Should TBC come with a gold wipe? Why or why not?

[delus]

I think you should either level from scratch or transfer.

[meheez]

ofc not, theres one more reason to play classic

[kranur]

No one here has ever stated that tbc won’t be nor will this prevent people from doing it. The point is to have a set amount of time where all players new and old will have ample time to transition into the economy. Tbc won’t be as bad as classic a month in, it will take way longer than that and if you think it wont then you just don’t understand what the issue was with classic.

Starting day one with a broken economy puts the majority of players way behind and it will keep them behind. It will only encourage more people to buy gold day one.

There is a way .. classic is currently live you know. It's not like it will be a special group only that would be able to transfer. Want to start at 60 and with professions and maybe gold ... classic is there for you ... you know .. the same content that you'll play through before Outland anyway.

[Synical123]

There is a way .. classic is currently live you know. It's not like it will be a special group only that would be able to transfer. Want to start at 60 and with professions and maybe gold ... classic is there for you ... you know .. the same content that you'll play through before Outland anyway.

Once again, the issue isn’t players being level 60 and having gear. It’s gold. I do not understand how you aren’t grasping this.

[varren]

How popular are instanced raw gold farms in TBC? Classic was so inflated due to everyone and their mom knowing about such farms since day 1

[Ten15]

So if they let those with really high levels of gold enter TBC, won't that really diminish the experience for newer players?

[Synical123]

How popular are instanced raw gold farms in TBC? Classic was so inflated due to everyone and their mom knowing about such farms since day 1

Not at all as popular not even close.

Dungeons are WAY more linear with ‘pack’ pulls so you can’t just run in and go where you please like DM:E for example.

Aoe caps and just the size of the instances alone make aoe grinding basically impossible.

The only real dungeon farm is one of the TK dungeons where rogues can farm a certain chest over and over but the gold is nowhere even near what people are pulling today.

Think of dungeons like BRD or DME. You have so much room and little mobs to work with to grind endlessly.

Then think of instances in tbc. Almost all start with a narrow hallway where you are met with packs of elite mobs. You aren’t walking through them to do anything without groups.

[deenman]

You seem to think that 1) There is going to be a TBC classic; and 2) that they are going to allow transfers. What leads you to both of these conclusions?

Not to mention that you can have a 'gold wipe' anytime you want... of your own gold. And I'm still waiting on a rational reason why you believe you deserve to destroy anyone else's work.

they wouldnt have sent that survey if tbc wasnt coming,and for the second part,i think its fair to say that transfers will be a guarantee because blizz has been adamant on keeping the experience authentic,so a classic to tbc progression would be the only option in line with that

[meowfurion]

You joking? A gold wipe is a gold sellers worse nightmare. They lose all the illegal gold they have stock piled over multiple servers, people are way less to spend money on gold because the price per gold would be insanely high so no one buys, and now you have no gold to carry your way through while you have to level your characters all across every server as well as find your new farming spot.

If anything hurts gold sellers MORE it’s a gold wipe.

- - - Updated - - -



I just posted the poll to see what people wanted to say. There are plenty of arguments throughout this entire thread for both sides.

- - - Updated - - -



Instead of him having the last word, I'll give it to you. It's not an issue of what other people have more than others. It's an issue of inflation server wide on the effect it will have on EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. Trust me, if inflation happened in real life you wouldn't be saying "How much money I have doesn't effect you so just pay your $50 for your loaf of bread on a $7 minimum wage and shut up.

Whether you want to accept it or not, the amount of gold server wide effects everybody. Period.

I'll accept your economic advice when you learn the difference between affect and effect.

And I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but the real world and virtual non existent worlds don't have remotely the same economies or engines behind them.

[Kralljin]

I don't want to be too harsh, but if a guild requires enchants and consumables and does not have systems in place to help provide those to its raiders, that sounds like an awful guild. This sounds like a guild in which everyone is working towards their own ends rather than one looking to do content together, which sounds awful.

No, it's just individual responsibility.
In my 15 years of playing this game i have not encountered a guild where both enchants and consumables are entirely supplied by the guild unless there was some extremely efficient consumable such as Feasts or Cauldrons.

So, to me it sounds more like something you project onto everyone else.

> Devilsaur was not BiS, but this is irrelevant. All it means is that more will be added to the market.

Oh no, i forgot to add pre raid.

> Leather can only be gathered by skinners, but anyone can profit from the farm. Participants are paid a cut during sale.

Yes and you need to involve a lot more people when it comes to primals, who all want a cut.

> If you did not like Devilsaur prices, you would go to Un'goro and you would either be killed by cross-faction hit squads or would be unable to get the tap as groups would already be setup at the spawn locations.

Being blissfully ignorant of the fact that most people don't even attempt to do this because they're being filtered by not having skinning or see it as inefficient to farm it themselves, because Un'goro is a godawful location, you'd need to find them and kill them yourself.

What you face when going for Devilsaur was just a fraction what you will face when attempting to control primals.

Not everyone needs it, but everyone can profit off of it. This seems to be the disconnect.

No, the disconnect is that you ignore the circumstances that make it far easier to control Devilsaur leather as opposed to Primals.

First, the WoW community won't rise up in anger and "pile up on [them]", regardless of what they do. The masses will go to the forums and cry. This is what WoW players have always done and will always do, and it has never been effective at causing change. Keep in mind, this is the same community that when the high end guilds began having members make alt accounts, sit in Silithus, and spam report people to make sure they couldn't get the Scepter, just sat on the forums and cried until daddy Blizzard did something. There were no community repercussions for them, just forum salt and Blizzard addressing the abuse of a small minority of the players who participated.

Check out those stories.

https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...ar-on-gandling
https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...-on-wyrmthalak
https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...vious-griefing

Spoiler alert:
None of the "bad" people succeeded in any story, nor did Blizzard intervene (outside of overturning automated bans).

Also, abusing automated bans to snipe a guild's scarab Lord candidate is a different story than eliminating the competition to farm Fragments by driving them off.
Not to mention some people who abused the feature got their primary account perma banned.

This is something that may work to single out one person and drive them off, not a strategy to deal with loads of people wanting to farm primals.

Secondly, they aren't blocking you from getting BiS, they're selling BiS to you. The fact of the matter is that while hogging spawn locations is a little degenerate, it's totally fair within the context of the game.

If you don't have the gold to pay the farmers, you need to farm it yourself, if some Mafia blocks you from farming, you are shit out of luck.

Again, each spawn location is fairly small and can be dominated by a small group of mages. Whether or not there's multiple spawn locations is irrelevant.

It is relevant because you need to cover a wider area, thus you need to involve more people and pay them, which cuts into your profit.
And because your profit relies on a monopoly, you need to make sure you maintain it all day long.

The only real dungeon farm is one of the TK dungeons where rogues can farm a certain chest over and over but the gold is nowhere even near what people are pulling today.

I think that got fixed midway through TBC, at least WoWpedia says the following:

The Mechanar, among other instances, was once famous for allowing Rogues (and some druids) the opportunity to solo their way to several chests inside the instance, boosting the clever Rogues' economy quite a bit as they didn't need to share the chests with anyone. As a result, chests within instances were removed in patch 2.2.0.

Didn't even realize that all chests have been removed mid TBC from every dungeon already.

[Synical123]

I'll accept your economic advice when you learn the difference between affect and effect.

And I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but the real world and virtual non existent worlds don't have remotely the same economies or engines behind them.

That's a pretty edgy take if I do say so myself. If you have anything that you actually disagree with in my argument, please feel free to let me know. Also, there are some connections between real life and virtual economies my friend. I'm not even sure how you can think both have absolutely no similarities at all.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Oh no, i forgot to add pre raid.

The only difference between items like Devilsaur Leather and Primals is that one market will be more active than another. Whether or not it is BiS or preraid BiS is inconsequential so long as it is accessible through the market.

Being blissfully ignorant of the fact that most people don't even attempt to do this because they're being filtered by not having skinning or see it as inefficient to farm it themselves, because Un'goro is a godawful location, you'd need to find them and kill them yourself.

Players didn't involve themselves for the same reason they didn't do any other efficient farms in Classic: because they're lazy. Hiding behind the idea that "only skinners are the competition," when groups were not exclusively skinners, is silly.

Check out those stories.

https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...ar-on-gandling
https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...-on-wyrmthalak
https://classic.wowhead.com/news=317...vious-griefing

Fair enough, I said the community didn't do anything meaningful, but the top guilds on the servers did; however, these are the sorts of guilds, those who both made massive contributions to the War Effort and had planned for Scarab Lord, that I've been saying will actively sell surplus gold to gold sellers and have the ability to force out competition.

If you don't have the gold to pay the farmers, you need to farm it yourself, if some Mafia blocks you from farming, you are shit out of luck.

And the people who can't afford it are likely not in a position to put any kind of pressure on these farming groups. Pressure would have to come from large, influential guilds on the server, which I doubt will happen so long as their members can profit.

It is relevant because you need to cover a wider area, thus you need to involve more people and pay them, which cuts into your profit.
And because your profit relies on a monopoly, you need to make sure you maintain it all day long.

This is like saying no company would ever open up a remote office, because employees would cut into their profits. The purpose of having more people working for you is because your profits will increase, and they will do this until they hit some critical mass where the diminishing returns of having people work for them makes it unprofitable.

Again, these areas are spread out, but the mobs within the area can be locked down by small groups, making whether or not the individual areas are spread out irrelevant.

[Kralljin]

Hiding behind the idea that "only skinners are the competition," when groups were not exclusively skinners, is silly.

It's absolutely not, because the hassle to farm it yourself is just way too much for most people where they simply are more efficient to farm the gold rather than the mats directly, whether people have a monopoly on it or not.

In TBC, farming primals for one of the primary goldfarming methods for people without a gathering profession.
Unlike Devilsaur, which is by far just one of many goldfarming strategies.

And the people who can't afford it are likely not in a position to put any kind of pressure on these farming groups. Pressure would have to come from large, influential guilds on the server, which I doubt will happen so long as their members can profit.

They are numerous enough that you also need to fight them off.

Again, driving off a lone hunter that wants to solo some Devilsaur is one thing, fighting off 5-10 people trying to contest your spot is another.

and they will do this until they hit some critical mass where the diminishing returns of having people work for them makes it unprofitable.

Yes and this is precisely what i predict will happen, because your profit is massively reliant on keeping the monopoly, which requires a lot more people to maintain it.

Honestly, this debate has gone long enough and considering you seem that deadset that this will a common thing in TBC, i don't think this is going anywhere.
This *might* happen on some small server with a handful of extremely dedicated players, but not on large servers where you need to fight off hordes of player, over multiple farmspots, from varying factions and across different layers.

[Synical123]

.

I think that got fixed midway through TBC, at least WoWpedia says the following:

Didn't even realize that all chests have been removed mid TBC from every dungeon already.

Well TiL. I just remember this being an issue I honestly never remembered it being removed. well that’s a good thing tbh helps our point even more.

[roboscorcher]

The problem with this is that you're putting the burden of proving the case onto the side which has nothing to prove. The sides aren't equal in validity, as only one is arguing for the removal of hundreds, in some cases thousands, of hours of progress by players to deal with an issue that will return shortly after the TBC launch, regardless of wipe. It's on players to adequately make the case that gold should be removed, and there are compelling arguments for considering doing so, unfortunately even the base cases have the gains being so short term it's essentially removing player progress for no reason.

Honestly, at this point, they should just launch some TBC servers that allow gold to transfer over, and other servers that don't.

[Synical123]

Now with nax released, the gold issue is REALLY showing its true colors here.

Consumables for nax alone is costing most guilds 40k+ gold A NIGHT. It’s a gold sellers heaven right now, and it needs taken care of. This is absolutely insane, I can’t see why anyone would even humor the idea of bringing this amount in day one.

[Keterna]

To be honest, removing golds at TBC launch would exacerbate the issue of raid logging on Classic. I don't think this is a good bet.

[Synical123]

To be honest, removing golds at TBC launch would exacerbate the issue of raid logging on Classic. I don't think this is a good bet.

How on earth would this happen

[Thokri]

I might try tbc classic for while if they make fresh servers where transfering is no possible but for 1-58 you can have optional exp buff. For some new I think it would be better to start from start without buff.
Of course this is only that hey give us somewhat "release" version. Some dungeons actually being harder, long prequests and some slight balancing to compensate that people know everything and are mixmaxed with all possible buffs.

Yes you would lose your tf and other good items that are still very good at 70 but I think it would make game better,

Or add to servers, One where you can transfer all from previous classic and then proceed to one shot everything in couple first day on patch before expansion where everything is on catch-up mode.

[Hinastorm]

To be honest, removing golds at TBC launch would exacerbate the issue of raid logging on Classic. I don't think this is a good bet.

Huh? It's the exact opposite for anyone with gold. A wipe gives everyone alot to do.

With no gold wipe tons of people are going to buy half their slots in BiS crafted gear the first week. And all the usual suspects are going to corner the needed markets surrounding that. I'm saying this as one of them, i'm sitting on 16k plus tons and tons of materials that are going to skyrocket in price.

I'm gonna be instantly rich just because I planned ahead a little. It frankly sounds kinda boring. I'll never have to do anything for gold past the first couple weeks.