If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Traveler Voltin]

What is debunked?

You asked gameplay overlap. So what do you actually mean by overlapping gameplay?

If you can't define it, then there's nothing we can discuss. If you don't think Paladin and Priest overlap, then explain the standard so that we can apply it back to the Necromancer.

i will explain it for you since it seems like you cant figure it out on your own.

Paladin: holy warrior infused with light.
Prot: uses light to increase survival.
Ret: Use light to infuse melee attacks and increase melee damage
Holy: Uses the light from themselves to heal.

Priest: Channels light or shadow
Holy: calls upon light to heal allies.
Disc: calls upon light to deal damage and heal allies. sometimes uses shadow
shadow: uses shadow magic to damage.


now for the point.

necromancers are known for 2 things, Summoning undead minions and spread plague.
for the sake of example i will use names for specs.
Bone: Summons undead minions to overwhelm enemies. (issues with this is Unholy Dk and demonology warlock basically so the same thing)
Plague Doctor: spreads diseases to kill enemies. this sounds like a dot style spec. (overlap with Unholy dk and affliction warlock.)
Transfusion: drains the life of enemies and transfers it to an ally. (no over lap here.)

[Teriz]

How are Warlocks and Demon Hunters distinct since both use "demonic magic" if we use the same reductive and simplistic way you view the distinction between Necromancers and Death Knights.

Simple. This is a Warlock;



This is a Demon Hunter;



One controls demons, the other becomes a demon. One seeks to use demons to conquer, the other seeks to destroy demons using their own power.

This concept is embodied in two major lore characters; Illidan and Gul'dan.

What about Necromancers and DKs?

Well there's a slight problem there. While WC3 (and later WoW) had Necromancers, they also had Death Knights. They were all ruled by the Lich King. When the Death Knight class was created, all of the concepts of scourge necromancy were put into that class since the DK was largely based on the Lich King. The Death Knight was elevated to pretty much being the home of all things necromancy in the class lineup.

Also there's no Necromancer lore character to base a necromancer class off of. There never really ever was.

So with that in place why would we need another necromancer class? Because some people on the internet don't feel that the Death Knight fulfills the necromancer fantasy?

Stop deflecting, you've been questioning for multiple posts why people who want a Necromancer class aren't satisfied with the Death Knight class, I pointed out that Death Knights and Necromancers have distinct themes and gameplay and derive from different archetypes, my images were to highlighted this, most images you see of a "necromancer" aren't heavily armored, melee fighting, undead warriors which are the traits of the Anti-Paladin/Death Knight/Dark Knight archetype that the Death Knight class derives from.

The common image of a necromancer is a cloth or lightly armored, staff or dagger wielder who casts spells and lets undead minions fight for him, that is the Necromancers archetype, that is what people ask for when they want a "Necromancer" not an Anti-Paladin/Dark Knight.

But again, we have a Blizzard Necromancer who is melee. Wouldn't that indicate that you have a different concept of what a Necromancer is than Blizzard? Further, wouldn't that indicate that while YOU and others may have an issue with melee necromancers, Blizzard does not?

My friend, that isn't a deflection, that is the entire point.

"We" aren't creating anything, Blizzard is. All this thread is is people putting forward their suggestions for what they want/think it could be. Tinkers, Necromancers, Dark Rangers, Dragonsworn, ect all of these suggestions are not anymore likely than others because "we" aren't Blizzard.

Necromancers if they were added would likely have the gameplay design common to spellcasters such having cast times, using spellpower to calculate damage, not being melee, that inherently makes them different from Death Knights on a gameplay level because Death Knights are melee fighters with very few cast times, Same way Demon Hunters are inherently different on a gameplay level from Warlocks due to being a highly mobile melee fighter with no cast times.

Again, nothing indicates that Necromancers NEED to be ranged or have spell cast times. Again, there's Xul, a Blizzard necromancer to prove that fact.

Necromancy/Death magic is only "narrow" because it fits your narrative, Shadowlands has greatly expanded what Necromancy/Death magic can do and it's visuals with the introduction of Maldraxxus, Bastion, Ardenweald and Revendreth, all of the covenant abilities we have are Necromancy/Death Magic.

Stop conflating gameplay with lore, spell schools are a gameplay mechanic not lore, Death Knights do not use Shadow/Void magic they use Necromancy/Death Magic, the only classes and specs by lore that use Shadow magic are Rogues (Subtlety), Priests (Shadow, Discipline) and Warlocks (All specs).

Gameplay-wise, what's the difference? Wouldn't how they behave gameplay-wise be more relevant since we're talking about classes and not lore?

Let's put this another way; In LORE there are non-Pandaren Monks all over the place. Do you think we're getting another Monk class because of that lore? If you don't think so, why do you think Blizzard would add another Necromancer class because of the lore?

When people talk about a class/specs thats a summoner people talk about a class that has summon-based gameplay abilities on a permanent or frequent basis i.e Warlocks or Unholy, Blood DK's and Frost DK's are not summoners because they have barely noticable worms, or a weapon that lasts 8 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown or Frost DK's have a "summon" thats actually a spell effect with no actual summoning component (on a 3 minute cooldown). Nobody in their right mind calls Frost or Blood DK a "Pet class" or a "summon class" same way people don't call Monks a pet or summon class because they can summon a celestial or a statue because that isn't what a pet class or a summoner class is in a gameplay sense.

Where did I call those summoner specs? I was simply showing you that they summon more than just ghouls, and all of those summons are related to necromancy.

Necromancers only "offer nothing different" because you actively refuse to acknowledge anything other than the Blood, Frost, Unholy as potential themes and think that any Necromancery/Death Magic using class has to conform to that trio of themes even though we have an entire expansion that has greatly expanded on what Necromancy/Death magic is.

When something is reinterpreting Blood, Frost or Unholy you say it's too similar to whats there (even when it completely changes the gameplay role) when it offers something different you say it's "too generic" or "unlike WoW" (as if you're the arbiter of what is/isn't WoW), there is no discussion because you actively ignore or change the rules to decry anything that isn't a concept you personally advocate for, as if people advocating for things other than what you like is somehow preventing what you like from getting in, nothing here is getting in because some people on a forum suggest it, a class will get added because of popular demand or because it's an archetype thats not fulfilled by anything else, Death Knights are not stopping Necromancers because they are different archetypes, same way warlocks and demon hunters are different archetypes, same way priests and paladins are different archetypes.

I refuse to acknowledge anything other than blood, frost, and unholy because that is what the definition of Necromancy is according to Blizzard via the Ultimate Guide. Anything outside of that isn't a Warcraft based Necromancy, but a fan concept.

I don't think we'll get a Shadowlands-based Necromancer immediately after Shadowlands but in the future if themes of death or afterlife ever become prominent same way i think if we ever deal with demonic themes again we could have the Demon Hunter class be opened to more races, or if the next is filler (i.e world revamp) expansion with design room (which i think would work as a way to introduce Tinkers without needing a "tech-expansion").

Shadowlands has set the precedence for non-evil necromancy in the form of the shadowlands covenants, opened up that non-evil necromancy to non-evil, non-scourge people to become Necromancers, all they need to say is: the breaking of the veil and the adventures/journey in the realms of the shadowlands has cause new knowledge of death magic to become more common among the people of Azeroth leading to new Necromancers who aren't evil scourge/cult of the damned members, same way pandaren leaving the wandering isle to join the factions allowed everyone to learn how to be monks.

Whatever opening Shadowlands has presented for a the Necromancer concept will simply be funneled into the Death Knight class and maybe a tiny bit into the Warlock class. Again, there's not point in introducing a Necromancer class in WoW when you have a Necromancer class already. Shadowlands should have been illustrative for many people, but clearly it hasn't been. That's very unfortunate.

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So you are saying an expansion feature can create new abilities that aren't taking away from the DK, but a Necromancer class can not?

Focus here. What Maldraxxus abilities have _taken away_ from the DK class? Remember, this is the issue you have brought up. The DK wouldn't need Fleshcraft, they have Bone Shield. These abilities are functionally freed up after Shadowlands.

Yes, because it's rather easy to create a couple of necromancer-themed abilities for each class over a new class with hundreds of abilities, passives, cooldowns, and talents. A Necromancer class wouldn't be getting abilities like In the Hunt, or Flayed Shot. In addition, since they're expansion abilities, some overlap is allowed because they will be gone next expansion.

Raise Dead is the _only_ iconic Necromancer ability that the DK has. The Necrolord Covenant abilities are practically new variations of tools that the DK class already has, like AOEs, Self Heals and Direct damage abilities. There are also abilities that don't quite fit the Death Knight archetype, like turning into a Skeletal Mage to cast spells or using a Bonedust Brew. Those would actually fit a Necromancer class because the covenant was themed around spellcasting, alchemy-using Necromancers.

Except Death Knights can turn undead and they can summon Skeletal mages.

You have claimed that DK abilities would need to be taken away in order to have Necromancers, and so far Necrolord Covenants has provided new Necromancer themed abilities for all classes without taking anything away from the DK.

Yeah, there's no way you can create a Necromancer class that doesn't take away from the existing DK or Warlock classes. You're free to believe otherwise, but you would be wrong.

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By giving them different abilities that function in a unique way mechanically. The same as with every other class in the game.

No other class in the game shares a theme on the level of a necromancer and a Death Knight, since those concepts are one in the same.

[Ielenia]

i will explain it for you since it seems like you cant figure it out on your own.

Paladin: holy warrior infused with light.
Prot: uses light to increase survival.
Ret: Use light to infuse melee attacks and increase melee damage
Holy: Uses the light from themselves to heal.

Priest: Channels light or shadow
Holy: calls upon light to heal allies.
Disc: calls upon light to deal damage and heal allies. sometimes uses shadow
shadow: uses shadow magic to damage.

Your definitions are not the same. Both priests AND paladins "channel the light". That is overlap.

Also, your definitions for their Holy specs is also very dishonest. How do you know the paladins use the light "from themselves"? What is "from themselves"? Both holy paladins and holy priests "use the light to heal". That is overlap.

necromancers are known for 2 things, Summoning undead minions and spread plague.

Death knights were known for one thing: summoning the dead. They didn't spread plagues before this. And also were not known for having powers of frost, or knowledge of blood magic. But after become playable, they can do those things now.

Bone: Summons undead minions to overwhelm enemies. (issues with this is Unholy Dk and demonology warlock basically so the same thing)
Plague Doctor: spreads diseases to kill enemies. this sounds like a dot style spec. (overlap with Unholy dk and affliction warlock.)

Why would this cause "issues" between necromancers and dks/warlocks, but somehow the warlocks and dks have those issues between themselves? Sounds kinda fishy to me.

[Biruta]

Vampire.
Specs:
Rakshas: Caster type that uses possession and drain spells. Can take a mist form to disorient and inflict much aoe damage on his enemies.
Drakuls: Tank spec that drains blood from his enemies to empower himself, surviving many types of attacks. Can take a form of a gargoyle to increase his physical and magical resistance.
Nosferatus: Melee spec that can take a humanoid bat form form to bleed his enemies to the dead.

[Traveler Voltin]

Your definitions are not the same. Both priests AND paladins "channel the light". That is overlap.

Also, your definitions for their Holy specs is also very dishonest. How do you know the paladins use the light "from themselves"? What is "from themselves"? Both holy paladins and holy priests "use the light to heal". That is overlap.

Paladins are infused with light magic. they dont channel it.
priests channel light.

[Ielenia]

What about Necromancers and DKs?

Simple. This is a necromancer:


And this is a death knight.


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Paladins are infused with light magic. they dont channel it.
priests channel light.

Okay. You're making a claim. Prove it. Show me that not only such a difference exist, but also show me why it matters.

Because your definition works against you because we can say that "necromancers are infused with necromantic magic, they don't channel it. While death knights channel necromancy through their runes."

[Traveler Voltin]

Okay. You're making a claim. Prove it. Show me that not only such a difference exist, but also show me why it matters.

Because your definition works against you because we can say that "necromancers are infused with necromantic magic, they don't channel it. While death knights channel necromancy through their runes."

go read rise of the lich king. one of the scenes in it tells how the light infused itself into arthas when he became a paladin.

[Ielenia]

go read rise of the lich king. one of the scenes in it tells how the light infused itself into arthas when he became a paladin.

Okay. You've shown that priests get infused with the light.

Now show me that priests don't get infused with the light in the same manner. And then show me why such a difference matters in the first place.

Because, like I said: we can say that "necromancers are infused with necromantic magic, they don't channel it. While death knights channel necromancy through their runes."

[Traveler Voltin]

Okay. You've shown that priests get infused with the light.

Now show me that priests don't get infused with the light in the same manner. And then show me why such a difference matters in the first place.

Because, like I said: we can say that "necromancers are infused with necromantic magic, they don't channel it. While death knights channel necromancy through their runes."

i said paladins are infused with light not priests. Arthas was never a priest. he went Warrior/fighter to paladin.
priests use shadow magic so they cant be infused with light.

[Triceron]

i will explain it for you since it seems like you cant figure it out on your own.

necromancers are known for 2 things, Summoning undead minions and spread plague.
for the sake of example i will use names for specs.

Sure, but these aren't examples of overlapping gameplay. You need to provide more information of why a Necromancer would overlap. Are we talking about a Necromancer that is not allowed to have its own mechanics?

Bone: Summons undead minions to overwhelm enemies. (issues with this is Unholy Dk and demonology warlock basically so the same thing)
Plague Doctor: spreads diseases to kill enemies. this sounds like a dot style spec. (overlap with Unholy dk and affliction warlock.)
Transfusion: drains the life of enemies and transfers it to an ally. (no over lap here.)

This is better. You have an example to talk about.

So yes, I agree with you that your example here is full of gameplay overlap, thus your example here is not an ideal way to make a Necromancer. It looks like the Healer spec would be the only unique spec, based on what you've listed here.

However, with a little modification, we can make a new concept that doesn't overlap.

I will update this post with an example in a bit.

[Traveler Voltin]

Sure, but these aren't examples of overlapping gameplay. You need to provide more information of why a Necromancer would overlap. Are we talking about a Necromancer that is not allowed to have its own mechanics?



This is better. You have an example to talk about.

So yes, I agree with you that your example here is full of gameplay overlap, thus your example here is not an ideal way to make a Necromancer. It looks like the Healer spec would be the only unique spec, based on what you've listed here.

However, with a little modification, we can make a new concept that doesn't overlap.

I will update this post with an example in a bit.

i will point back to my original question again.
How do you keep the theme of Necromancer(summoning an army of undead and spreading plague) while not having game play overlap?

[jellmoo]

Paladins are infused with light magic. they dont channel it.
priests channel light.

A Paladin is a Holy Priest that popped on a set of armour and grabbed a sword. That's the extent of the difference between the two.

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No other class in the game shares a theme on the level of a necromancer and a Death Knight, since those concepts are one in the same.

The Warlock and the Demon Hunter cover the same ground. One does spooky Demon things from far away, the other does spooky Demon things up close. The theme similarity is the same as with a Death Knight and a Necromancer.

[Traveler Voltin]

A Paladin is a Holy Priest that popped on a set of armour and grabbed a sword. That's the extent of the difference between the two.

.

you really dont know lore.

[Ielenia]

i said paladins are infused with light not priests. Arthas was never a priest. he went Warrior/fighter to paladin.

I meant paladins in my previous post, not priests, sorry. But I'm not talking about Arthas. I'm not talking about any specific characters. I need you to show me that priests are not infused with the light.

priests use shadow magic so they cant be infused with light.

Okay, two things: first, the priest class is not one singular entity. It's an agglomerate of several separate concepts, of the holiest of priests to the unholiest of acolytes. A holy priest does not have access to shadow magic just because the playable class can cast shadow spells. So saying "priests cannot be infused with the light because they have shadow magic" is a false statement to make. Especially since they have an ability called Apotheosis that kinda makes them look like they're infused with the light:


Second, paladins use shadow magic too, did you forget that the Venthyr covenant gives access to a shadow ability to paladins?

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you really dont know lore.

.. You do know that the official lore for the creation of paladins are literally priests who took martial training and warriors who took spiritual training, right?

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How do you keep the theme of Necromancer(summoning an army of undead and spreading plague) while not having game play overlap?

Read my sig.

[jellmoo]

you really dont know lore.

The Archbishop Alonsus Faol had perceived that the pious Clerics of Northshire, who had suffered such terrible attrition in the First War, were ill-suited for the dangers of combat. Along with many of the surviving Clerics of Northshire, he sought those of only the greatest virtue among the knighthood of Lordaeron and tutored them in the ways of magic. Led by the crusading Uther the Lightbringer, it now rested upon the new paladins - christened the Knights of the Silver Hand - to heal the wounds sustained in combat and to restore faith in the promise of freedom from orcish tyranny.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Paladin

They are literally Priests who went "Oh shit, Orcs are butchering us, let's pop on some armour and fight back!"

I may not be the lore expert of lore experts, but I at least know enough not to try and push my headcannon as facts.

[Triceron]

i will point back to my original question again.
How do you keep the theme of Necromancer(summoning an army of undead and spreading plague) while not having game play overlap?

By having summoning an integrated part of the class, similar to how pets used to be a part of every Hunter spec.

Warlocks aren't always summoning in every spec, they have a command summoner spec that excels at summoning. I will equate this to Azmodan and Arthas in Heroes of the Storm. Necromancer can have skeleton summons be part of an effect, similar to a visual DoT and folded into each spec's abilities. I will equate this to Xul and Nazeebo in Heroes of the storm. Warlocks have dedicated summons, and this makes sense since Demons are summoned from another plane. Necromancers however may have less choice, simply raising generic constructs based on what they have available, so their mechanics can play on generating minions out of direct damage abilities.

Each Necromancer spec can will generate Skeletons or other minions through Direct Damage or Utility abilities, much like Xul, Nazeebo and Malfurion in HOTS. Necromancers then has specs that focus on the type of auto-generated minions, and certain abilities might create Spiders or Oozes or Skeletal Mages/Archers.

Since Skeletons are auto generated, this plays into a resource system that lets every spec sacrifice or bolster them for different effects. Heal spec sacrifices them for healing, Plague sacrifices them to leave oozes or plague puddles, Bone can combine them into larger constructs, etc.

Warlocks only do this in one spec, and excel at it by directly summoning the minions, while a Necromancer (in my example) treats it as a secondary effect, and uses abilities to bolster their minions similar to how Unholy empowers minions.

DK unholy and Necromancer will obviously differ because they are Ranged and Melee differences. DK does both Bone and Plague in one Unholy spec, Necromancer splits this focus and specializes. It's similar to how Shamans excel in Fire and Frost magic in one melee spec (Enhancement) while Mages split the focus and master them separately. Necromancers would not spread plagues in melee, make use of DoTs and would not have any dedicated Pets. They would be specialized Spellcasters with minions generated through spells.


Bone would focus on a variety of skeletal summons that provide utility, and generate them with direct damage abilities like Spectral Scythe, Bone Spear, Bone Prison, Shadow Fissure etc. They would have carry over abilities from covenants like the mage's Skeletal Mage form and Bonedust Brew. Different spells could generate different types of minions, if you need more tanky body-blockers then use Bone Prison that also generates Skeletal Jailers with Shields. Need more artillery damage? Cast Shade which replicates some of your Shadow abilities when you attack.

Plague spec would focus on spreading plague, but not through DoTs rather through minions and effects. There is a strong focus on the use of Alchemy, Spiders and Poisons. Plague clouds, Poison Nova, Corpse Spiders, Plague Oozes, Plague Cauldron. This may seem similar to Unholy, but the concept would revolve more around zoning and positioning. Plague is an extension of what it may be like to play a spellcaster variation of Assassination Rogue, using poison utility and minions to combo different effects. Zones of sleeping gas for CC, giant Cauldrons that can body-block and auto-generate slimes (can be destroyed like totems), lots of different utility.

As for overlap, there's no real issue with overlap as long as mechanics are fun and feel different. Unholy would not play like Plague or Bone for the same reasons Frost DK doesn't play like Frost Mage; the melee and Ranged mechanics make all the difference.

Warlock overlap is also a non issue since they focus on Summoning, Direct DPS or DoTs in each spec while Necromancers incorporate them together in each spec as automatically generated effects.

Gameplay remains iconic to what a Necromancer would be without immediately overlapping with existing classes. The mechanics of auto-generated minions (Guardian types, not Pets) as a secondary resource and the primary focus being on direct damage Bone and alchemical Plague as ranged Spellcaster specs would be enough of a niche of its own.

[Vrinara]

Would probably be between Bard, Necromancer, and Tinker tbh. Though I would love to see a new mail wearing class. We have 4 leather wearers. (Rogue, Druid, DH, Monk) 3 Clothies (Priest, Mage, Warlock), 2 Mail classes (Hunter, Shaman) and 3 plate classes (DK, Paladin, Warrior) The fact that we have 4 leather wearers is just.. Crazy. Would love a mail class tbh.

[Merin]

Consolidate specs before adding a new class, IMO. They could probably cut half of the classes down to two trees if they stop pretending a specialization means forgetting everything else you knew.

[Triceron]

Yes, because it's rather easy to create a couple of necromancer-themed abilities for each class over a new class with hundreds of abilities, passives, cooldowns, and talents. A Necromancer class wouldn't be getting abilities like In the Hunt, or Flayed Shot. In addition, since they're expansion abilities, some overlap is allowed because they will be gone next expansion.

They don't need the Hunt or Flayed shot any more than DKs would.

Are you now saying it's not easy to make new abilities? I thought your argument was abilities only take away from DKs. I still don't see how any of these covenant examples have taken anything away from DKs.

Except Death Knights can turn undead and they can summon Skeletal mages.

Which is different from turning into a skeletal mage. Warlocks summon demons, not the same as becoming one right?

Yeah, there's no way you can create a Necromancer class that doesn't take away from the existing DK or Warlock classes. You're free to believe otherwise, but you would be wrong.

I fully acknowledge that Raise Dead could be taken away from DKs. I think a Necromancer Class could easily bypass this by having skeletons generate through abilities, similar to Shadow Priest abilities creating Shadowy Apparitions. No need to have any dedicated Summon ability.

The rest, you haven't been able to show concrete examples of DK or Warlock abilities being taken away. You failed to convince me the problem is legitimate. One spell isn't a big deal.

[Teriz]

Consolidate specs before adding a new class, IMO. They could probably cut half of the classes down to two trees if they stop pretending a specialization means forgetting everything else you knew.

Considering how DH players are constantly wanting a third spec, I don't think making every other class two specs is a good idea.

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The Warlock and the Demon Hunter cover the same ground. One does spooky Demon things from far away, the other does spooky Demon things up close. The theme similarity is the same as with a Death Knight and a Necromancer.

Yeah, they don't. Demon Hunters don't have demonic pets and Warlocks do. Demon Hunters have very few ranged abilities and Warlocks are full of such abilities. One controls demons, the other turns into a demon.

Death Knights have several ranged abilities. Death Knights transform into full undead, Death Knights can control the undead. Death Knights can mind control wild undead. Death Knights can summon armies of undead or one minion. I honestly can't think of an aspect of Necromancy that the DK can't do.

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They don't need the Hunt or Flayed shot any more than DKs would.

Are you now saying it's not easy to make new abilities? I thought your argument was abilities only take away from DKs. I still don't see how any of these covenant examples have taken anything away from DKs.

No, I'm saying that designing a necromancer ability for Hunters and Demon Hunters isn't the same as designing a necromancy ability for a Necromancer. That would run into the DK's design since the DK is a necromancer.

Which is different from turning into a skeletal mage. Warlocks summon demons, not the same as becoming one right?

Death Knights can become undead via Lichborne.

I fully acknowledge that Raise Dead could be taken away from DKs. I think a Necromancer Class could easily bypass this by having skeletons generate through abilities, similar to Shadow Priest abilities creating Shadowy Apparitions. No need to have any dedicated Summon ability.

The rest, you haven't been able to show concrete examples of DK or Warlock abilities being taken away. You failed to convince me the problem is legitimate. One spell isn't a big deal.

DKs already generate skeletons.