Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Le Conceptuel]

I kinda get where they were going with "light is bad m'kay" at least in its Legion interpretation. Light is basically a force built on conformity in pursuit of an "almighty good." In essence, the Light (as a cosmic force not as a spell type to be clear) is like the Crusades we see all too often appended to their factions. You get a bunch of faithful, organize them into a grand Army of the Light, and set them off to exterminate the enemy of the week. Enemy of the week being either anything with an eye toward unmaking the Physical Cosmos (The Legion and the Void Lords) or even non-believers (Y'rel's Crusade).

As for the matter of Hegel's Philosophy, I think that largely holds true. Death and Life are in a very natural stasis, Order and Disorder are kept in check via their constant conflict. I think where the idea of "Put the 6 forces into conflict and they will stay in check" fails is with the Light and the Void. And that's because both forces have something of a corruptive element. They don't just fight each other and don't keep each other in check. Both are actively trying to convert the Physical Cosmos over to their side and then use that fact to obliterate the other forces. Essentially they're both what the Jailer wanted to make Death into.

And therein may be our next major threat. The Jailer didn't unbalance the cosmos, it was always unbalanced because of the constant conflict leading to the Light-Void axis going entirely off the rails. Zovaal didn't start the fire, he was just trying to get the Shadowlands to participate in the arms race that the Light and Void had already started.

I'd honestly say that the matter of conformity in pursuit of an ultimate good isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it is probably not strictly correct – at least from a utilitarian standpoint – to simply say that it's wrong to expunge extraordinarily dangerous threats because it may trample freedoms along the way seems rather black-and-white and unrealistic to me. I'd say that adding the additional qualities of imperfection to the Naaru and emphasizing the potential danger of becoming too embroiled in the collectivist mindset is hugely dangerous, especially if you don't know what you're doing entirely (see: the Scarlet Crusade, who weren't exactly enacting the will of the Light, just projecting their own interests over it) is plenty good, but that trying to make the Light into another shade of gray feels awkward when it is by definition what anything "good" is. Philosophically, it seems to elevate personal choice over all other things, which feels incomplete and absolutist.

I think that one important part to why it should be a conflict isn't just that they need to keep one another in check—realistically, if we're looking at it from a Hegelian perspective, it will actually only help elevate every force, since the ensuing sublations will allow the forces to overcome their inherent flaws. Looking at an example from the actual lore, Disorder was made more effective and powerful as a force because it took qualities from Order—that is to say, a Titan conquered it and made it an organized army. The Void and Light regularly take physical qualities of one another with the darkening of Naaru, and this advances the interests of both—the Void extends its corruption, but the Light can often make something good out of it (see: K'ara and M'uru both).

The idea of a massive Cosmic War is interesting, so long as it isn't summarized into a single expansion and is allowed to be an underlying factor controlling the plot from hereon out.

[Makorus]

It might as well not exist is exactly why it's outright terrible. It does nothing for the expansion. It leaves the Jailer the same villain without personality, ambition, goals, backstory. It's empty and devoid of information. As you said, it's excistence adds nothing to the expansion.

That's not what I would consider "outright terrible", but there's not much point arguing with you. Outright terrible to me would be actively hurting the story or the writing.

[BaumanKing]

A cosmos divided? But the Light and the Void are already working together perfectly in the Alliance. At least it's a start.

[username993720]

Why is it when villainous characters get defeated they suddenly seem remorseful?


https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CleverPolit...vfbziTSOc1u-I1


https://m.twitch.tv/videos/141938823...-redirect=true

[Bloodwolf]

??? He just explicitly explained his motive. He found the check and balance system of the six/seven cosmic forces implemented by the First Ones to be flawed and unsustainable, and so he was going to rewrite the universe into a monolithic autocracy where he, as the ruler of death, had complete control of everything.

Well yeah, but he spoke about flawed design before if I remember it correctly. We still don't know why he thinks the original design is flawed and his design or his reign should be better. It's so fucking vague...

[Le Conceptuel]

Digging the train of thought that his final line refers to the 7th force, and not the Void. Alleria and Locus Walker have already shown we're supposed to harness the Void.

I really don't like that. I think it undermines the Cosmic Horror nature of the Void to make it be something you can just harness. "The Void is a tool like any other" was a terrible decision and hopefully they roll back on that a bit.

[Nebron]

"A Cosmos divided will not survive what is to come"

Once more the Void Lords are confirmed to be the ULTIMATE and MOST POWERFUL threat of the Warcraft Cosmos.

Who else would he be talking about, after all?

Who else? Another lame villian with no purpose whatsoever - THE ACTUAL master who stood behind Jailer. Zovaal's death was the last step in his master-plan and now the super-villian can rule the cosmos or some horseshit like that

[Hitei]

It might as well not exist is exactly why it's outright terrible. It does nothing for the expansion. It leaves the Jailer the same villain without personality, ambition, goals, backstory. It's empty and devoid of information. As you said, it's excistence adds nothing to the expansion.

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously. That was the only thing IN the cinemtatic.

[Khaza-R]

They were never outright dominated, but Zovaal did very much had influence over them.

He probably just kept nudging Arthas' mind until he built it.

Eh, that doesn't really fit with Zovaal considering the Lich King failures if he got them to do what he wanted anyway. Just seems like very messy storytelling.

[Vakir]

Why is it when villainous characters get defeated they suddenly seem remorseful?

Cheap pathos from writers who dont know how to build it authentically.

[Le Conceptuel]

Why is it when villainous characters get defeated they suddenly seem remorseful?


https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CleverPolit...vfbziTSOc1u-I1


https://m.twitch.tv/videos/141938823...-redirect=true

In this case it makes more sense. Kil'jaeden has a very close connection to Velen and had a great degree of remorse for his actions as he gradually realized that the Burning Crusade was doomed to failure. This feels like a fitting end, as opposed to the Jailer suddenly acting vaguely sympathetic when he had never done so before, especially since Zovaal's ulterior motive was one which I think is more deserving of a villain going down ranting and raving.

[Landrisser]

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Ironic, lol.

[Khaza-R]

Who else? Another lame villian with no purpose whatsoever - THE ACTUAL master who stood behind Jailer. Zovaal's death was the last step in his master-plan and now the super-villian can rule the cosmos or some horseshit like that

Its literally going to be Amon 2.0.

Let me guess, there's going to be some ancient First One prophecy we find next expansion. And then we have to unite all the cosmic forces into one pure force to defeat the ultimate evil in WarCraft's universe.

[Grimbold21]

Why is it when villainous characters get defeated they suddenly seem remorseful?


https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CleverPolit...vfbziTSOc1u-I1


https://m.twitch.tv/videos/141938823...-redirect=true

Well, Deathwing didn't nor did Garrosh :P

Funny, not an ending cinematic but I was just thinking how the Siege of Orgrimmar cinematic patch was pretty cool.

[Hitei]

Ironic, lol.

This coming from the guy who never has an actual counter-argument.

[Akta]

So I think part of my issue is.. if you guys aren't aware, there is another Sylvanas cinematic in the campaign this week. So she has (at least) two dedicated to her this patch (2.5 with Anduin's), and they are both longer than what we got for the end-of-expansion boss fight. I don't really understand what's going on with the storytelling.

we are still missing the .5 patch

[Nyel]

Who else? Another lame villian with no purpose whatsoever - THE ACTUAL master who stood behind Jailer. Zovaal's death was the last step in his master-plan and now the super-villian can rule the cosmos or some horseshit like that

I'm still baffled that they tried to establish Zovaal as the force behind Arthas and Sargeras. It's hilarious when you think about it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I really don't like that. I think it undermines the Cosmic Horror nature of the Void to make it be something you can just harness. "The Void is a tool like any other" was a terrible decision and hopefully they roll back on that a bit.

I can appreciate "Void is a Tool" but they haven't explained why that Tool was specifically never used successfully yet. Well, outside of the Stormwind Nightmare.

Alleria just kinda snapped her fingers and boom she can control the Void. There was no arc about her struggling with the same thing that plenty of others even just in WoW's lifespan have succumbed to, the whispers and the corruption.

[Marlamin]

So I think part of my issue is.. if you guys aren't aware, there is another Sylvanas cinematic in the campaign this week. So she has (at least) two dedicated to her this patch (2.5 with Anduin's), and they are both longer than what we got for the end-of-expansion boss fight. I don't really understand what's going on with the storytelling.

In-game scene, not a proper cinematic, also not sure if that's the one we know little about or not.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Its literally going to be Amon 2.0.

Let me guess, there's going to be some ancient First One prophecy we find next expansion. And then we have to unite all the cosmic forces into one pure force to defeat the ultimate evil in WarCraft's universe.

Geeze it took me reading that whole post to realize you were talking about Starcraft because I just figured "Yeah I can see the ultimate villain being some depressed First Ones genius who decided the universe had no meaning and created plans that laid undetected for millenia to destroy it to prove his point."