If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

The thing is, we have moved far away from our characters being anything other than singularly unique. We are at this point, super special heroes that somehow manage to defeat every possible enemy. Conversely, we deal explicitly with in game characters that function similarly. Characters with thicker than steel plot armour and abilities that pretty much defy logic.

The narrative that we are shown does not always follow the narrative that we are given as pieces of the overall story. There's the in game portion where by max level, we've lost track of the sheer number of Dragons we've slain, versus what the overall narrative implies, that Dragons are insanely powerful creatures tasked with guarding Azeroth.

Then there's just as much reason that Dragons can be playable for that very same reason - the story necessitates it outside of a commonly-understood standard that they should always be more powerful than mortals. It's really not that big of a deal when you consider that classes and races are fairly interchangeable in that we have playable Undead in the form of Forsaken or in the form of Death Knights, and we have playable (demi) Demons in the form of Demon Hunter. Dragons being part of that formula will essentially change our minds on what is possible in terms of what is and will be playable.

I think it's absolutely understandable that Dragons would seem way too powerful and that opens up a slippery slope - but who really cares here? We're already playing Undead Scourge Champions and Demonically-empowered Pseudo Demons, and Dragons are where we draw the line? The class lineup was never measured on a fair basis. What do Hunters do that would ever measure up against a Demon Hunter in lore? The answer - it doesn't really matter, because they're treated as equals in the end through game balance. Whether the race or class seems more special doesn't really affect what is or what will be in the future. It's not a slippery slope of you consider we only get a new class once in every 4 years, and even then that can be skipped.

I think it gets really hard to say that Dragons aren't these terrifyingly powerful creatures, when they really, really should be.

That's fine to believe, but that doesn't really mean they shouldn't be playable. Honestly, all that you would need to do to reflect this properly is by making them a defacto 'Hero Race', and introduce them without requiring the standard leveling to make. If they are tied directly into the Dragonsworn class as a Hero class, that makes even more sense that you aren't going to start out as a measily adventurer, and like the Death Knights and Demon Hunters that are uniquely stronger than regular mortals, the Dragons would follow suite starting off on a greater footing and standing amongst the veteran mortals in power. As it should be.

But where do we draw the line? Do we move to playable Abominations? Grond? Fel Guards? Grove Protectors?

Slippery slope argument is not an issue. We get 1 class every 4 years, if even. We're not going to be swarmed with dozens of new uber-powered classes and races just because Dragons become playable. This is an absolutely non-issue to worry about, not even worth debating.

Consider that we have playable Undead. In most games, that's already a big no-no considering an undead being is literally immortal and immune to many different affects. Pair that with a dedicated class like Death Knight which embodies Necromantic magic, and we already have the 'Abomination' that you're talking about introduced many years ago. How does a regular gnome hunter compare to a Death Knight? Honestly you can't compare it, because they're not meant to be compared in this way. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they are all set on equal grounds in the end-game.

Right now we conceptualize and create characters with set parameters. We make humanoid creatures that select a class and go adventuring. We play as Human Paladins, Orc Warriors, Forsaken Mages, Night Elf Rogues, etc... This is a staple of westernized fantasy. Moving to also allowing a playable Dragon is a massive shift on that. It takes us from being a character on a rise to glory story arc, and shifts us to being the creature that is usually at the end of that arc. It's a paradigm shift to what the game is and has been.

I see it differently. I see this as adhering to certain biases that confirm our own expectations.

Same argument could be used to argue against Death Knights ever being playable - because they are loyal only to the Lich King and would never serve the Horde or Alliance. Death Knights aren't mortals, they are dedicated to evil, and they would never fit into our society. Yet Blizzard changed everything you'd expect out of a 'western RPG' by allowing playable Undead since Vanilla (Undead were NOT a typical RPG race in most fantasy universes) and it paved the way for Death Knights to eventually be brought into the fold.

The precedent for Death Knights to be playable is just as absurd from a traditional 'western fantasy' perspective. Warcraft was never bound by those rules. They standardized honourable, good Orcs far before any other fantasy universe even considered it.

Is it impossible? Of course not. It absolutely could be done. My question here is: Should it?

Because I think it will fundamentally change the nature of the game, and I'm not sure in a positive way.

I'm not quite sure I agree. I think your argument stretches beyond 'Should it?' because it is centered on slippery slope arguments or classical depictions of fantasy/Warcraft lore, rather than take in the precedents that the game has already presented to us. World of Warcraft itself has broke all those rules and paradigms many many times, over and over again.

Blood Elves are on Horde. Pandaren are playable on both factions. Undead Champions of the Scourge and Pseudo-Demons are playable. The big question is why are we drawing the lines at Dragons, which have more reason to be playable than Undead and Demons. Even in D&D, Dragonborn has become a fairly standardized race, while Undead is still absolutely niche. Warcraft has an incredibly rich history where Dragons have direct involvement with mortal races in times of war and peace. What reason do we have to not have them playable?

We aren't exactly talking about Dragons in LOTR or D&D or Guild Wars, where they are absolutely mythical beasts of ancient legend. We're talking about Warcraft, where we have Dragons playable in Heroes of the Storm in mortal or Dragon forms alike amongst other mortals, or partnered with mortals in novels, or working alongside mortals in equal order. There's no lore-based or mechanics-based reason a Dragonsworn Hero class that introduces a Dragon race would be out of place. It's absolutely Hero class material.

Just as a note, I'm not arguing that they should be playable, but making a case that there's little reason to argue against them being playable given that Blizzard has already bent every rule in the book and turned exceptions into rules when regarding other classes or races. If we are strictly talking 'Should it happen' then that's purely subjective, and we wouldn't even need to bring evidence to the table in this type of discussion - it's purely subjective whether you want it to happen or not happen. My personal belief still sides with Mortal Dragonsworn as a class and not as a race; but I could see it happening either way because Blizzard does operate on the 'rule of cool' over all logic. Remember - Alternate Reality/Timeline Warlords of Draenor happened because Mongrel Horde and Ressurected Warlords weren't cool enough concepts.

[shoc]

But where do we draw the line? Do we move to playable Abominations? Grond? Fel Guards? Grove Protectors?

We draw the line where there is actual community interest in paying race change $$$ because WoW is a business and at the end of the day, the lore is just a means to gameplay and products. It has about as much cohesion as the Disney Princess-verse and only a fool would try to scrutinize it like Tolkien lore.

Blizzard will pull anything out of their ass if it means selling another expansion. Don't count out a Warcraft vs. Starcraft expansion in the far future when the bottom of the barrel has been completely scraped dry for the 10th time.

Being a Dragon would be dope and I think there would be lots of interest, since many of WoWs coolest characters are Dragons. We have frequently fought alongside Wrathion, Kalecgos, Krasus, Chromie, Ebonhorn.. the list goes on. None of them are overpowered, not like the Aspects are, and are perfectly in line with player-adventurer power.

Dragon, Dragonsworn, Dragonborn, Drakeman, the name is totally unimportant, would make for an excellent CLASS because the RACE choice would merely be the humanoid disguise. So if you chose to be a Gnome Dragon, you could be like Chromie.

They would of course have a flight-mount form where they transform into their full Dragon selves, that can carry friends. Rhonin and Krasus flying around and having adventures together is like, peak Warcraft.

[Teriz]

Cool. You aren't actually interested in discussing. That's fine. I'll let others play this game with you then.

We were discussing power levels, and I was merely asking you a question; Do you think a creature that can be killed by a lone orc is too powerful to be playable?

I mean you were comparing these creatures to Titans and Old Gods at one point. I don't recall any Titans or Old Gods getting shanked by a lone mortal.

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We draw the line where there is actual community interest in paying race change $$$ because WoW is a business and at the end of the day, the lore is just a means to gameplay and products. It has about as much cohesion as the Disney Princess-verse and only a fool would try to scrutinize it like Tolkien lore.

Blizzard will pull anything out of their ass if it means selling another expansion. Don't count out a Warcraft vs. Starcraft expansion in the far future when the bottom of the barrel has been completely scraped dry for the 10th time.

Being a Dragon would be dope and I think there would be lots of interest, since many of WoWs coolest characters are Dragons. We have frequently fought alongside Wrathion, Kalecgos, Krasus, Chromie, Ebonhorn.. the list goes on. None of them are overpowered, not like the Aspects are, and are perfectly in line with player-adventurer power.

Dragon, Dragonsworn, Dragonborn, Drakeman, the name is totally unimportant, would make for an excellent CLASS because the RACE choice would merely be the humanoid disguise. So if you chose to be a Gnome Dragon, you could be like Chromie.

They would of course have a flight-mount form where they transform into their full Dragon selves, that can carry friends. Rhonin and Krasus flying around and having adventures together is like, peak Warcraft.

Yup, that's pretty much it. Like I said, you create a class like that and you'll be looking at the most popular class in the game bar none. That's really the only downside; that it would be TOO popular and people might not want to play anything else. Blizzard may have to disallow it from being able to play all roles because I could imagine entire guilds and raids made up of only dragon class players.

[TheRevenantHero]

We draw the line where there is actual community interest in paying race change $$$ because WoW is a business and at the end of the day, the lore is just a means to gameplay and products. It has about as much cohesion as the Disney Princess-verse and only a fool would try to scrutinize it like Tolkien lore.

Blizzard will pull anything out of their ass if it means selling another expansion. Don't count out a Warcraft vs. Starcraft expansion in the far future when the bottom of the barrel has been completely scraped dry for the 10th time.

Being a Dragon would be dope and I think there would be lots of interest, since many of WoWs coolest characters are Dragons. We have frequently fought alongside Wrathion, Kalecgos, Krasus, Chromie, Ebonhorn.. the list goes on. None of them are overpowered, not like the Aspects are, and are perfectly in line with player-adventurer power.

Dragon, Dragonsworn, Dragonborn, Drakeman, the name is totally unimportant, would make for an excellent CLASS because the RACE choice would merely be the humanoid disguise. So if you chose to be a Gnome Dragon, you could be like Chromie.

They would of course have a flight-mount form where they transform into their full Dragon selves, that can carry friends. Rhonin and Krasus flying around and having adventures together is like, peak Warcraft.

How do you not realize how exceptionally stupid that is? Dragons are a fucking race and not a class. Furthermore, there's nowhere near enough dragons left in the world for dragons to be a playable race because dragons have been canonically sterile since Cataclysm. Dragons will never be playable. Not as a race and definitely not as a class. Races can't be fucking classes. Get that idea out of your head.

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Then there's just as much reason that Dragons can be playable for that very same reason - the story necessitates it outside of a commonly-understood standard that they should always be more powerful than mortals. It's really not that big of a deal when you consider that classes and races are fairly interchangeable in that we have playable Undead in the form of Forsaken or in the form of Death Knights, and we have playable (demi) Demons in the form of Demon Hunter. Dragons being part of that formula will essentially change our minds on what is possible in terms of what is and will be playable.

I think it's absolutely understandable that Dragons would seem way too powerful and that opens up a slippery slope - but who really cares here? We're already playing Undead Scourge Champions and Demonically-empowered Pseudo Demons, and Dragons are where we draw the line? The class lineup was never measured on a fair basis. What do Hunters do that would ever measure up against a Demon Hunter in lore? The answer - it doesn't really matter, because they're treated as equals in the end through game balance. Whether the race or class seems more special doesn't really affect what is or what will be in the future. It's not a slippery slope of you consider we only get a new class once in every 4 years, and even then that can be skipped.



That's fine to believe, but that doesn't really mean they shouldn't be playable. Honestly, all that you would need to do to reflect this properly is by making them a defacto 'Hero Race', and introduce them without requiring the standard leveling to make. If they are tied directly into the Dragonsworn class as a Hero class, that makes even more sense that you aren't going to start out as a measily adventurer, and like the Death Knights and Demon Hunters that are uniquely stronger than regular mortals, the Dragons would follow suite starting off on a greater footing and standing amongst the veteran mortals in power. As it should be.



Slippery slope argument is not an issue. We get 1 class every 4 years, if even. We're not going to be swarmed with dozens of new uber-powered classes and races just because Dragons become playable. This is an absolutely non-issue to worry about, not even worth debating.

Consider that we have playable Undead. In most games, that's already a big no-no considering an undead being is literally immortal and immune to many different affects. Pair that with a dedicated class like Death Knight which embodies Necromantic magic, and we already have the 'Abomination' that you're talking about introduced many years ago. How does a regular gnome hunter compare to a Death Knight? Honestly you can't compare it, because they're not meant to be compared in this way. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they are all set on equal grounds in the end-game.




I see it differently. I see this as adhering to certain biases that confirm our own expectations.

Same argument could be used to argue against Death Knights ever being playable - because they are loyal only to the Lich King and would never serve the Horde or Alliance. Death Knights aren't mortals, they are dedicated to evil, and they would never fit into our society. Yet Blizzard changed everything you'd expect out of a 'western RPG' by allowing playable Undead since Vanilla (Undead were NOT a typical RPG race in most fantasy universes) and it paved the way for Death Knights to eventually be brought into the fold.

The precedent for Death Knights to be playable is just as absurd from a traditional 'western fantasy' perspective. Warcraft was never bound by those rules. They standardized honourable, good Orcs far before any other fantasy universe even considered it.



I'm not quite sure I agree. I think your argument stretches beyond 'Should it?' because it is centered on slippery slope arguments or classical depictions of fantasy/Warcraft lore, rather than take in the precedents that the game has already presented to us. World of Warcraft itself has broke all those rules and paradigms many many times, over and over again.

Blood Elves are on Horde. Pandaren are playable on both factions. Undead Champions of the Scourge and Pseudo-Demons are playable. The big question is why are we drawing the lines at Dragons, which have more reason to be playable than Undead and Demons. Even in D&D, Dragonborn has become a fairly standardized race, while Undead is still absolutely niche. Warcraft has an incredibly rich history where Dragons have direct involvement with mortal races in times of war and peace. What reason do we have to not have them playable?

We aren't exactly talking about Dragons in LOTR or D&D or Guild Wars, where they are absolutely mythical beasts of ancient legend. We're talking about Warcraft, where we have Dragons playable in Heroes of the Storm in mortal or Dragon forms alike amongst other mortals, or partnered with mortals in novels, or working alongside mortals in equal order. There's no lore-based or mechanics-based reason a Dragonsworn Hero class that introduces a Dragon race would be out of place. It's absolutely Hero class material.

Just as a note, I'm not arguing that they should be playable, but making a case that there's little reason to argue against them being playable given that Blizzard has already bent every rule in the book and turned exceptions into rules when regarding other classes or races. If we are strictly talking 'Should it happen' then that's purely subjective, and we wouldn't even need to bring evidence to the table in this type of discussion - it's purely subjective whether you want it to happen or not happen. My personal belief still sides with Mortal Dragonsworn as a class and not as a race; but I could see it happening either way because Blizzard does operate on the 'rule of cool' over all logic. Remember - Alternate Reality/Timeline Warlords of Draenor happened because Mongrel Horde and Ressurected Warlords weren't cool enough concepts.

We can always make more demon hunters. We can't more dragons because they're sterile.

[shoc]

We were discussing power levels, and I was merely asking you a question; Do you think a creature that can be killed by a lone orc is too powerful to be playable?

I mean you were comparing these creatures to Titans and Old Gods at one point. I don't recall any Titans or Old Gods getting shanked by a lone mortal.

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Yup, that's pretty much it. Like I said, you create a class like that and you'll be looking at the most popular class in the game bar none. That's really the only downside; that it would be TOO popular and people might not want to play anything else. Blizzard may have to disallow it from being able to play all roles because I could imagine entire guilds and raids made up of only dragon class players.

I don't think people would just overwhelmingly play a Dragon class though, just because it's available. I mean it is hella fucking cool I agree but it doesn't subtract from the coolness of the other classes. Realistically, nobody would play it if it simmed poorly, no matter how cool it is.

Your concept of 5 specs based on each of the colors is not very practical, it won't be balanceable and it creates its own problem of whole guilds potentially being Dragon class. That being said, despite Monks being able to Tank Heal and DPS it is not excessively popular.

Turning each spec into Dual Color solves this problem, just make playable Dragons flexible, it would help explain the spec-swapping too.

Here's a 5-second idea for a Cloth-only Dragon class with 3 specs.

Red/Green (Healer): Healing spec that uses a mix of restorative red and green Dragonflame. Thematically, it is like new life flourishing in the carbon-rich ground after a forest fire. A rotation based on the cycle of growing, then burning, then growing from the ashes would be dope.

Blue/Bronze (Healer): Healing spec that uses the time-manipulation magic from both Arcane, as well as Bronze dragon magic, as a damage-reversal-based Healer, in addition to Abjuration skills, like magic shields. We all know how this spec would work, time-travel based healers are so commonly suggested.

Black/Twilight (Ranged DPS): Based on the destructive and firey nature of the Black Dragonflight as well as their Void-corrupted cousins. After N'Zoth's defeat, some of them had their minds cleared by Wrathion with the promise that they, and he himself, will find themselves someday, despite their pasts. Thematically, this spec lands somewhere between Destruction Warlock sans-Fel and Shadow Priest. Lava Tentacles are a must!

There, a class with 2 healing specs and a ranged caster DPS. It doesn't compete with other popular classes and we finally get a new cloth and ranged DPS class for once.

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How do you not realize how exceptionally stupid that is? Dragons are a fucking race and not a class. Furthermore, there's nowhere near enough dragons left in the world for dragons to be a playable race because dragons have been canonically sterile since Cataclysm. Dragons will never be playable. Not as a race and definitely not as a class. Races can't be fucking classes. Get that idea out of your head.

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We can always make more demon hunters. We can't more dragons because they're sterile.

What does reproduction have to do with whether a race can be playable? Warcraft takes place over like, a decade. Humans could have been sterilized at the end of Cataclysm too and nothing would change.

Making Dragons a Class is ideal because of the fact that they take on Mortal Forms. Race choice becomes the Form choice. It works perfectly within the bounds of WoW game mechanics. Because when they aren't the size of a Flying Mount they look like an ordinary Elf or a Gnome or Tauren, Dragon as a Class means you're locked into Race choice like everyone else.

[Teriz]

I don't think people would just overwhelmingly play a Dragon class though, just because it's available. I mean it is hella fucking cool I agree but it doesn't subtract from the coolness of the other classes. Realistically, nobody would play it if it simmed poorly, no matter how cool it is.

Your concept of 5 specs based on each of the colors is not very practical, it won't be balanceable and it creates its own problem of whole guilds potentially being Dragon class. That being said, despite Monks being able to Tank Heal and DPS it is not excessively popular.

Turning each spec into Dual Color solves this problem, just make playable Dragons flexible, it would help explain the spec-swapping too.

Here's a 5-second idea for a Cloth-only Dragon class with 3 specs.

Red/Green (Healer): Healing spec that uses a mix of restorative red and green Dragonflame. Thematically, it is like new life flourishing in the carbon-rich ground after a forest fire. A rotation based on the cycle of growing, then burning, then growing from the ashes would be dope.

Blue/Bronze (Healer): Healing spec that uses the time-manipulation magic from both Arcane, as well as Bronze dragon magic, as a damage-reversal-based Healer, in addition to Abjuration skills, like magic shields. We all know how this spec would work, time-travel based healers are so commonly suggested.

Black/Twilight (Ranged DPS): Based on the destructive and firey nature of the Black Dragonflight as well as their Void-corrupted cousins. After N'Zoth's defeat, some of them had their minds cleared by Wrathion with the promise that they, and he himself, will find themselves someday, despite their pasts. Thematically, this spec lands somewhere between Destruction Warlock sans-Fel and Shadow Priest. Lava Tentacles are a must!

There, a class with 2 healing specs and a ranged caster DPS. It doesn't compete with other popular classes and we finally get a new cloth and ranged DPS class for once.

I do agree with combining the dragon flights in order to bring 5 specs down to 3.

However, I would make the armor mail, since we only have 2 mail classes vs 3 cloth, 3 plate, and 4 leather.

Also I would make Blue/Bronze the ranged DPS spec, and make Black/Twilight a ranged tanking spec.

Yeah I know people will freak out, but I think Blizz can pull it off.

[jellmoo]

Then there's just as much reason that Dragons can be playable for that very same reason - the story necessitates it outside of a commonly-understood standard that they should always be more powerful than mortals. It's really not that big of a deal when you consider that classes and races are fairly interchangeable in that we have playable Undead in the form of Forsaken or in the form of Death Knights, and we have playable (demi) Demons in the form of Demon Hunter. Dragons being part of that formula will essentially change our minds on what is possible in terms of what is and will be playable.

Except in those cases we are still dealing with things that are still very humanoid centric. It doesn't pull us out of our established comfort zones to play as a Forsaken or a Death Knight. These are very much within the realm of what we are used to. Same with Demon Hunters. We aren't playing as an actual Demon, we are playing as humanoid creatures that can occasionally transform into one. We touch on the monstrous and strange without stretching too far into it. We aren't playing as Abominations. We aren't playing as Fel Guards. We hover at the point where we can still feel like we are a part of the respective "human" world, even if our characters are considered outsiders from it.

I think there is a threshold there. Stepping too far over it fundamentally changes that relationship.

I think it's absolutely understandable that Dragons would seem way too powerful and that opens up a slippery slope - but who really cares here? We're already playing Undead Scourge Champions and Demonically-empowered Pseudo Demons, and Dragons are where we draw the line? The class lineup was never measured on a fair basis. What do Hunters do that would ever measure up against a Demon Hunter in lore? The answer - it doesn't really matter, because they're treated as equals in the end through game balance. Whether the race or class seems more special doesn't really affect what is or what will be in the future. It's not a slippery slope of you consider we only get a new class once in every 4 years, and even then that can be skipped.

I don't disagree with your conclusion here. We already suspend disbelief quite a bit. We have dude A swinging two giant swords, dude B throwing magical fire, dude C summoning foul demons to fight, and dude D walks up and... punches... things. There is an element of suspension of disbelief that radiates throughout the game that needs to be accepted.

But I do think that there is a vague limit as to what the human brain can conceptualize as being "these things are kinda even". A lot of time, on a narrative level all that matters is how the writer crafts the story. You look at the Warrior with the sword that needs to defeat the Wizard that can alter the fabric of the universe and it seems impossible. But the write crafts a story that lets it happen and it feels magical. Exceptional. In a way, Wow translates that into game form. We face odds that we shouldn't be able to overcome, and we do it, giving us a spiritual victory. My worry is that this gets diminished if we put out a perceived "power creep" here. Is there the same sense of accomplishment when a ragtag group of adventurers overcome the odds and down the dungeon boss if that group is comprised of 5 immortal dragons bristling with draconic might? I'm honestly not sure.

That's fine to believe, but that doesn't really mean they shouldn't be playable. Honestly, all that you would need to do to reflect this properly is by making them a defacto 'Hero Race', and introduce them without requiring the standard leveling to make. If they are tied directly into the Dragonsworn class as a Hero class, that makes even more sense that you aren't going to start out as a measily adventurer, and like the Death Knights and Demon Hunters that are uniquely stronger than regular mortals, the Dragons would follow suite starting off on a greater footing and standing amongst the veteran mortals in power. As it should be.

But it also doesn't mean that they should be playable. We have to look at what the boundaries of our sandbox are as well. WoW has thus far been a game structured into pretty predictable and standardized roles. It's very vanilla in that way. They haven't done a ton to shift out of that mould.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't, rather that there should be a lot of thought put into something that shifts the play of the game that much.

Slippery slope argument is not an issue. We get 1 class every 4 years, if even. We're not going to be swarmed with dozens of new uber-powered classes and races just because Dragons become playable. This is an absolutely non-issue to worry about, not even worth debating.

Consider that we have playable Undead. In most games, that's already a big no-no considering an undead being is literally immortal and immune to many different affects. Pair that with a dedicated class like Death Knight which embodies Necromantic magic, and we already have the 'Abomination' that you're talking about introduced many years ago. How does a regular gnome hunter compare to a Death Knight? Honestly you can't compare it, because they're not meant to be compared in this way. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they are all set on equal grounds in the end-game.

I disagree completely. It is a big issue because once you open Pandora's Box, you can't stuff everything back in again. You're right, we don't get classes that often. Now. What happens in 2 years? If subs plummet and Blizzard goes for a knee jerk reaction? Once you introduce something as unique as a Dragon as a playable thing, it's hard to go back. What you bring in next has to be just as exciting. And if Blizzard goes into panic mode, who's to say that theur solution wouldn't be to shovel these things onto the players hoping it puts a band aid on the problem? At that point, what kind of game are we looking at?

I see it differently. I see this as adhering to certain biases that confirm our own expectations.

Same argument could be used to argue against Death Knights ever being playable - because they are loyal only to the Lich King and would never serve the Horde or Alliance. Death Knights aren't mortals, they are dedicated to evil, and they would never fit into our society. Yet Blizzard changed everything you'd expect out of a 'western RPG' by allowing playable Undead since Vanilla (Undead were NOT a typical RPG race in most fantasy universes) and it paved the way for Death Knights to eventually be brought into the fold.

The precedent for Death Knights to be playable is just as absurd from a traditional 'western fantasy' perspective. Warcraft was never bound by those rules. They standardized honourable, good Orcs far before any other fantasy universe even considered it.

But that's just window dressing to their game world. It's what they decided to make the WoW universe. And we've had 16+ years of it to work with. And you're absolutely right that it's a unique thing, but within that uniqueness there are also inherent limitations. The narrative can always be changed to accommodate something, you're absolutely right about that. But there is also a limit as to where we as players stop and go "huh..." that can be good or bad. We can hit that wall and wonder where it's going to take us next.

I have absolutely no doubt that playing a Dragon would be insanely popular. I'm just not sure that it is in and of itself a good thing for the health of the game.

I'm not quite sure I agree. I think your argument stretches beyond 'Should it?' because it is centered on slippery slope arguments or classical depictions of fantasy/Warcraft lore, rather than take in the precedents that the game has already presented to us. World of Warcraft itself has broke all those rules and paradigms many many times, over and over again.

Well, I honestly wasn't planning on arguing about it at all and started posting mostly as joke, so any arguments I've made have been half hearted at best and tinged with frustration for non subject related reasons.

Blood Elves are on Horde. Pandaren are playable on both factions. Undead Champions of the Scourge and Pseudo-Demons are playable. The big question is why are we drawing the lines at Dragons, which have more reason to be playable than Undead and Demons. Even in D&D, Dragonborn has become a fairly standardized race, while Undead is still absolutely niche. Warcraft has an incredibly rich history where Dragons have direct involvement with mortal races in times of war and peace. What reason do we have to not have them playable?

Because we are hitting a line here though. All of these things are well understood, relatable things that have a similar mechanic. A similar way of building them.

For example, you make your Undead Rogue. It has a unique culture built on the ruins of Undercity. You have a tragic story, coupled with your race and class mechanics. You level up, get gear, become a hero of the Horde. You become the world's best Rogue. You wield wondrous weapons.

Regardless of what race you pick, regardless of what class you pick, you have an incredibly similar arc. This is what players have become accustomed to over the past 16+ years. What we are talking about is a paradigm shift to that. You are a Dragon. You have no class. You just are a creature of power. You exist at a different level than everything else.

I don't think the ramifications are as simple as you're making them out to be. That it's just another addition to the game. It's a fundamental mechanical change, but also a fundamental change to the landscape of what the game has been. It reminds me of when Star Wars Galaxies introduced Jedi to their game. It made a collsally massive change to the game, and contributed to the downfall of the property.

We aren't exactly talking about Dragons in LOTR or D&D or Guild Wars, where they are absolutely mythical beasts of ancient legend. We're talking about Warcraft, where we have Dragons playable in Heroes of the Storm in mortal or Dragon forms alike amongst other mortals, or partnered with mortals in novels, or working alongside mortals in equal order.

The lore is at odds with that though. No this isn't LoTR, you're right, but we are talking about creatures of immense size and power regardless. And maybe it's pure preference on my part, but this honestly feels like we are taking what's a staple of the fantasy genre and trivializing them. Especially when they are supposed to the immortal guardians of the world.

There's no lore-based or mechanics-based reason a Dragonsworn Hero class that introduces a Dragon race would be out of place. It's absolutely Hero class material.

And I'm forced to disagree. I have yet to see an actual reason to warrant it other than "it would be cool". And I don't disagree with that, sure it would be cool. But I don't think that's a valid reason for everything to be added to the game.

Just as a note, I'm not arguing that they should be playable, but making a case that there's little reason to argue against them being playable given that Blizzard has already bent every rule in the book and turned exceptions into rules when regarding other classes or races. If we are strictly talking 'Should it happen' then that's purely subjective, and we wouldn't even need to bring evidence to the table in this type of discussion - it's purely subjective whether you want it to happen or not happen. My personal belief still sides with Mortal Dragonsworn as a class and not as a race; but I could see it happening either way because Blizzard does operate on the 'rule of cool' over all logic. Remember - Alternate Reality/Timeline Warlords of Draenor happened because Mongrel Horde and Ressurected Warlords weren't cool enough concepts.

Again, I don't disagree. My argument really isn't that they can't. They absolutely can. Mechanically they can do it. From a lore perspective they can do it. They can craft whatever story they want to make it happen.

I'm just really not convinced they should. I'm not convinced that it's the sort of thing that can be responsibly added to the game without things spiralling out of control.

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We draw the line where there is actual community interest in paying race change $$$ because WoW is a business and at the end of the day, the lore is just a means to gameplay and products. It has about as much cohesion as the Disney Princess-verse and only a fool would try to scrutinize it like Tolkien lore.

Blizzard will pull anything out of their ass if it means selling another expansion. Don't count out a Warcraft vs. Starcraft expansion in the far future when the bottom of the barrel has been completely scraped dry for the 10th time.

Being a Dragon would be dope and I think there would be lots of interest, since many of WoWs coolest characters are Dragons. We have frequently fought alongside Wrathion, Kalecgos, Krasus, Chromie, Ebonhorn.. the list goes on. None of them are overpowered, not like the Aspects are, and are perfectly in line with player-adventurer power.

Dragon, Dragonsworn, Dragonborn, Drakeman, the name is totally unimportant, would make for an excellent CLASS because the RACE choice would merely be the humanoid disguise. So if you chose to be a Gnome Dragon, you could be like Chromie.

They would of course have a flight-mount form where they transform into their full Dragon selves, that can carry friends. Rhonin and Krasus flying around and having adventures together is like, peak Warcraft.

Here's the thing though: I think Blizzard absolutely loves to make money, you're right. But I also think that they play the long game. They don't just want to make money now, they want to make money for a long time to come.

They want the game to thrive and continue for a good long while. They've been milking a cash cow for a lot longer than anyone thought they could, and I doubt they want that to end. So I'm not sure that they would eagerly toss in something that, yes, would make a ton of money in the short term, if it could impact the health of the game so much that in the long term they lose out.

I really don't think that something being dope is enough. I think there needs to be more to it and that it needs to be carefully thought out.

[Triceron]

We can always make more demon hunters. We can't more dragons because they're sterile.

Then we use Titan facility shenanigans to make more. Done.

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Except in those cases we are still dealing with things that are still very humanoid centric. It doesn't pull us out of our established comfort zones to play as a Forsaken or a Death Knight.

If you're speaking out for yourself, then yes, I can agree with that sentiment. Dragons are very much a non-humanoid creature, and doesn't fit the mold that we expect of races that take up classes.

However, established comfort zones are absolutely relative. Undead were not a norm, and while many people would have wanted to play as them, just as many would have argued against them back in the day. Playable Gnomes and Pandarens test certain people's comfort zones as well.

I don't think any race decision should be based on protecting the fanbase. I'm of the thought that if a customization option is possible, it should be made available. Protecting and censoring on the basis of 'people might feel uncomfortable' is not the way to deal with this.

I think there is a threshold there. Stepping too far over it fundamentally changes that relationship.

Everyone has their own threshold. If this is your threshold then I will respect that. If you're talking on behalf of others, then honestly I don't think this is worth discussing on the basis of Finicky Jim Only Plays Humanoids. The relationship has already stepped too far with Gnomes for some people, Undead for others, and Pandarens even more so. Should we really be coddling the fanbase because of this?

But I do think that there is a vague limit as to what the human brain can conceptualize as being "these things are kinda even". A lot of time, on a narrative level all that matters is how the writer crafts the story. You look at the Warrior with the sword that needs to defeat the Wizard that can alter the fabric of the universe and it seems impossible. But the write crafts a story that lets it happen and it feels magical. Exceptional. In a way, Wow translates that into game form. We face odds that we shouldn't be able to overcome, and we do it, giving us a spiritual victory. My worry is that this gets diminished if we put out a perceived "power creep" here. Is there the same sense of accomplishment when a ragtag group of adventurers overcome the odds and down the dungeon boss if that group is comprised of 5 immortal dragons bristling with draconic might? I'm honestly not sure.

If they stay as a Hero Class-specific Race, then I don't see the problem with them fitting in as powerful beings within the narrative. They are never introduced as mere adventurers starting on a random zone or on Exile's Reach. They would be powerful beings off the bat, learning their powers, and setting forth on a journey straight into the latest content. This is how Death Knights and Demon Hunters set forth, and the example is the greatest example of how Dragons should be treated.

We're not talking about having Aspects playable, just Dragons that are on par with the *mightiest* heroes of Azeroth.

I disagree completely. It is a big issue because once you open Pandora's Box, you can't stuff everything back in again. You're right, we don't get classes that often. Now. What happens in 2 years? If subs plummet and Blizzard goes for a knee jerk reaction? Once you introduce something as unique as a Dragon as a playable thing, it's hard to go back. What you bring in next has to be just as exciting. And if Blizzard goes into panic mode, who's to say that theur solution wouldn't be to shovel these things onto the players hoping it puts a band aid on the problem? At that point, what kind of game are we looking at?

I don't think that's necessarily true. Allied Races showed that a mixed bag of Taurens with antlers or Light-based Draenei can still be acceptable, whereas a unique race like Naga still remains unplayable to this day. Dragons being tied to a class-specific pick doesn't really replace race options. Dragons being tied to a specific class doesn't impact people choosing to roll alts, or pick a new race/class combo, or continue playing their mains. If this was true then everyone would be a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight because they're literally the coolest Class/Races out there, with the best customization options available in the game.

Pandora's box has been opened as far back as Wrath of the Lich King. I think you're giving Dragons a bit too much credit for being uber crazy considering the Dragon you'd be playing isn't going to be played in their 'true form' all the time the way Worgen choose to activate theirs. It would be 99% represented in a humanoid form of your choice (based on existing races) with a proper leveling experience that explains why they choose to do so.

I have absolutely no doubt that playing a Dragon would be insanely popular. I'm just not sure that it is in and of itself a good thing for the health of the game.

To be honest, none of truly know what is good for the health of the game and what is not. Not even the devs really know in the long-term.

Was not releasing a class in Shadowlands good or bad for the game? Well I would have said it was bad, but look at it now without a new class. Was Covenants good for the game or bad? Many people saw the problems in the imbalance of the system, and still do. But is it good or bad that it's here? It really all depends on where you stand. And I mean, seeing by the numbers of sales of Shadowlands, can we really say it's been bad for the health of the game? Can we even attribute this one feature to its health? It's future health? We won't know if they don't take the chances. And frankly, I think WoW's lived long enough that even with another 10+ years in mind, having Dragons playable isn't the worst that can happen to its lifespan.

I don't think the ramifications are as simple as you're making them out to be. That it's just another addition to the game. It's a fundamental mechanical change, but also a fundamental change to the landscape of what the game has been. It reminds me of when Star Wars Galaxies introduced Jedi to their game. It made a collsally massive change to the game, and contributed to the downfall of the property.

Dragons aren't going to be mechanically more powerful than any other race or class in the game. People will figure this out just as easily as we've all figured out that Death Knights 'HERO CLASS' moniker was little more than a marketting tool. WoW won't have the Jedi issue so long as the end-game remains fair and balanced. I see no worries here, honestly.

As for what people choose to play, fads will come and go. No problem if many people decide to roll a Dragon class. At the end of the day, most will return to what they're used to. The way WoW is balanced, it's meant to shift power scale between different classes, and Dragonsworn will not stay at the top forever, and the people will jump ship to whatever is most powerful or end up simply picking what they prefer because we all know how WoW is balanced.

I'm just really not convinced they should. I'm not convinced that it's the sort of thing that can be responsibly added to the game without things spiralling out of control.

I think this is absolutely fair.

I just think it'd be better to discuss on this basis rather than trying to *prove* that it would be wrong on the basis of any mechanics or lore which don't yet exist; or comparing it to other games/systems which aren't very representative of Warcraft's unique systems and lore. Dragons in Warcraft are fundamentally macguffins. We could be talking about Naga or Kyrian the same way, and the way the lore portrays them is somewhat grander than they actually are. At the end of the day, they're still just NPCs that have a wide range of power, and are fallible to knives and blunt objects as the rest of us. Making them playable simply presents them in a more tangible, interactive way.

I'm just really not convinced they should. I'm not convinced that it's the sort of thing that can be responsibly added to the game without things spiralling out of control.

I guess I'll just say that I'm more jaded on this considering the lore is meaningless to me at this point, since Warlords has seemingly undone all the relevant lore of Chronicles and made Demons nigh-immortal and alternate universes totally savvy. It's already spiralled out of control to me, so to enjoy WoW today is to embrace chaos. That's how I see it.

If it were up to me, Druids would be Night Elf only, there'd be 24+ classes in the game instead of 36+ specs, and the racial options would be a much more moderate WC2-era compliable list of choices rather than the mish-mash of blue skin purple skin any-color skin pseudo-humans. Just my two cents.

[TheRevenantHero]

I don't think people would just overwhelmingly play a Dragon class though, just because it's available. I mean it is hella fucking cool I agree but it doesn't subtract from the coolness of the other classes. Realistically, nobody would play it if it simmed poorly, no matter how cool it is.

Your concept of 5 specs based on each of the colors is not very practical, it won't be balanceable and it creates its own problem of whole guilds potentially being Dragon class. That being said, despite Monks being able to Tank Heal and DPS it is not excessively popular.

Turning each spec into Dual Color solves this problem, just make playable Dragons flexible, it would help explain the spec-swapping too.

Here's a 5-second idea for a Cloth-only Dragon class with 3 specs.

Red/Green (Healer): Healing spec that uses a mix of restorative red and green Dragonflame. Thematically, it is like new life flourishing in the carbon-rich ground after a forest fire. A rotation based on the cycle of growing, then burning, then growing from the ashes would be dope.

Blue/Bronze (Healer): Healing spec that uses the time-manipulation magic from both Arcane, as well as Bronze dragon magic, as a damage-reversal-based Healer, in addition to Abjuration skills, like magic shields. We all know how this spec would work, time-travel based healers are so commonly suggested.

Black/Twilight (Ranged DPS): Based on the destructive and firey nature of the Black Dragonflight as well as their Void-corrupted cousins. After N'Zoth's defeat, some of them had their minds cleared by Wrathion with the promise that they, and he himself, will find themselves someday, despite their pasts. Thematically, this spec lands somewhere between Destruction Warlock sans-Fel and Shadow Priest. Lava Tentacles are a must!

There, a class with 2 healing specs and a ranged caster DPS. It doesn't compete with other popular classes and we finally get a new cloth and ranged DPS class for once.

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What does reproduction have to do with whether a race can be playable? Warcraft takes place over like, a decade. Humans could have been sterilized at the end of Cataclysm too and nothing would change.

Making Dragons a Class is ideal because of the fact that they take on Mortal Forms. Race choice becomes the Form choice. It works perfectly within the bounds of WoW game mechanics. Because when they aren't the size of a Flying Mount they look like an ordinary Elf or a Gnome or Tauren, Dragon as a Class means you're locked into Race choice like everyone else.

Dragons don't procreate as much as humans and other races do. And once again, even the idea of dragons being a class is exceptionally dumb because THEY'RE A RACE AND NOT A CLASS. It would be as dumb as hell i suddenly murloc could be a class even though it's a race. It's never going to happen and people should really stop with this ludicrous idea.

[Teriz]

Dragons don't procreate as much as humans and other races do. And once again, even the idea of dragons being a class is exceptionally dumb because THEY'RE A RACE AND NOT A CLASS. It would be as dumb as hell i suddenly murloc could be a class even though it's a race. It's never going to happen and people should really stop with this ludicrous idea.

The only reason this is a consideration is because of Blizzard’s actions over the last few years. Not only do we have several dragon characters like Wrathion in the game, we also have similar characters in HotS who have unique class abilities and functions.

If your goal is to create a class based on dragons using the template from previous expansion classes, doing a dragon class based on Wrathion really makes the most sense. Long time players know who Wrathion and characters like these are. These types of characters have an established relationship with the storyline. And HotS has already shown how you can break these characters down into playable form via Chromie, Alexstraza, and Deathwing.

Sorry but you repeatedly saying “it’s dumb” really isn’t a good counter argument. Blizzard would almost certainly go with something like this over an entirely new concept simply because it’s “cooler” and far more established in the lore.

I mean imagine a WoW expansion with Wrathion on the cover, and Blizzard telling people at Blizzcon 20XX that you can explore Dragon Isles as an actual dragon, and play as a character like Wrathion. It’s a no-brainer.

[shoc]

The only reason this is a consideration is because of Blizzard’s actions over the last few years. Not only do we have several dragon characters like Wrathion in the game, we also have similar characters in HotS who have unique class abilities and functions.

If your goal is to create a class based on dragons using the template from previous expansion classes, doing a dragon class based on Wrathion really makes the most sense. Long time players know who Wrathion and characters like these are. These types of characters have an established relationship with the storyline. And HotS has already shown how you can break these characters down into playable form via Chromie, Alexstraza, and Deathwing.

Sorry but you repeatedly saying “it’s dumb” really isn’t a good counter argument. Blizzard would almost certainly go with something like this over an entirely new concept simply because it’s “cooler” and far more established in the lore.

I mean imagine a WoW expansion with Wrathion on the cover, and Blizzard telling people at Blizzcon 20XX that you can explore Dragon Isles as an actual dragon, and play as a character like Wrathion. It’s a no-brainer.

I feel like, that's always the selling point with new classes, right? You get to play a facsimile of a famous lore character. No surprise then that Dark Ranger is constantly brought up as a class concept because Sylvanas is the best and most popular character in the entire franchise.

Wrath w/ DKs: Hey you can play as Arthas!
MoP w/ Monks: Hey you can play as Chen Stormstout!
Legion w/ DHs: Hey you can play as Illidan!

[TheRevenantHero]

The only reason this is a consideration is because of Blizzard’s actions over the last few years. Not only do we have several dragon characters like Wrathion in the game, we also have similar characters in HotS who have unique class abilities and functions.

If your goal is to create a class based on dragons using the template from previous expansion classes, doing a dragon class based on Wrathion really makes the most sense. Long time players know who Wrathion and characters like these are. These types of characters have an established relationship with the storyline. And HotS has already shown how you can break these characters down into playable form via Chromie, Alexstraza, and Deathwing.

Sorry but you repeatedly saying “it’s dumb” really isn’t a good counter argument. Blizzard would almost certainly go with something like this over an entirely new concept simply because it’s “cooler” and far more established in the lore.

I mean imagine a WoW expansion with Wrathion on the cover, and Blizzard telling people at Blizzcon 20XX that you can explore Dragon Isles as an actual dragon, and play as a character like Wrathion. It’s a no-brainer.

No no. The dumb as fuck idea is making the dragon RACE into a CLASS. Dragon BASED class is one thing. You keep talking about just flat out turning dragons into a class which is really fucking stupid. A dragon based class is something like Dragonsworn. You're still just a human or whatever race but you're imbued with draconic power.

Your idea of flat out turning dragons into a class is utter fucking garbage. You can't turn a race into a class. Get over it already.

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I feel like, that's always the selling point with new classes, right? You get to play a facsimile of a famous lore character. No surprise then that Dark Ranger is constantly brought up as a class concept because Sylvanas is the best and most popular character in the entire franchise.

Wrath w/ DKs: Hey you can play as Arthas!
MoP w/ Monks: Hey you can play as Chen Stormstout!
Legion w/ DHs: Hey you can play as Illidan!

The difference there is that dark rangers aren't a race. Your class would be dark ranger and your race would be blood elf. Teriz is suggesting your class be dragon and your race would ALSO be dragon. Which is exceptionally dumb as an idea.

[Teriz]

I feel like, that's always the selling point with new classes, right? You get to play a facsimile of a famous lore character. No surprise then that Dark Ranger is constantly brought up as a class concept because Sylvanas is the best and most popular character in the entire franchise.

Wrath w/ DKs: Hey you can play as Arthas!
MoP w/ Monks: Hey you can play as Chen Stormstout!
Legion w/ DHs: Hey you can play as Illidan!

Yep, and with "Dragonsworn" it's Wrathion and with Tinkers, it's Gazlowe. That actually makes sense because the Wrathion based class would obviously be a hero class, while the Tinker class would be a base class like Monks.

[jellmoo]

Snip

Apologies for not going point by point, but I'm realizing that I'm rambling way too much and pretty much repeating myself within the same post. Sorry about that. I'll try and summarize my thoughts a bit since I feel I've done a poor job of it thus far:

I don't find that there's a massive mechanical or lore reason not to include Dragons as a playable option. I think that there are Lore issues that would need to be addressed (such as the sterility of Dragons) but that is easily taken care of as the lore is entirely malleable. This is Blizzard's sandbox to play in and they can craft the story they want to. This is why I feel that just about any class concept is viable so long as Blizzard likes it.

Mechanically it may be challenging, but I certainly imagine Blizzard can do even if they have to resort to backend trickery. (It's possible that the class/race system is hardcoded and that game side the character would have to be thought of as a race/class. So a playable Dragon would have to literally be a Blood Elf (race) who is a Dragon (class) in order for the game to allow it).

What I worry about is the health of the game. Is this a line that once crossed cannot be uncrossed? For me, Dragons are insanely powerful creatures. Others argue that they aren't and I get that. But I think what we have is a narrative that is in conflict with what we see and do in game. I freely admit I'm not the biggest Lore guy. I love the story of the game (well, mostly) so I follow along, but I don't study every snippet. I don't look up NPCs and find out every backstory or delve into every nook and cranny the way some posters do. I look at the narrative as a whole. That narrative, for me, is saying that Dragons are an insanely powerful and ancient race that have been tasked with the protection of Azeroth. And while obviously not every Dragon is an Aspect, they are still incredibly mighty creatures. The game itself however, does not always reflect this. We faceroll Dragons all the time. Some zones are littered with the things that put up no more of a fight than a Kobold, Bear or mechanical Chicken would. To me, this is disambiguation of sorts between gameplay and lore. What I mean is that the game is tossing something cool for us to fight, but it's not necessarily a lore based event.

Now I freely admit that this is heavily subjective on part. It's cannot possibly not be. It's my opinion and I'll own that, not can I speak for other people. We all have things we want or don't want in the game (I'd love to have a playable tech class but I desperately don't want this game to turn into Robotech, for example). But I do think this takes a small step past that because it alters a few things on a fundamental level.

1 - We're adding in a piece of power creep. This feels like an anime trope where every season a brand new, more powerful enemy shows up, and our hero needs to find some brand new previously unheard of level of power to fight it. This isn't a mechanical thing, I don't expect a playable Dragon to be more powerful than anything else, but it's a perception thing. Does the next thing after Dragons need to follow suit? will players be disappointed if after Dragons they get something way more mundane?

2 - How is the narrative changed? By and large, Dragons are present in the story of WoW as either antagonists or as "advisors". Even when they play a central role, it's still a situation where the players do the bulk of the work. How does the narrative shift with playable Dragons? For example: How are problems solved on a story telling level when Anduin has a small army of dragons he can send at something? Every time there's a conflict, does Blizzard have to devise a way to negate the effect that a group of Dragons would have just to make the story play out?

3 - Is this an example of wish fulfillment gone too far? There's no denying that playing a Dragon is super cool. Dragon mounts are popular, Dragon themes are popular, Dragon everything is popular. But is this a step too far for players to get something exactly that they want and creates diminishing returns on excitement afterwards? As mentioned, D&D has Dragonborn as a fun and exciting option which is great. But they don't out and out give you the option to play an actual dragon, and that's a game that is a lot more sandboxy than WoW is. It's a taste of the Dragon style without the whole thing.

Funnily enough, even after wanting to be more concise I find myself struggling to articulate my points in a meaningful way. Ultimately I worry about the health of the game, which to be fair is something I've done for a while. I find that a lot of the wonder of the game has dripper away over the years and I worry that it's something that's very hard to get back. I still remember the first time I saw a Dragon in game and the crazy "oh shit!" moment it was. I think that pulling away from that and moments like those isn't the best direction for a game this old. I worry that the mystery and delight is leaving it and replacing itself with grinds and numbers.

[TheRevenantHero]

Apologies for not going point by point, but I'm realizing that I'm rambling way too much and pretty much repeating myself within the same post. Sorry about that. I'll try and summarize my thoughts a bit since I feel I've done a poor job of it thus far:

I don't find that there's a massive mechanical or lore reason not to include Dragons as a playable option. I think that there are Lore issues that would need to be addressed (such as the sterility of Dragons) but that is easily taken care of as the lore is entirely malleable. This is Blizzard's sandbox to play in and they can craft the story they want to. This is why I feel that just about any class concept is viable so long as Blizzard likes it.

Mechanically it may be challenging, but I certainly imagine Blizzard can do even if they have to resort to backend trickery. (It's possible that the class/race system is hardcoded and that game side the character would have to be thought of as a race/class. So a playable Dragon would have to literally be a Blood Elf (race) who is a Dragon (class) in order for the game to allow it).

What I worry about is the health of the game. Is this a line that once crossed cannot be uncrossed? For me, Dragons are insanely powerful creatures. Others argue that they aren't and I get that. But I think what we have is a narrative that is in conflict with what we see and do in game. I freely admit I'm not the biggest Lore guy. I love the story of the game (well, mostly) so I follow along, but I don't study every snippet. I don't look up NPCs and find out every backstory or delve into every nook and cranny the way some posters do. I look at the narrative as a whole. That narrative, for me, is saying that Dragons are an insanely powerful and ancient race that have been tasked with the protection of Azeroth. And while obviously not every Dragon is an Aspect, they are still incredibly mighty creatures. The game itself however, does not always reflect this. We faceroll Dragons all the time. Some zones are littered with the things that put up no more of a fight than a Kobold, Bear or mechanical Chicken would. To me, this is disambiguation of sorts between gameplay and lore. What I mean is that the game is tossing something cool for us to fight, but it's not necessarily a lore based event.

Now I freely admit that this is heavily subjective on part. It's cannot possibly not be. It's my opinion and I'll own that, not can I speak for other people. We all have things we want or don't want in the game (I'd love to have a playable tech class but I desperately don't want this game to turn into Robotech, for example). But I do think this takes a small step past that because it alters a few things on a fundamental level.

1 - We're adding in a piece of power creep. This feels like an anime trope where every season a brand new, more powerful enemy shows up, and our hero needs to find some brand new previously unheard of level of power to fight it. This isn't a mechanical thing, I don't expect a playable Dragon to be more powerful than anything else, but it's a perception thing. Does the next thing after Dragons need to follow suit? will players be disappointed if after Dragons they get something way more mundane?

2 - How is the narrative changed? By and large, Dragons are present in the story of WoW as either antagonists or as "advisors". Even when they play a central role, it's still a situation where the players do the bulk of the work. How does the narrative shift with playable Dragons? For example: How are problems solved on a story telling level when Anduin has a small army of dragons he can send at something? Every time there's a conflict, does Blizzard have to devise a way to negate the effect that a group of Dragons would have just to make the story play out?

3 - Is this an example of wish fulfillment gone too far? There's no denying that playing a Dragon is super cool. Dragon mounts are popular, Dragon themes are popular, Dragon everything is popular. But is this a step too far for players to get something exactly that they want and creates diminishing returns on excitement afterwards? As mentioned, D&D has Dragonborn as a fun and exciting option which is great. But they don't out and out give you the option to play an actual dragon, and that's a game that is a lot more sandboxy than WoW is. It's a taste of the Dragon style without the whole thing.

Funnily enough, even after wanting to be more concise I find myself struggling to articulate my points in a meaningful way. Ultimately I worry about the health of the game, which to be fair is something I've done for a while. I find that a lot of the wonder of the game has dripper away over the years and I worry that it's something that's very hard to get back. I still remember the first time I saw a Dragon in game and the crazy "oh shit!" moment it was. I think that pulling away from that and moments like those isn't the best direction for a game this old. I worry that the mystery and delight is leaving it and replacing itself with grinds and numbers.

Dragons are sterile. There's more quel'dorei than there are dragons and the quel'dorei are damn near extinct. Dragons will never and should never be playable as a race.

[Teriz]

Dragons are sterile. There's more quel'dorei than there are dragons and the quel'dorei are damn near extinct. Dragons will never and should never be playable as a race.

Didn't they discover a massive cache of Twilight dragon eggs beneath Grim Batol in BFA?

[Triceron]

Dragons are sterile. There's more quel'dorei than there are dragons and the quel'dorei are damn near extinct. Dragons will never and should never be playable as a race.

Dragon Isles says hello.

And the game has never been representative of player numbers. Sure, we can say Dragons are sterile and they are few in number. Well, you already pointed out that Quel'dorei are low in number so that would make Void Elves even lower in number since they are a mere fraction of the remaining Quel'dorei, and they are absolutely playable.

Or you could look at how Demon Hunters were trained by Illidan specifically, and many of their number don't actually survive the training process. All of them are either Kal'dorei or Sin'dorei, and they are also very few in number. The entire class is loosely connected through individuals of their faction, many of whom work alone and not with the Alliance or Horde. This class is still made playable.

A Draconic based Class that allows you to actually play as a Dragon would be treated in the exact same way. These are classes that aren't easily replenished, but they are highly regarded as the elite-of-the-elite by being designated as Hero classes. That's how they would fit into the works. Being a Dragon would mean you're a one-in-a-million Hero.

As for being sterile, any new lore associated to the Dragon Isles could easily fix that, or they could completely leave it and let the player Dragon class be super special just like the Illidari aren't just trainees, you are specifically playing the elite warriors that survived Illidan's training.

1 - We're adding in a piece of power creep.

This is a good point to bring up. I think the issue of power creep, at least in a lore sense, would need to be addressed if Dragons become playable. No other game really has this in place where you can actually play as a Dragon, usually it's one step away like a Dragon descendent or a servant of a Dragon, not a Dragon itself. What I think is acceptable though is if Blizzard defines why a Dragon would suddenly be playable, and why its power would be kept in check and not just be Aspect-levels of OP. And frankly, I'm absolutely confident that Blizzard can do that, because they've proven a million billion times that they can do whatever they want with the lore and people will eat it up.

I understand the concern over the power gap between common races and this one super special race/class combo, but at the same time I think we already have this precedent set with Death Knights a long time ago and people have been fully accepting of an ubermensch of unbridled undeath despite how much they eclipse every class that has come before it.

Whatever comes next *could* be absolutely mundane, but it doesn't mean it's not warranted either. Think of it this way - if we have Dragons now and Naga or Ethereal later, would people be let down for having races they've always wanted to play? I see it similarly to Blizzard releasing heroes for HOTS. Just because they released Deathwing doesn't mean everything that comes after is unwarranted, even if they have been following up with completely new invented characters like Qhira or absolute joke cameos like Hogger. People will get over those first impressions of 'it's not as amazing as Deathwing' once they give it a try. Or, they simply don't give it a try and the class/race continues to be obscure, just as Monks and Mechagnomes seemingly hit the bottom of the barrel.

Either way, having an option is better than not having an option, and while I acknowledge the concern, I think the game has already gone over these very issues and the community has survived the Pandaren hate of 2010 and the outcries of Demon Hunters being too shallow and total fad-of-the-month classes. There's a demographic for each, and I don't think Dragons will automatically replace everything that comes before and after. Personally, even though I am making an argument for Dragons, it will never replace my Night Elf Druid main (if I chose to go back to WoW).

2 - How is the narrative changed?

Same way Death Knights work with the Scourge and Lich King still around. We introduce an independant faction (let's say working under Wrathion) and that faction stays independent of the Horde and Alliance while its members actively choose sides to work with. Story-wise, the Dragon faction is its own thing, and every Dragon would be independent just like every Illidari warrior is. They choose to serve, and are not bound to the will of the Alliance or Horde. Their loyalty is offered in service, not bound by oath or duty.

3 - Is this an example of wish fulfillment gone too far?

Are we serious about wish fulfillment gone too far when the entire game is built on a standard of Rule of Cool? Just a couple expansions ago everyone had Uber Legendary Artifact weapons and every paladin was wielding an Ashbringer. An expansion before that we travelled through time and space just to see Grom Hellscream and Gul'dan again.

Warcraft doesn't have the same limitations that other RPGs have when it comes to what is playable. Our heroes are representative of what was available in Warcraft 3, and while a major focus of that has been limited to mortal humanoids, I don't see the problem with extending that now that mortals have practically reached god-like status at one point or another.

While I agree that making a player a Dragon would reflect oddly on all Dragons in the world, the simplest way to encapsulate the idea is to present a *specific group* of Dragons that are playable that are 100% Dragons, but not the same ones that are already out in the world that we know of and see today. It'd be similar to how the Ebon Hold Death Knights aren't representative of every Death Knight out in the open; they're specifically the Ebon Hand brand of Death Knights of Acherus. We have a direct association to this specific generation of DK.

Our player characters may be representative of what Dragons are capable of, but not to the power of an ancient dragon or to the level of expertise as a dedicated servant of the Blue Dragonflight; since we may simply be eggs born into Wrathion's faction of Dragonsworn. And even if I disagree with Teriz on many things, I do think there is value in revisiting a Chromatic Dragonflight story seed if we're going to introduce Dragons capable of using all dragonflight powers; otherwise the class makes no sense being able to swap Dragonflight powers/specs if they are simply a Blue or Red or Bronze Dragon. There's a lot to unpack, and many of these issues can not be addressed if this race/class as a typical Red Dragon serving under Alexstrasza. What we need is a new brand of Dragon dedicated to ushering in the new class, much like the DK's of the Ebon Hand were a new brand of Death Knight that are not directly associated to the corrupted Human only Paladins that followed Arthas into Northrend.

Wrathion stealing a bunch of eggs from different dragonflights and using Titan machinery to accelerate their growth (much in the same vein of his own origin) as well as empowering them with each others abilities would explain it all. Sterile Dragons? Wrathion shenanigans. Access to all Dragon powers? Titan Tech macguffin. Granted power that is above-mortal but not completely comparable to a pure-blood Dragonflight? Easily implemented as a side effect of gaining access to other Dragonflight abilities; each Dragon shares a portion of their power to the others and gains a portion back, so a 'Dragonsworn's Life magic is 1/5th of a dedicated Red Dragon, but they have access to all other powers of Time, Dream, Earth and Magic to make up for the loss. This experiment is also successful because power is being shared instead of how Nefarion's Chromatic tried to crunch the full power of each Dragonflight into one vessel. The experiment would only work on eggs, so you can't just turn any ol' dragon out in the world into this new brand of Dragon, and the experiment itself can be as limited or plentiful as the lore needs it to be. That's how it can all be explained.

We already have this seeded in the lore because the Aspects were simply different colored primordial Proto-Drakes that ended up being empowered by the Titans. The transfer of magical power has been documented in many stories now, and a playable Dragon Class/Race would just be the next step in what we've already encountered for years. It wouldn't be the new standard for all Dragons, but definitely for the Black Dragon tradition of trying to create the 'ultimate dragonflight'. Nefarion's Chromatic, Sintharia's Twilight, and now Wrathion's own Titan-based creation.

[Wangming]

I want geography class. Or maybe history.

[shoc]

If the Dragon story is so dead due to their infertility and small population then I guess Dragon Isles is never going to happen. Unless we get there and there are no Dragons, in which case that is just blatant false advertising.

It doesn't really matter if what we get is playable Dragons, or a normie mortal that was granted Dragonsworn powers. At the end of the day, it's just a Dragon-themed class with all the gameplay that comes with it.

I also disagree that Dragons are somehow in a different power class than adventurers. Not that Dragons are not powerful, but Adventurers are overpowered as hell. The average adventurer has slain countless dragons, so much so that they created a kill-point system around it to distribute loot more efficiently. Azeroth's heroes have literally Kamehameha'd an Old God out of existence, we have killed more Gods than Kratos has. The power creep ship has sailed and it's long gone, we just power down at the convenience of the story. Like how we're fighting Argus, a Titan, one minute and the next we're getting paid to clear out pirates dens in Kul Tiras. Like.. what?

[TheRevenantHero]

Dragon Isles says hello.

And the game has never been representative of player numbers. Sure, we can say Dragons are sterile and they are few in number. Well, you already pointed out that Quel'dorei are low in number so that would make Void Elves even lower in number since they are a mere fraction of the remaining Quel'dorei, and they are absolutely playable.

Or you could look at how Demon Hunters were trained by Illidan specifically, and many of their number don't actually survive the training process. All of them are either Kal'dorei or Sin'dorei, and they are also very few in number. The entire class is loosely connected through individuals of their faction, many of whom work alone and not with the Alliance or Horde. This class is still made playable.

A Draconic based Class that allows you to actually play as a Dragon would be treated in the exact same way. These are classes that aren't easily replenished, but they are highly regarded as the elite-of-the-elite by being designated as Hero classes. That's how they would fit into the works. Being a Dragon would mean you're a one-in-a-million Hero.

As for being sterile, any new lore associated to the Dragon Isles could easily fix that, or they could completely leave it and let the player Dragon class be super special just like the Illidari aren't just trainees, you are specifically playing the elite warriors that survived Illidan's training.



This is a good point to bring up. I think the issue of power creep, at least in a lore sense, would need to be addressed if Dragons become playable. No other game really has this in place where you can actually play as a Dragon, usually it's one step away like a Dragon descendent or a servant of a Dragon, not a Dragon itself. What I think is acceptable though is if Blizzard defines why a Dragon would suddenly be playable, and why its power would be kept in check and not just be Aspect-levels of OP. And frankly, I'm absolutely confident that Blizzard can do that, because they've proven a million billion times that they can do whatever they want with the lore and people will eat it up.

I understand the concern over the power gap between common races and this one super special race/class combo, but at the same time I think we already have this precedent set with Death Knights a long time ago and people have been fully accepting of an ubermensch of unbridled undeath despite how much they eclipse every class that has come before it.

Whatever comes next *could* be absolutely mundane, but it doesn't mean it's not warranted either. Think of it this way - if we have Dragons now and Naga or Ethereal later, would people be let down for having races they've always wanted to play? I see it similarly to Blizzard releasing heroes for HOTS. Just because they released Deathwing doesn't mean everything that comes after is unwarranted, even if they have been following up with completely new invented characters like Qhira or absolute joke cameos like Hogger. People will get over those first impressions of 'it's not as amazing as Deathwing' once they give it a try. Or, they simply don't give it a try and the class/race continues to be obscure, just as Monks and Mechagnomes seemingly hit the bottom of the barrel.

Either way, having an option is better than not having an option, and while I acknowledge the concern, I think the game has already gone over these very issues and the community has survived the Pandaren hate of 2010 and the outcries of Demon Hunters being too shallow and total fad-of-the-month classes. There's a demographic for each, and I don't think Dragons will automatically replace everything that comes before and after. Personally, even though I am making an argument for Dragons, it will never replace my Night Elf Druid main (if I chose to go back to WoW).



Same way Death Knights work with the Scourge and Lich King still around. We introduce an independant faction (let's say working under Wrathion) and that faction stays independent of the Horde and Alliance while its members actively choose sides to work with. Story-wise, the Dragon faction is its own thing, and every Dragon would be independent just like every Illidari warrior is. They choose to serve, and are not bound to the will of the Alliance or Horde. Their loyalty is offered in service, not bound by oath or duty.



Are we serious about wish fulfillment gone too far when the entire game is built on a standard of Rule of Cool? Just a couple expansions ago everyone had Uber Legendary Artifact weapons and every paladin was wielding an Ashbringer. An expansion before that we travelled through time and space just to see Grom Hellscream and Gul'dan again.

Warcraft doesn't have the same limitations that other RPGs have when it comes to what is playable. Our heroes are representative of what was available in Warcraft 3, and while a major focus of that has been limited to mortal humanoids, I don't see the problem with extending that now that mortals have practically reached god-like status at one point or another.

While I agree that making a player a Dragon would reflect oddly on all Dragons in the world, the simplest way to encapsulate the idea is to present a *specific group* of Dragons that are playable that are 100% Dragons, but not the same ones that are already out in the world that we know of and see today. It'd be similar to how the Ebon Hold Death Knights aren't representative of every Death Knight out in the open; they're specifically the Ebon Hand brand of Death Knights of Acherus. We have a direct association to this specific generation of DK.

Our player characters may be representative of what Dragons are capable of, but not to the power of an ancient dragon or to the level of expertise as a dedicated servant of the Blue Dragonflight; since we may simply be eggs born into Wrathion's faction of Dragonsworn. And even if I disagree with Teriz on many things, I do think there is value in revisiting a Chromatic Dragonflight story seed if we're going to introduce Dragons capable of using all dragonflight powers; otherwise the class makes no sense being able to swap Dragonflight powers/specs if they are simply a Blue or Red or Bronze Dragon. There's a lot to unpack, and many of these issues can not be addressed if this race/class as a typical Red Dragon serving under Alexstrasza. What we need is a new brand of Dragon dedicated to ushering in the new class, much like the DK's of the Ebon Hand were a new brand of Death Knight that are not directly associated to the corrupted Human only Paladins that followed Arthas into Northrend.

Wrathion stealing a bunch of eggs from different dragonflights and using Titan machinery to accelerate their growth (much in the same vein of his own origin) as well as empowering them with each others abilities would explain it all. Sterile Dragons? Wrathion shenanigans. Access to all Dragon powers? Titan Tech macguffin. Granted power that is above-mortal but not completely comparable to a pure-blood Dragonflight? Easily implemented as a side effect of gaining access to other Dragonflight abilities; each Dragon shares a portion of their power to the others and gains a portion back, so a 'Dragonsworn's Life magic is 1/5th of a dedicated Red Dragon, but they have access to all other powers of Time, Dream, Earth and Magic to make up for the loss. This experiment is also successful because power is being shared instead of how Nefarion's Chromatic tried to crunch the full power of each Dragonflight into one vessel. The experiment would only work on eggs, so you can't just turn any ol' dragon out in the world into this new brand of Dragon, and the experiment itself can be as limited or plentiful as the lore needs it to be. That's how it can all be explained.

We already have this seeded in the lore because the Aspects were simply different colored primordial Proto-Drakes that ended up being empowered by the Titans. The transfer of magical power has been documented in many stories now, and a playable Dragon Class/Race would just be the next step in what we've already encountered for years. It wouldn't be the new standard for all Dragons, but definitely for the Black Dragon tradition of trying to create the 'ultimate dragonflight'. Nefarion's Chromatic, Sintharia's Twilight, and now Wrathion's own Titan-based creation.

Once again, draconic class like dragonsworn is fine. Actively PLAYING as a dragon? That's fucking stupid and would be the death of the fucking game. Hopefully, Blizzard never makes the exceptionally dumb decision of making full blown dragons playable. The idea that Teriz has put forth is your class is dragon and your race is dragon. That's so fucking dumb there are not enough words in the English to describe how stupid it is.

The quel'dorei numbers are small but they're not sterile. I don't know how many are alive but some people theorize maybe around 40k. There's a fraction of that when it comes to dragons and they can't reproduce anymore. As for the Dragon Isles, the original concept stated there are temples to Old Gods there. There has been no lore regarding the Dragon Isles in the game other than Wrathion is looking for them. Based on what Blizzard said it was originally going to be, they are the Dragon Isles in name only.

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't they discover a massive cache of Twilight dragon eggs beneath Grim Batol in BFA?

That cache of eggs was laid by Sinestra before Cataclysm and hadn't hatched yet. After the defeat of Deathwing, all dragons were rendered sterile. Once Azeroth's dragons die, that's it. No more dragons.