotS is not canon to the Warcraft franchise, so everything in that game is not and cannot be considered canon to the franchise. That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before.
    You do know that if something was pulled from a non-canon source and made canon, that completely obliterates your argument here right? The fact that this has happened multiple times ends this conversation.

    The whole point about this is: the canonicity of Warcraft 3: Reforged is arguable because there is a third party involved in its production which resulted in numerous lore inconsistencies that exist within the game. That is a point that cannot be denied.
    The whole point about this is that your personal opinion about WC3:R doesn't gel with Blizzard's statement about what they consider canon. Also there are lore inconsistencies in all of Blizzard's games, including WoW. Which btw just shows how absolutely asinine it is to slavishly argue about lore as if it's some sort of religious text. Blizzard will wipe its butt with the lore if and when it suits them, so who cares? What matters is what gameplay we're currently missing from the class lineup, and what can future class concepts offer players that they can't currently experience in the game. That's what people care about, not nonsensical head canon and semantic games.

  3. #3083
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, brand new race. Blizzard can just give them technological skill. Like I said earlier, Junker tech and look would fit their race just fine;

    So in order to save time and resources that would be spent using in game assets for races like maghar orcs they should...spend time and resources to make it fit a race that has yet to figure out a potato clock....

    Let’s also keep in mind you saying they can just make junker tech for them also means the other races can be tinkers because they can just use the tech they have

    Yeah this just goes back to the same baseless argument about size again like it has for the last 30 pages

    Because instead of going to the tech created by maghar in WoD and using that you want a complete revamp
    “Well they don’t have lore”
    They have enough to show they aren’t technologically advanced
    “Blizz can make it work”
    They don’t have to make new lore for maghar
    So you are left with mech scaling
    The fact they already scale it for mounts means it’s a non issue

  4. #3084
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    So in order to save time and resources that would be spent using in game assets for races like maghar orcs they should...spend time and resources to make it fit a race that has yet to figure out a potato clock....

    Let’s also keep in mind you saying they can just make junker tech for them also means the other races can be tinkers because they can just use the tech they have

    Yeah this just goes back to the same baseless argument about size again like it has for the last 30 pages

    Because instead of going to the tech created by maghar in WoD and using that you want a complete revamp
    “Well they don’t have lore”
    They have enough to show they aren’t technologically advanced
    “Blizz can make it work”
    They don’t have to make new lore for maghar
    So you are left with mech scaling
    The fact they already scale it for mounts means it’s a non issue
    I've already tried this argument with him. He will now deflect with a strawman about engineers only being small races because they're not strong while disregarding goblin and gnome warriors. He needs to just admit he is biased towards smaller races because there is literally no other logical reason to restrict the Tinker class to the small races.

  5. #3085
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've already tried this argument with him. He will now deflect with a strawman about engineers only being small races because they're not strong while disregarding goblin and gnome warriors. He needs to just admit he is biased towards smaller races because there is literally no other logical reason to restrict the Tinker class to the small races.
    Oh I know
    The thread has devolved and there’s no saving it so might as well have fun with the midget fetish

    People try to make arguments with him using lore and mechanics but in reality they can use the basic idea that I pointed out in my post

  6. #3086
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Oh I know
    The thread has devolved and there’s no saving it so might as well have fun with the midget fetish

    People try to make arguments with him using lore and mechanics but in reality they can use the basic idea that I pointed out in my post
    He only cares about lore when it fits his narrative. Otherwise, he disregards it.

  7. #3087
    So in game we got archer,shaman,cleric(healer),dagger wielder,warrior,necromancer(resembling dk),magic wielder.
    I could see in the future adding these as new classes.

    1.Gunslinger. Leather class wields dual pistols or perhaps a shotgun.Has high mobility.
    2.Tinker.Mail class provides the party/raid with various buffs while at the same time can debuff the targets with various debuffs.Think of it like an old battery paladin from TBC or a Necromancer curses spec from Diablo.
    3.Dragontamer. Cloth/Leather class which can tame various dragons found in WoW.Has abilities like fire breath/bombardment of fire meteors and such.As a last talent the class can synergise with its current dragon and morph giving the class whole new abilities like tail swipe,fire barrage(like diablo ability in D2),a flight in combat for 5 seconds after which you cause a devastate crash on your target. Think of this class as a Demon Hunter 2.0.

    Really posibilities are endless all you need is good developers and class designers.

  8. #3088
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    So in order to save time and resources that would be spent using in game assets for races like maghar orcs they should...spend time and resources to make it fit a race that has yet to figure out a potato clock....
    There is nothing in the current Mag'har Orcs that show any propensity towards tech. In addition, if we go with the notion that smaller races would rely on technology to even the playing field physically with larger, stronger races, Mag'har Orcs kind of go against that completely. Also I would argue that Vulpera's knowledge in Alchemy and their adaptive, intelligent nature gives them a natural opening towards technology.

    Let’s also keep in mind you saying they can just make junker tech for them also means the other races can be tinkers because they can just use the tech they have
    Depends on the race. Again, Vulpera are brand new, so their "lore" is malleable.

    Yeah this just goes back to the same baseless argument about size again like it has for the last 30 pages
    But size is still and always be a concern. Again, it might not bother you that an Orc or a Draenei are miniaturized inside a mech about the size of a standard Orc or Draenei, but others (and Blizzard) might be.

    Because instead of going to the tech created by maghar in WoD and using that you want a complete revamp
    “Well they don’t have lore”
    They have enough to show they aren’t technologically advanced
    “Blizz can make it work”
    They don’t have to make new lore for maghar
    So you are left with mech scaling
    The fact they already scale it for mounts means it’s a non issue
    The Mag'har didn't create any tech. The Goblins created the tech and the Orcs built it. I'm sure you'll find some Orc siege masters or whatever, but the bottom line is that Goblins were the brains, Orcs were the brawn. This is why after the Goblins left the Mag'har reverted back to being primitives.

    In the end, Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races simply make the most sense for the Tinker on multiple levels. Having an Orc piloting a mech borders on silliness and begins to unravel the texture of the game itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhelyo View Post
    So in game we got archer,shaman,cleric(healer),dagger wielder,warrior,necromancer(resembling dk),magic wielder.
    I could see in the future adding these as new classes.

    1.Gunslinger. Leather class wields dual pistols or perhaps a shotgun.Has high mobility.
    2.Tinker.Mail class provides the party/raid with various buffs while at the same time can debuff the targets with various debuffs.Think of it like an old battery paladin from TBC or a Necromancer curses spec from Diablo.
    3.Dragontamer. Cloth/Leather class which can tame various dragons found in WoW.Has abilities like fire breath/bombardment of fire meteors and such.As a last talent the class can synergise with its current dragon and morph giving the class whole new abilities like tail swipe,fire barrage(like diablo ability in D2),a flight in combat for 5 seconds after which you cause a devastate crash on your target. Think of this class as a Demon Hunter 2.0.

    Really posibilities are endless all you need is good developers and class designers.
    Interesting ideas. I would avoid another leather class though. I think another mail class would help quite a bit on multiple levels.

  9. #3089
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    I don't know... i have this feeling it would be more like a Metamorphosis. call it a hunch
    That's probably because you're basing your concepts on War3 stats instead of adapting it as a WoW class.

    Bearform in WC3 didn't boost armor, WoW Bearform has highest armor value of all classes. Think hard about this.


    If you are talking about the ability mechanics, Metamorphosis is a limited duration ability in all 3 games it appears in (WC3, HOTS, WoW). Robo Goblin is a Permanent form with no duration no cooldown in both WC3 and HOTS. Blizzard could do anything they want translating that into WoW.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-16 at 08:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  10. #3090
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    Tinker, much to the anger of everyone who wants their self insert fanfic character fully realized in game.
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  11. #3091
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I actually have no problem with the "academy" idea, though I think I more likely scenario would be similar to a Druid where you start in caster mode until you learn your first form, which would be around level 5 or so. That could easily be implemented as your trainer shows up (or some holographic image of Gazlowe or Mekkatorque) and informs you that its time to construct your mech. Conversely, your first 5 levels could be you gathering the necessary materials to construct your first mech (lvl 5) which is rather crude, and then when you reach level 10 you construct your actual mech.

    Heck, I'd be down for them to parody the first Iron Man film. Like you're a famous Gnome or Goblin inventor and then you get kidnapped by troggs or trolls, and you escape them by building your first mech.
    I'm not sure how the Druid form unlocks work with the leveling scheme, but I do think that this could be fun. I'm not sure how well it would go over with the player base mind you. The Goblin starting area is notoriously disliked. That may have something to do with length admitedly, but I think that tone is also a pretty big issue.

    With that said, hot shot pilot doesn't really fit the Tinker concept. The Tinker is an inventor first a foremost. He's like Tony Stark, not Maverick from Top Gun.
    Except that isn't true. I mean, I get that that is your vision of the class, but it's not some hard set rule that a Tinker class needs to be an inventor first and foremost. There are a myriad of routes that Blizzard could take when it comes to the narrative they present.

    Again, invention is kind of the core aspect of the Tinker concept. They're inventors, first and foremost.
    If we look at Monks though, the assumption could have been that they are brewers first and foremost. They aren't. Blizzard took a piece and wrapped the Monk class around it. Tinkers could be presented in the same way.

    Yeah I disagree with that assessment. Just because the hero of the game (you) can do it, doesn't mean that everyone can do it. In other words, just because you're a Tauren priest engaged in engineering doesn't mean the entire Tauren race is involved in Goblin/Gnome engineering, or even that the entire Tauren race could become involved in Goblin/Gnome engineering.
    I mean... No. The point is that the entire Tauren race is capable of learning Engineering. Saying that they can make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs but can't make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs doesn't make a ton of sense.

    There's also a difference of purpose. Why are you building bombs, weapons, guns, etc. in engineering? Are you building those weapons for personal use, or are you building those devices to sell to others? A Tinker doesn't sell their devices. Whatever a Tinker builds is for personal use. A warrior dabbling in engineering is building items and knick-knacks to primarily sell them other players. You could also argue that does devices are sellable because they're more simple to use than a Tinker's devices. This is head canon I know, but it does make sense when you think about it.
    Like you said, hat's your headcanon though. Saying that a Tinker doesn't sell their stuff is made up. Are you really saying that Blackfuse never sold anything to the highest bidder?

    Yeah, but here's the thing; Classes themselves tend to be rather narrow, and technology is an extremely broad concept. I mean just consider a technology class in WoW and could have 5-10 class ideas that don't override each other. However, if you REALLY look at the WoW expansion classes, they aren't very broad at all. They actually stick rather close to their WC3 roots. The Death Knight is essentially an armored horseman with a broad sword just like he was in WC3. The Monk class is pretty much the Pandaren Brewmaster to the point where all other Monk types were ignored. Demon Hunters are essentially the half-demon elves that Illidan was, despite people saying that human and orc DHs make sense, etc.
    Ehhhh, base classes are broad enough to fit multiple archetypes. A Warrior can be a frothing Barbarian, and blademaster, an honourable samurai, or an armored juggernaut. A Mage can be a battle mage that runs in the thick of combat, a tactician that owns the battlefield, a master of time and space. Base classes tend to be broad enough to incorporate multiple archetypes. Things tend to get more specific with hero classes. If we have a Tinker as a base class, I would be very surprised if it didn't hold true that more than a single archetype wasn't rolled into it.

    When we look at the Tinker from WC3 what do we see? We see a Goblin using a large mechanical device to fight with. Later that machine can turn into a mech that the Goblin can drive around in, and he can switch in and out of that form at will. When you consider that, and the various mechs we see Goblins and Gnomes using in WoW today, it looks pretty clear where this is heading.
    It's not a 1 to 1 thing though. Death Knights don't fight from horseback. Not every Monk spec deals with the brewing of beer. Demon Hunters don't run around in demon form all the time. Blizzard takes bits and pieces and uses them to make their classes. You could be entirely right and Blizzard might think "Tinker class equals using a Mech! That's their whole schtick!" But I don't think it's as written in stone as you seem to.There;s a lot of really cool Tinkery stuff in the game that happens outside of a mech too, and I for one would love to see that in a playable class.

    Again, I don't find the inclusion of Vulpera to be a huge lore-breaking situation. If Blizzard incorporates them as a Tinker race option, and give them two sentences worth of lore justifying it, I could see most players just shrugging their shoulders and not caring at all.
    It kinda feels like you have this set narrative in your head for what the Tinker class needs to be, and you manipulate everything around to fit that narrative. Because when it comes to the class, everything is super specific and needs to match up exactly with stuff from other source materials. But when it comes to races, you're more than happy to crack open the established lore to remove a race that clearly makes sense and create new lore to shoehorn in a race that doesn't.

    Would players just shrug their shoulders? No idea. But I do think that Alliance players wouldn't be too happy to see two of the least played races have access to a shiny new class, whereas the Horde side gets access to it on one of their most popular races.

    Well that's the thing; If you limit this to Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races, it won't be rampant, it'd just be something that those quirky races do. You're a small race with a lot of brains but not a lot of strength, so you're going to build a mech to compensate.
    That's a weird argument to make though. It's essentially Blizzard making a new class that they don't think would be popular enough to have widespread adoption. If that's their view, I can't imagine they would bother making it.

    I mean, in all seriousness would a Goblin stand toe-to-toe with a Tauren and beat them in a physical contest? Never. However a Goblin in a mech;
    This is true of a lot races though. Put a Human or a Dwarf in the same situation and I'd say exactly the same thing.

  12. #3092
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I'm not sure how the Druid form unlocks work with the leveling scheme, but I do think that this could be fun. I'm not sure how well it would go over with the player base mind you. The Goblin starting area is notoriously disliked. That may have something to do with length admitedly, but I think that tone is also a pretty big issue.
    Yeah, Druids get their forms over the course of leveling. They start out in caster form, just being able to do wrath. At some point they pick up Cat form, and later they pick up Bear and Moonkin form. I think that could work with a Tinker as well, with them starting in Pilot mode and building their mech mid-way through their starter zone.

    Also Goblins can just go through Exlie's Reach instead of doing the old Cataclysm quest line. Much better experience.

    Except that isn't true. I mean, I get that that is your vision of the class, but it's not some hard set rule that a Tinker class needs to be an inventor first and foremost. There are a myriad of routes that Blizzard could take when it comes to the narrative they present.
    Well that's pretty much what a Tinker is.

    WC3 Lore:
    Goblins are known for their mechanical expertise and clever, though sometimes peculiar, inventions, and the Tinker is certainly no exception. With his Claw-Pack/Hammer-Tank combo, the Tinker's ingenuity is undeniable. Though his parts may sometimes fail and the occasional explosion does occur, the spirit and enthusiasm of this Hero are never diminished. There truly is more to the Goblin Tinker than meets the eye!
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

    If we look at Monks though, the assumption could have been that they are brewers first and foremost. They aren't. Blizzard took a piece and wrapped the Monk class around it. Tinkers could be presented in the same way.
    Well no, the Brewmaster was doing martial arts from the start;

    WC3 Lore:
    Hailing from the secretive Pandaren Empire, the mighty brewmasters travel the world in search of exotic ales and the finest brewed spirits. These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages for any brave enough to imbibe them. However, if attacked, the laughing brewmasters bring all of their pandaren agility and ferocity to bear! They are peerless warriors and world class drinkers all in one!
    And;

    A warrior Hero, exceptional at absorbing damage and melee combat. The Brewmasters of Pandaria have emerged from the bamboo forests of their ancestors to bring their unique fighting style (and robust ales) to the highest bidder. Attacks land units.
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

    Brewmasters were always shown to be brewers and master martial artists. It's the "Drunken Master" trope popular in a variety of Kung fu movies.

    I mean... No. The point is that the entire Tauren race is capable of learning Engineering. Saying that they can make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs but can't make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs doesn't make a ton of sense.
    Where do you see Tauren making mechs or gizmos in general?

    Like you said, hat's your headcanon though. Saying that a Tinker doesn't sell their stuff is made up. Are you really saying that Blackfuse never sold anything to the highest bidder?
    No, he was a mercenary who sold his services, not his devices. It wasn't like Blackfuse sold the Iron Juggernaut to Garrosh and just left. Garrosh built him an entire siege works where he could design and build weaponry for the True Horde. It's like comparing someone who makes wind up toys on eBay with Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

    Ehhhh, base classes are broad enough to fit multiple archetypes. A Warrior can be a frothing Barbarian, and blademaster, an honourable samurai, or an armored juggernaut. A Mage can be a battle mage that runs in the thick of combat, a tactician that owns the battlefield, a master of time and space. Base classes tend to be broad enough to incorporate multiple archetypes. Things tend to get more specific with hero classes. If we have a Tinker as a base class, I would be very surprised if it didn't hold true that more than a single archetype wasn't rolled into it.
    Monks were a base class, and they were pretty much a single archetype; Completely based on Pandaren martial arts, had the entire list of WC3 abilities, and having brewing and brews all over the class.

    It's not a 1 to 1 thing though. Death Knights don't fight from horseback. Not every Monk spec deals with the brewing of beer. Demon Hunters don't run around in demon form all the time. Blizzard takes bits and pieces and uses them to make their classes. You could be entirely right and Blizzard might think "Tinker class equals using a Mech! That's their whole schtick!" But I don't think it's as written in stone as you seem to.There;s a lot of really cool Tinkery stuff in the game that happens outside of a mech too, and I for one would love to see that in a playable class.
    DKs fighting from Horseback at all times would be a balancing issue, and cause armor problems.

    In MoP EVERY Monk spec had the ability to brew drinks.

    Demon Hunters never had a permanent Metamorphosis spell in WC3.

    Considering that the Tinker entering and existing mech mode was exactly like how Druids changed forms in WC3, it wouldn't be surprising to see Blizzard use a similar mechanic for entering and exiting mech piloting.

    It kinda feels like you have this set narrative in your head for what the Tinker class needs to be, and you manipulate everything around to fit that narrative. Because when it comes to the class, everything is super specific and needs to match up exactly with stuff from other source materials. But when it comes to races, you're more than happy to crack open the established lore to remove a race that clearly makes sense and create new lore to shoehorn in a race that doesn't.

    Would players just shrug their shoulders? No idea. But I do think that Alliance players wouldn't be too happy to see two of the least played races have access to a shiny new class, whereas the Horde side gets access to it on one of their most popular races.
    Well to be fair to Gnome players, they tend to have the better looking mechs.

    That's a weird argument to make though. It's essentially Blizzard making a new class that they don't think would be popular enough to have widespread adoption. If that's their view, I can't imagine they would bother making it.
    They would bother making it for the simple reason that there is an audience who plays technology-based classes in sword and sorcery RPGs. This is why pretty much every MMO on the market today has a tech-based class of some sort. Blizzard no doubt recognizes this, but at the same time don't want a glut of mechs overriding the overall theme of WoW which is sword and sorcery. Limiting it to small races means that it becomes a quirky thing that only certain races do instead of this massive Azerothian industrial revolution that would turn off a large segment of players. Further, players who have played WoW for any length of time recognize that Goblins and Gnomes ride around in mechs and do tech stuff anyway.

    Doing it this way gets that audience of players wanting a technology class, and it preserves what WoW is at its core.

    This is true of a lot races though. Put a Human or a Dwarf in the same situation and I'd say exactly the same thing.
    I disagree, Varian and Muradin could wreck a tauren.

    Any Goblin or Gnome warriors in comparison?

    Gazlowe or Mekkatorque could stand a chance..........

    In their mechs.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-16 at 08:34 PM.

  13. #3093
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    He's an inventor who invented a mech. Warriors don't do that.
    My warrior built a mech. Several, in fact.

    Sorry, I'm not interesting in debating your personal opinion on WoW lore.
    You're basically admitting that you cannot argue lore, which gives the impression you have no leg to stand on when the discussion is about lore. Which says a lot about your personal concept for a tech class.

    And again: what I wrote is not an opinion. It's a fact. You have not demonstrated any difference between tinker and engineer that doesn't heavily and often entirely depend on game mechanics, making it meaningless in the lore.

    You do know that if something was pulled from a non-canon source and made canon, that completely obliterates your argument here right? The fact that this has happened multiple times ends this conversation.
    No, it does not. Re-read what I wrote: "That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before."

    [quote]The whole point about this is that your personal opinion about WC3:R doesn't gel with Blizzard's statement about what they consider canon.

    Also there are lore inconsistencies in all of Blizzard's games, including WoW.
    Such as? Also, what happens when such inconsistencies are discovered? Blizzard either retcons everything to fit, or changes things again. Are you going to argue that ogre buildings in Azeroth prior to the draenei arriving were actual draenei structures?

    Blizzard, as far as I know, has not said a single word regarding WC3:Reforged's lore inconsistencies. And considering the massive backlash they got because of that game... my take is that the least they're reminded that game exists, the better for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The One Percent View Post
    Tinker, much to the anger of everyone who wants their self insert fanfic character fully realized in game.
    But you're okay with tinker fans getting their "self insert fanfic character" fully realized in the game?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  14. #3094
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    My warrior built a mech. Several, in fact.
    And that never happened in lore. It's simply something you did with your character in your spare time.


    You're basically admitting that you cannot argue lore, which gives the impression you have no leg to stand on when the discussion is about lore. Which says a lot about your personal concept for a tech class.
    We're not arguing lore, we're arguing your opinion on what the lore is. Sorry, I have no interest in that discussion.

    No, it does not. Re-read what I wrote: "That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before."
    Again, yes it does. If Blizzard willingly pulls content from non-canon sources and makes them canon, and has stated that they will continue to do that in the future, what is and is not canon is completely meaningless. In other words ANYTHING that is non-canon now has the potential to become canon in the future, so that renders the entire discussion meaningless.


    Such as? Also, what happens when such inconsistencies are discovered? Blizzard either retcons everything to fit, or changes things again. Are you going to argue that ogre buildings in Azeroth prior to the draenei arriving were actual draenei structures?
    The Draenei race itself being a rather huge example, since it was completely different than their backstory in WC3. Illidan getting killed by Arthas in their duel in TFT, yet coming back in TBC for "reasons" only to get killed again by adventurers, but comes back AGAIN via a retcon where Maiev captured him (which didn't happen in TBC) for Legion. Warlocks losing metamorphosis after the entire Black Harvest storyline made zero sense and has never been resolved. What's currently happening in Shadowlands is starting to retcon how the Lich King was created in the first place.

    So yeah about lore..... who cares?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-16 at 09:08 PM.

  15. #3095
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There is nothing in the current Mag'har Orcs that show any propensity towards tech. In addition, if we go with the notion that smaller races would rely on technology to even the playing field physically with larger, stronger races, Mag'har Orcs kind of go against that completely. Also I would argue that Vulpera's knowledge in Alchemy and their adaptive, intelligent nature gives them a natural opening towards technology.



    Depends on the race. Again, Vulpera are brand new, so their "lore" is malleable.



    But size is still and always be a concern. Again, it might not bother you that an Orc or a Draenei are miniaturized inside a mech about the size of a standard Orc or Draenei, but others (and Blizzard) might be.



    The Mag'har didn't create any tech. The Goblins created the tech and the Orcs built it. I'm sure you'll find some Orc siege masters or whatever, but the bottom line is that Goblins were the brains, Orcs were the brawn. This is why after the Goblins left the Mag'har reverted back to being primitives.

    In the end, Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races simply make the most sense for the Tinker on multiple levels. Having an Orc piloting a mech borders on silliness and begins to unravel the texture of the game itself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Interesting ideas. I would avoid another leather class though. I think another mail class would help quite a bit on multiple levels.
    Blizzard doesn’t care because they already do it in a mount which is more permanent than a CD

    Vulpera do have lore

    Maghar used tech in WoD...unless Garrosh had a hidden army of Goblins but I don’t recall seeing any in the factories we attacked or the train we attacked

    So the orcs have more established tech than the midget furries and the lore backs them up

    So for minimum effort blizz could make them a tinker and it’s more believable than the cart foxes but you think “the size will be a problem for blizzard and others” when we already have blizzard not caring about the size or the player’s opinions.

    Just admit you don’t want any race higher than your knee to be able to make tech

  16. #3096
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Blizzard doesn’t care because they already do it in a mount which is more permanent than a CD
    The mech form would be permanent, not a CD, especially in the case of a tank spec. The only way it would make sense as a CD would be if the claw pack is implemented.

    Which in turn would limit it to smaller races.
    Vulpera do have lore
    And it’s lore based on being stifled and oppressed. Their entrance into the horde showed how adaptable and resourceful they are.


    Maghar used tech in WoD...unless Garrosh had a hidden army of Goblins but I don’t recall seeing any in the factories we attacked or the train we attacked
    You didn’t see ANY Goblins in WoD working for the Blackfuse company? Did you ever play through mythic HFC? There were loads of Goblins in the starting section before the Iron Reaver.

    So the orcs have more established tech than the midget furries and the lore backs them up
    The only thing the lore showed was that the mag’har were too dumb to expand the Goblin tech left behind. Instead of riding in tanks or mechs, they went back to riding wolves and using swords.

    So for minimum effort blizz could make them a tinker and it’s more believable than the cart foxes but you think “the size will be a problem for blizzard and others” when we already have blizzard not caring about the size or the player’s opinions.

    Just admit you don’t want any race higher than your knee to be able to make tech
    I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

  17. #3097
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The mech form would be permanent, not a CD, especially in the case of a tank spec. The only way it would make sense as a CD would be if the claw pack is implemented.

    Which in turn would limit it to smaller races.


    And it’s lore based on being stifled and oppressed. Their entrance into the horde showed how adaptable and resourceful they are.




    You didn’t see ANY Goblins in WoD working for the Blackfuse company? Did you ever play through mythic HFC? There were loads of Goblins in the starting section before the Iron Reaver.



    The only thing the lore showed was that the mag’har were too dumb to expand the Goblin tech left behind. Instead of riding in tanks or mechs, they went back to riding wolves and using swords.



    I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.
    Eh using this thread as a sample size I’d say no

  18. #3098
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.
    Moon Guard sure would lol

    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  19. #3099
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But you're okay with tinker fans getting their "self insert fanfic character" fully realized in the game?
    It doesn't bother me on the account of tinkers filling a few roles that other classes that have been suggested don't.

    -No class fantasy overlap with other existing classes. Necromancers for example overlap heavily with mage, warlock and death knight. Dark rangers overlap with hunters who use shadow magics. While there isn't a problem with some "mash-up" style classes, it's more interesting to have something completely new.

    -Hasn't missed the boat for a sensible time to release with content related to them. Technology has a big presence in warcraft compared to many other fantasy settings, so there is always a good moment to release a tech based class. Necromancer boat sailed with WotLK and possibly SL, dark ranger with BFA, dragonsworn with a dragon isle expansion (which in itself would have released after cata if it were going to release, so doubtful we will have an expansion based on that area).

    -Segue from dragonsworn, tinkers have actual heavy presence in the lore compared to the other popular suggestions as opposed to something like dragonsworn which only show up in the non canon tabbletop RPG.

    -Tinkers would be a good candidate to FINALLY get another mail class in the game (although dark rangers would fit this as well). Another good gameplay reason would be tinkers easily having a tank, dps and healing spec, which is always good for a class since it increases content viability.

    Personally, the only class that comes close to making as much sense to add next as tinker is necromancer or to just not add any new classes at all and focus on adding specs to existing classes to improve versatility. Maybe a necromancer spec for dks that focuses on ranged casting and summoning many undead minions like demonology as opposed to the one or two minions that unholy uses. Honestly, though, I could care less what they add next as long as it's fun to play in gameplay and isnt another leather or plate class.

    Also, I honestly doubt many peoples' self inserts would be "green manlet in a ghettorigged mech" as opposed to "beautiful elf who can turn into a dragon".
    Last edited by The One Percent; 2021-01-16 at 10:42 PM.
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  20. #3100
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Heck, I'd be down for them to parody the first Iron Man film. Like you're a famous Gnome or Goblin inventor and then you get kidnapped by troggs or trolls, and you escape them by building your first mech.

    With that said, hot shot pilot doesn't really fit the Tinker concept. The Tinker is an inventor first a foremost. He's like Tony Stark, not Maverick from Top Gun.

    There's also a difference of purpose. Why are you building bombs, weapons, guns, etc. in engineering? Are you building those weapons for personal use, or are you building those devices to sell to others? A Tinker doesn't sell their devices. Whatever a Tinker builds is for personal use. A warrior dabbling in engineering is building items and knick-knacks to primarily sell them other players. You could also argue that does devices are sellable because they're more simple to use than a Tinker's devices. This is head canon I know, but it does make sense when you think about it.

    Well that's the thing; If you limit this to Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races, it won't be rampant, it'd just be something that those quirky races do. You're a small race with a lot of brains but not a lot of strength, so you're going to build a mech to compensate.

    I mean, in all seriousness would a Goblin stand toe-to-toe with a Tauren and beat them in a physical contest? Never. However a Goblin in a mech;



    Has a fighting chance.
    Dude. You have a bad case of Iron Man obsession.

    Every profession can sell their stuff. You, hardly, have a case. in lore it is stated that:
    "Successful engineers use their inventions to solve problems and make life easier, faster, and better for themselves and their companions." not to make a profit.

    You'd be surprised but, Goblins are stronger than they look:
    "Despite their small size goblin bruisers are very strong, employing the use of nets and high powered rifles."
    "It was also said by Broxigar in The War of the Ancients that goblins are much stronger than their size would indicate."

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    He's an inventor who invented a mech. Warriors don't do that.



    I don't want engineering items to be anymore powerful than they are now. I simply want access to the Tinker abilities already present in WoW. That has nothing to do with engineering at all. You're the one who can't seem to recognize that it's two different things.



    Please read an entire quote before you comment on it please.



    If Blizzard gave Mekkatorque the spark reactor and it's an obvious reference to Iron Man, why are you complaining that I'm pointing it out?



    Because I really don't need any. Vulpera as Tinkers is simply the best choice to keep the factions equal Tinker-wise. If that means that someone doesn't get a Dwarf or Draenei Tinker, that's just too bad.



    Yeah, it would require a two sentence explanation. Relax, everything will be just fine.



    Okay.....



    If the Tinker is mech based, then it stands to reason that the healing spec would also be mech-based. Especially if you're dealing with base abilities that are bomb/missile based.



    WC3 and HotS Tinkers still launch and deploy devices via a mech, even outside of Robo-Goblin form.



    Dark Iron Dwarves are more technologically inclined than standard dwarves. It would make little logical sense for mainline Dwarves to be Tinkers and not Dark Irons.



    Yeah, we're not talking about any of those classes, we're talking about Tinkers.

    Also the Vulpera wouldn't cause a chain reaction. It would stop with them since it would 2 for 2 on both factions, and Vulpera are the Goblin allied race.



    I'm sure you believe that....





    That's lore based as well.



    Except Demon Hunters never had permanent Meta form in WC3 or WoW. Tinkers did have permanent mech form in WC3 and the various NPCs we're seeing inside mechs also are in permanent mech forms.



    Why would it need to? Just make it like Druids where they have a neutral caster form with its own set of base abilities. In the case of a Tinker, they can have a "pilot mode" where they're outside of the mech and have device-based abilities like a laser gun, a personal teleportation device, a personal shield, etc.

    In addition, the pilot form wouldn't be useless. Let's say for example you're about to die while inside your mech? Well, you can use an Eject ability that blows up your mech for AoE damage and projects you 20-30 ft forward. The upside is that you survived and escaped. The downside is that you can't re-summon your mech for a set amount of time, so now you need to rely on your pilot abilities with your health at critical.
    Because you think that it's a proof of Mekkatorque being an Iron Man.

    You could say that about any race/class combination. "just apply a two sentence explanation". You know where it will get us? everybody getting everything with a minimal explanation.

    You really do need, though. Even Demon Hunter's elf restriction follows lore.

    That's if the Alchemist gets integrated into the Tinker class.

    When you addressed something as a mech, you didn't mean claw pack.

    Yet, Dwarves are listed in lore as Tinkers, while Dark Iron Dwarves are not.
    "From steam armor to long-range rifles, dwarves employ science for the art of war. Thus, most of their inventions are armor, weapons or war machines. Dwarven inventions include gunpowder, firearms, siege works, war golems and other weapons of war."

    "Dark Iron technology is about military and manufacture.

    Examples of known technology developed by the Dark Iron:

    Stone golem
    Dark Iron golem
    Omnotron Defense System
    War golem
    Dark Iron Mole Machine"

    It would cause a chain reaction because people would want to know why a race of nomadic primitives get to be Tinkers but, other races with actual established lore, don't.

    The question is, what version are they going to use for the mech? the WC3 version or the HotS version?

    Robo-Goblin Counters
    The Robo-Goblin's weakness is that he cannot be healed by friendly spells. If you focus your attacks on him, you might be able to kill him before he reverts into his organic form so he can be healed.

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