Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Varodoc]

What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

This is what happens?

Are they retarded (Jaina, Thrall, Sylvanas, Bolvar, I assume this is the "Bland Gang" )

So are they stupid?

[Vakir]

Of course they're stupid. Everyone around Varian and Garrosh in Wrath, and Sylvanas and Anduin in the last 2-3 expansions, has to drop multiple IQ points to let the story happen.

[Arcinatoss]

I thought it was canon now that most big name characters and the champion is suffering from severe retardation, given that we brought the last secret sigil to the jailers basement and all.

[Super Dickmann]

This is what happens?

Are they retarded (Jaina, Thrall, Sylvanas, Bolvar, I assume this is the "Bland Gang" )

So are they stupid?

Yes, they go this entire time talking archly and without contractions of course, about how Anduin will tell them how to resist being dominated without ever once asking the Primus, who invented domination magic and is on the phone at all times. You expect this to work out fine and it's just the plot being retarded as ever, but instead, he doesn't know shit, exactly as a rational person would expect and they go to the Primus to ask him to tell them, which of course he does, since it's his whole field:

Uther: Tell the others what you told me.
Sylvanas: You all have witnessed the Jailer's power firsthand. Without the means to resist his domination, we have no chance against him.

Bolvar: Anduin, can you tell us anything about the Domination that the Jailer put in our way?
Anduin: No, I don't know how to counteract it... I... I'm sorry.

Their retardation is a canonically acknowledged plot point.

[Vakir]

In that context, I can KINDA buy it as "While you were locked up, you see any actual object used or some kind incantation that led to him Dominating you? Did he say anything sensitive about it?" moreso than "Do you have the secret cure, Good Wonderful Sir?"

Still a goofy line.

[Sondrelk]

Anduin's guilt is such a poor plot point because the writing makes repeatedly, painfully clear time after time, scene after scene, that he is God's gift to the world and is capable of everything and is right in every instance. BTS, BFA and SL's main character drama hinges on this. There is no doubt on the narrative's part of his capacity, at best he doubts himself. In this case, what should be done, but won't, is that he's genuinely unable to perform because of what he went through. Not because he's guilty over stabbing people he never heard of, being forced to listen to Sylvanas or being the Devil's mouthpiece, but because anyone who went through this ordeal would be a wreck. Especially someone like Anduin who's weakness, as far as Golden is concerned, has always been that he's brittle and can't deal with his responsibilities when the tire hits the road. The alternate version of Anduin from War Crimes isn't an evil despot or a zealot but a weak man unable to make decisions and fleeing from responsibility.

The ideal version of this is to have him be sidelined for the course of the action while Stormwind and the Alliance are represented by people actually capable of any conflict to speak of. Turalyon as Regent for instance. Anyone who's been in both BFA and SL deserves a vacation to Belize so we're free of those terminal fucking bores for at least one expansion. Ironically for how much of a cancer he's been, Anduin is the only one of the Bland Gang I actually think has a story as a result.

BTS/BfA Anduin was horrible because the plot was clearly at odds with his portrayal. Like when he is constantly shown as wrong, and despite this the story claims he isn't.
The most aggravating when he refuses to push the advantage against the Horde because the Zandalari are a bit sad. Sidestepping both how pushing the advantage is better for both sides, and how attacking Orgrimmar means nothing to the Zandalari in that regard.

SL Anduin is more interesting because his unmoving devotion to the right cause is a great foil to Sylvanas' claims to be this morally complex antihero when her actions clearly are those of a horrible despot. This juxtaposition creating a great dynamic that highlights most of Anduins good traits, while also creating some unintentional/intentional comedy in the best way.

Anduin works best when he is allowed to be an optimist in a bleak world. His big moment in the BfA trailer for instance.
The problem the writing tends to stumble into with him is less that he doesn't face any obstacles. In BfA proper especially he comes across like a bit of a Mary Sue in how his supposed failings never end in tangible problems for him. He is never called upon to make a choice between his morals and his duty in a way that presents a tangible risk to him. He just keeps doing what he thinks is right and the game keeps moving obstacles away to prevent him from facing any repercussions.

[Varodoc]

What we see with Sylvanas Windrunner is the classic situation that happens to any redeemed villain. Since they are no longer "villains" for the sake of the Story, they lose their Villain Plot Armour, which made them 4000 IQ master minds who are ahead of everyone. Remember how Sylvanas was ahead of everyone in BfA (like how she manipulated the entire Alliance at Lordaeron, because they were the Lawful Stupid good guys and she was the villain)? This is NEVER happening again and we see this in the latest patch, where Sylvanas is acting like a retard alongside Jaina, Thrall, and Bolvar, who are certified Good Guys.

A classic, it always happens, you either die a Villain or see yourself become just another Stupid Hero

Now that Sylvanas has been redeemed and has become a good guy, she has been "demoted" in the eyes of the Story, she has lost her Villain Plot Armour and 19999IQ chess brain, and will now act stupidly like most good guys do

I hope Sylvanas enjoys being part of the Bland Gang, but don't worry, she's still not as pathetic as that burger Baine, who actually spent an entire year staring at a wall.

[micwini]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

Interesting. The Obsidian Sanctum, Ruby Sanctum, being part of the dragon isles never occured to me.

[Vakir]

He is never called upon to make a choice between his morals and his duty in a way that presents a tangible risk to him. He just keeps doing what he thinks is right and the game keeps moving obstacles away to prevent him from facing any repercussions.

Thank you for verbalizing it this way, I never really could put it into direct words but this sums it up.

There was that one time he greenlit torture, but the writing never really lingers very long on it to unpack what that means and how it impacts anyone's perceptions of it, least of all himself.

Anduin can continue to make the right moral choices by his own compass, but if he does, he should suffer for it (for his own choices, not because of getting yeeted into the sky by edgy valkyries) or at least experience more pushback.

[Sondrelk]

What we see with Sylvanas Windrunner is the classic situation that happens to any redeemed villain. Since they are no longer "villains" for the sake of the Story, they lose their Villain Plot Armour, which made them 4000 IQ master minds who are ahead of everyone. Remember how Sylvanas was ahead of everyone in BfA (like how she manipulated the entire Alliance at Lordaeron, because they were the Lawful Stupid good guys and she was the villain)? This is NEVER happening again and we see this in the latest patch, where Sylvanas is acting like a retard alongside Jaina, Thrall, and Bolvar, who are certified Good Guys.

A classic, it always happens, you either die a Villain or see yourself become just another Stupid Hero

Now that Sylvanas has been redeemed and has become a good guy, she has been "demoted" in the eyes of the Story, she has lost her Villain Plot Armour and 19999IQ chess brain, and will now act stupidly like most good guys do

I hope Sylvanas enjoys being part of the Bland Gang, but don't worry, she's still not as pathetic as that burger Baine, who actually spent an entire year staring at a wall.

The annoying thing with Sylvanas is that Blizzard could have made it all make sense if they were willing to point out how much of an idiot Sylvanas actually is.

Just have her admit that she was in way over her head and that she isn't actually that intelligent and it all falls neatly into place.

[Raetary]

Interesting. The Obsidian Sanctum, Ruby Sanctum, being part of the dragon isles never occured to me.

It would be a ridiculous revelation, making all the set up of a "long lost dragon homeland" and Wrathions passion project completely pointless.

[Ersula]

Yes, they go this entire time talking archly and without contractions of course, about how Anduin will tell them how to resist being dominated without ever once asking the Primus, who invented domination magic and is on the phone at all times. You expect this to work out fine and it's just the plot being retarded as ever, but instead, he doesn't know shit, exactly as a rational person would expect and they go to the Primus to ask him to tell them, which of course he does, since it's his whole field:

Seems like they were trying to cover up plot holes as they were writing it. They've been implying unlike the weapons, rune magic & necromancy, which Zovaal got from the Primus, the domination magic was all his: Oops except how does that explain the helm? Uh uh Zovaal's power is solely in memories, because he used to be the Arbiter, Domination magic belongs to the Primus. Then why didn't they ask him about it ages ago? No reason we just got to level up our peeboop robot. (I'll give the, if he got the secrets of domination from the Primus, how did he 'dominate' the Primus in the first place, plot hole a pass)


And don't get me started on what they're supposed to do if the next arbiter goes evil too.

[Verdugo]

And who thought adding a weird ass looking lens flair was a good idea?

Are we sure its not coffee stain from someone putting their mug on it?

[Super Dickmann]

In that context, I can KINDA buy it as "While you were locked up, you see any actual object used or some kind incantation that led to him Dominating you? Did he say anything sensitive about it?" moreso than "Do you have the secret cure, Good Wonderful Sir?"

Still a goofy line.

It's obviously not Danuser's intent, given his preferences, but this whole clownshow works a lot better if it's just Sylvanas contriving some bullshit to give an excuse not to have the lady who's brother she MC'd kill her on the spot:

Sylvanas: Anduin may be the key. If we can save him from--
Jaina: You dare speak of freeing him after all you have done?
Uther: Sylvanas held the mourneblade that bound him. Her presence may help free Anduin from the Jailer's grasp.

"You totally need me guys, cause you need Anduin to not be MC'd, right? "

@Varodoc is also right. I defy you to read Sylvanas's lines in the raid and, without knowing they're from her, guess who they're coming from. Melting into the Hivemind is a one-way street. She may have survived in body, but she died in spirit and will now be telling us about love and peace before being punted into turbo hell to save wiggly ghosts.

@Sondrelk

I do think he works vastly better as a character in SL than BFA, in as much as I actually find him enjoyable in his SL scenes whereas I've written a manifesto's worth on how much of a pox he was in BFA. This is largely because he is actually not moping or making poor decisions that others pay the price for and nobody acknowledges but directly suffers personally. It's why 10.0, if it doesn't make the wise move of shelving him and the rest for a very long time, has its success with him hinge on how much they can continue carrying this forward. A lack of personal accountability and cost is the first part of what made Anduin such a narrative nuisance, the other being the lockstep alignment with him that all characters we're meant to like and reality itself do to ensure he's fine.

@Ersula

The Bald Man's powers have always come from him repurposing the Primus's methods. "He's turned his chains into a weapon, etc." But your core point is true. They are going the Highlander 2 route of having the characters point out their own stupidity but its the plot that's making them stupid so there's no points to be gained.

[Ersula]

We knew the Afrasiabi era was going to be rough when the first thing he gave us as head writer was "Brown Eyes Sylvanas"

[Deln]

We knew the Afrasiabi era was going to be rough when the first thing he gave us as head writer was "Brown Eyes Sylvanas"

this just in, Nicole Kidman to play Silvanus in next wow movie!

[Rendruth]

f lic.kr/p/2n4HHK1

[Vakir]

The Alex Afrasiabi that was also Creative Director in WoD and Legion as well, plus didn't draw that?

People shouldn't give more power to a name than necessary when they aren't the sole reason behind the inconsistencies with a character the whole team trashed.

[Ersula]

f lic.kr/p/2n4HHK1

Warlords of Draenor 2

[Ansi]

He probably meant "secret" in the sense that they haven't been tested at all or even seen on PTR.

exactly

could also be tied to storytelling