Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nachtigal]

That’s precisely because it’s an asspull and it draws heavily on existing mythology that I think it’s real, but that’s just me

Hey off-topic in regards to what I've quoted.. I saw you mention something quite a few pages back regarding the shield malganis drops being this expansions suramar cloak. What is the cloak youre referring to so I can look at it? Just curious

[Fahrad Wagner]

Also, just because I'm seriously skeptical, here's a full list of my opinions on the different bits in the leak and some of my grievances.

This one I can buy. Chromatus is 100% a fine villain who we've left behind for later use. He doesn't have much personality in the books, but a teensy bit does shine through of a sardonic nature that could be exploited to make him a bit more like a somewhat more serious and bombastic Denathrius or Azshara. If a bit of personality-retconning were involved, he could be a good villain, and if not, that's par for the course for Blizzard anyway. I buy this wholeheartedly.

Right off the bat, we know that Blizzard has held that Cataclysm's zone design was a mistake precisely because the zones were totally disconnected. This directly contradicts developer statements.

I can see this. Although I doubt we'll see totally disconnected zones again, I do think it is possible the expansion could be half-Dragon Isles, half-Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas. This isn't too hard to believe.

No. You would have to be insane to buy this. It is a waste of resources for terrible payoff. You wouldn't get nearly as much utility out of these classes, would get far more to do in the way of, say, tier set design and whathaveyou. It would be a complete waste of time and resources. Also, we've never had a class that wasn't explicitly a major selling point that was connected strongly to the themes of the expansion.

"Look! We have four half-baked classes" won't sell as much as "look at the cool new, singular, consistent thing we have that we can easily put on the front of a box to advertise the theme of the expansion!" Death Knights, Monks and Demon Hunters are a blatant advertisement of the themes of the expansion that fit into the world and the lore very easily whilst also bringing something permanent and interesting from the expansion that absolutely and strongly sells their place in the world. None of these classes do that.

I could see this, but I doubt it'll just be some kind of drop-down menu. It would have to be something like Allied Races with an actual questline or prerequisites.

Plausible. I could see player housing eventually happening as a Hail Mary, and Carpentery and Logging would make some sense in connection to this, giving one of the few reasons a new profession would ever be added a good reason to exist.

Maybe, assuming a strong connection to Lordaeron. I would normally say it's completely impossible for us to have the same city three times, but in the instance of a connection to Lordaeron it is the only neutral city that could exist there, and if the Dragon Isles are flying near Lordearon, it does give us a feasible access point to both.

Unclear. Too little data at this rate to confirm or deny. We don't have much in the way of understanding of the long-term plans—it could be that the Shadowlands squish was just to reduce the numbers so there's an easier time working with them and revamping leveling experiences. I don't think there's enough in the way of info to confirm or deny this.

I really can't see Blizzard doing an expansion with no leveling experience when most players usually just play an expansion, level, and then unsubscribe until the next one's out. This is really infeasible, unwieldy, and poor design.

Feasible. Matches lore location from original design maps. I don't buy them making a faux-continent like this, though. Maybe if it were a mini-continent like Argus that can't really be considered a full continent I would buy it, but the exact description seems awkward and questionable.

I believe it.

New information heavily suggests the former. I've pointed out the issues with the latter.

No. We're not getting Undermine. We have no reason to go there, much less in a Dragon-focused expansion in Lordaeron. Cheap fan-baiting.

No. This makes no sense. It's a random island that sort of appeared in a passing mention in the Warcraft II manual, we're not going to suddenly find an undiscovered race and "proto-demons" there. We also already know that Demons are the "proto-demons". They came into existence with the clash at the beginning of history and/or have been retroactively made in a factory. Not all of them are corrupted mortals.

Feasibly, but all Uld- zones except for Uldum have been instanced thus far. I don't see why we'd get an Elune plot in a fully-underground questing zone.

There are no "Dragon Knights" in lore. Why would Blizzard waste precious resources on something that doesn't exist in lore at all and has no basis?

Maybe, save for the "one specialization" thing.

1. Two classes that can only heal, one of which has no basis in lore and wouldn't sell an expansion easily. No.
2. Why isn't this a Mage specialization or class skin?

Maybe.

Why Shamans? Even assuming this is true, why would there be two Dragon-themed classes? What's the difference between a Dragon Knight and a Dragonsworn? This is superfluous.

1. Wardens have never used holy magic, and have only ever used very minimal arcane magic (blink).
2. Why are Wardens a Demon Hunter skin? They have nothing in common with them other than "agile edgy Elves".
3. Wardens already share several abilities with Rogues, so why not just make them a class skin for Rogues? In fact, why would we even need a class skin for this when you can functionally experience a Warden minus Avatar of Vengeance if you just gave Rogues a transmog with a weapon?
4. Let's assume that the Avatar of Vengeance takes care of metamorphosis. How are the heavily-armored, very much wingless Wardens going to double-jump or glide? Their capes?

Maybe. It's hard to imagine a retcon of our position in the Orders, but I could sort of see it. I can't see picking a certain Order Hall for some classes, though. Why would a Warlock join the Silver Hand, or a Paladin or Warrior the Black Harvest or Uncrowned? I can see some overlap, but not much.

Objectively disproven. I doubt we'd see a schedule slip worth nearly two months.

I agree with most of the above, you’ve made a compelling case against that leak I must admit Although I mainly disagree with two points: micro-classes, as I think they could be real and I am not thrown off by the idea, and Undermine as I could see it in a Dragon expansion because of goblins and their ties to Deathwing, the rest of your points make a lot of sense (especially things such as Warden being a DH skin)

[Revamp Man]

Maybe if the Light invades through the Sunwell as suggested previously in this thread?

i dont see the light doing that

the whisper about a shining surface hiding shadows seems like it would be the void which just got dragon allies in BfA

[Le Conceptuel]

Oh I think the Dragonflight leak is bogus as well. I am just saying that you can easily get to Silvermoon being a hostile questing area.
And yeah, I would have had the dictatorship happen slowly. Maybe the Dragons are presented as a threat in x.0 The Farstriders fail to contain it but the Shining Crusaders save the civilians and win the day. Then the Farstriders somehow fail against a minor scourge attack that destroys a small village in x.1 People lose trust in them. In x.1.5 we have Lor'themar ousted from the city by popular demand and replaced by Yrel or Liadrin. In x.2 we start adventuring in a hostile fascist Silvermoon and in x.3 it is the final raid of the xpac. Silvermoon proper gets a full revamp and turns friendly by x.3.5 while the raid happens in Quel'danas which gets blown up into the next xpac entry area.

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with most of the above, you’ve made a compelling case against that leak I must admit

I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

[Revamp Man]

1. Wardens have never used holy magic, and have only ever used very minimal arcane magic (blink).
2. Why are Wardens a Demon Hunter skin? They have nothing in common with them other than "agile edgy Elves".
3. Wardens already share several abilities with Rogues, so why not just make them a class skin for Rogues? In fact, why would we even need a class skin for this when you can functionally experience a Warden minus Avatar of Vengeance if you just gave Rogues a transmog with a weapon?
4. Let's assume that the Avatar of Vengeance takes care of metamorphosis. How are the heavily-armored, very much wingless Wardens going to double-jump or glide? Their capes?

just this here is where i kinda checked out in the leak itself

talks about class skins but changing damage type is actually a mechanical thing just like the taming of undead

[Wangming]

I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

[Le Conceptuel]

just this here is where i kinda checked out in the leak itself

talks about class skins but changing damage type is actually a mechanical thing just like the taming of undead

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

[Fahrad Wagner]

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

- - - Updated - - -



I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

Oh no worries friend, you’re entitled to your opinion especially one that is as well articulated as yours! I’m still on board for that leak, but at this point it’s more wishful thinking

[Le Conceptuel]

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

Didn't know there was something to do with Dalaran on the PTR. I could definitely imagine that being a new hub in the case of a Lordaeron-based (or Northern Eastern Kingdoms-based) expansion, I confess, even if I find using the same hub three times a little iffy.

[Soulwind]

Right off the bat, we know that Blizzard has held that Cataclysm's zone design was a mistake precisely because the zones were totally disconnected. This directly contradicts developer statements.

I agree with most of your post, and I even agree with the idea behind this too, since I also believe disconnected zones have to be done really well to work, and should be avoided when possible.

But... Shadowlands is a thing, which means Blizzard themselves forgot their own lesson and who knows if they've relearned it.

[Nymrohd]

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

[Revamp Man]

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

with mobs and racials and buffs that deal with X school of damage it would be a bit awkward with things

but yeah wardens are like rogues but with cooler weapons

[Le Conceptuel]

Oh no worries friend, you’re entitled to your opinion especially one that is as well articulated as yours! I’m still on board for that leak, but at this point it’s more wishful thinking

I get you. I think it's easy to see why some people would want it, too—the idea of getting the classes you want with no opportunity cost is great. Up until the issues that inevitably come up later come into play, the leak essentially says "all the classes everybody wants? They're all true!" No disappointment for anybody until you think about the long-term repercussions and the actual gameplay.

It's definitely pretty easy to see where people would want some things to come into play—it really is, in about every way, the perfect compilation of everything everyone wants in a leak, so it's obviously very attractive. I don't buy it, but I see why people want it.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

[Revamp Man]

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

new dalaran textures can be very interesting especially if dadgar and kalecgos are big players

im not saying hub but possibly part of the intro scenario or a dungeon

[Le Conceptuel]

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

That would make for a very interesting storyline—I can see what you mean by that, and it does give a good reason for there to be Light-based antagonists other than "lol they brainwashed Illidan". I do really like that take, and I'm far from averse to an Azerothian Holy War between all the Light-worshippers with their own takes on how to properly follow the Light or which is the real approach—maybe even a Xe'raite-A'dalite Holy War. Perhaps the Naaru will have a schism and their followers end up following their respective interpretations? With the new philosophy on the Cosmic Forces, I could see this happening if the Naaru are retconned from being Angel-equivalents to just being Light-based aliens, which leaves room for infighting.

[Sondrelk]

Hey off-topic in regards to what I've quoted.. I saw you mention something quite a few pages back regarding the shield malganis drops being this expansions suramar cloak. What is the cloak youre referring to so I can look at it? Just curious

The world boss in 6.2 drops a cloak called the Suramar something cloak.

[Nymrohd]

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

She would not be welcomed by the Mag'har. The Blood Elves would not mind her. Neither would the Tauren. The Nightborne would just go with the Blood Elves for the most part. The trolls would not care as long as she is of use to everyone. And yeah Geyarah would be screaming that Yrel is a genocidal monster (while her people use dark magic to torture souls for the giggles) while Yrel calmly rebuffs her and points to the facts.

[Le Conceptuel]

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

Admittedly, that could just foster more conflict intrafaction—the Mag'har insist that they don't trust Yrel and lead the charge against the Lightbound, whereas the Blood Elves or at least the Blood Knights are sympathetic to the Lightbound and stand by them. This could create some intrafaction conflict that would be very interesting and push the plot forward.

[Baedril]

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

Taming undead did actually have some PvP impact, with certain CC working/not working on undead. It's why hunters who try and push the absolute limit out of their class will have both a normal raptor(Or other cunning mortal strike pet) and an undead raptor and then switch them out depending on what they're facing, to minimize the amount of possible crowd control on their pet.

Demon Hunters suddenly doing holy damage could also have a big impact, with Blinding Light from Paladins not breaking on holy damage, that'd be an extra stun to try and kill in whilst being on a completely different diminishing return. Though I don't think that necessarily disproves the leak or the possibility of damage types changing, the effects of it aren't nil.