Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[EbaumsTipster]

WoW will benefit from healthy competition and we are already seeing the benefits with sooner-than-later QOL for customers, an interview detailing future accessibility as a focus and more and more requested changes being implemented.

They need to be scared. That's capitalism! People think there can "only be one" big MMO and I disagree, both will likely continue on and respond to one another.

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FFXIV respects its players time. It is a video game first and foremost. It is not designed by a committee to get people to log in as much as possible. Yoshi-p straight up tells people to play another game when they finish with the current patch. Modern WoW is more like an insane asylum where the wranglers meticulously designed said asylum to keep you sick and in there for as long as possible.

If a western game designer told people to play another game while they work on updates they would be crucified. Completely different culture, in America its a huge sign of weakness that people would prey on like animals. Hence why very very few game developers apologize ever, and if they do they its often because have nothing to lose (indie studios).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

And FFXIV is entirely more innovative than WoW is. It is constantly adding new features and providing novel experiences.

Huh? I like FFXIV but I'm not going to pretend it's innovative. The only new notable new feature that FFXIV has introduced is being able to do dungeons solo with NPC party members. Otherwise, it's WoW that innovates with every single new expansions. Flying mounts in TBC, phasing and glyphs and vehicles and Wintergrasp in Wrath, transmog in Cata, scenarios and pet battles and challenge mode in MoP, garrisons and Ashran and a new daily format in WoD, artifacts and class order halls in Legion, Azerite system and island expeditions and warfronts in BFA, and Torghast and Covenants in Shadowlands. Now, Blizzard has managed to consistently botch the execution of those new innovative ideas for the past 4 expansions, but they are new and innovative. FFXIV doesn't attempt anything outside of the box like that at all.

[Azxza]

WoW will benefit from healthy competition and we are already seeing the benefits with sooner-than-later QOL for customers, an interview detailing future accessibility as a focus and more and more requested changes being implemented.

They need to be scared. That's capitalism! People think there can "only be one" big MMO and I disagree, both will likely continue on and respond to one another.

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If a western game designer told people to play another game while they work on updates they would be crucified. Completely different culture, in America its a huge sign of weakness that people would prey on like animals. Hence why very very few game developers apologize ever, and if they do they its often because have nothing to lose (indie studios).

Yoshi-p wasn't apologizing though. He was being firm with what the game's design philosophy is. A philosophy they still uphold with every patch and every expansion. This is why FFXIV's community is so much better than WoW's. The director has a clear vision of what the game is and who it appeals to. The WoW team is only interested in keeping people logging in and spending money on the shop, which is why their design is all over the place and pleases no one. Weak and ineffective direction is the reason for WoW's problems.

[Ersula]

I don't think this is relevant at the end. Both raids were treated as separate pieces of content and were given ∼5 months apart to breathe

My point is they weren't treated as separate pieces of content: People were doing Heroic Highmaul to get gear better than normal Foundry

And they weren't released 5 months apart: Nighthold came out 10 WEEKS after Emerald Nightmare & so did Foundry after Highmaul.

[Cosmic Janitor]

How about you guys shift the discussion away from the topic of other games, as that will just get the thread locked and all that needs to be said has been said a 1000 times over. You won't change either sides opinion anyway.

[Ersula]

FFXIV is entirely more innovative than WoW is. It is constantly adding new features and providing novel experiences.

Literally just adding features WoW already had: That's no innovation. Like I said, their big advantage is having an expansion to promote during WoW droughts, just like Shadowbringers in BFA.

FFXIV respects its players time. It is a video game first and foremost. It is not designed by a committee to get people to log in as much as possible. Yoshi-p straight up tells people to play another game when they finish with the current patch. Modern WoW is more like an insane asylum where the wranglers meticulously designed said asylum to keep you sick and in there for as long as possible.

This is laughable. Japanese games as a whole, are so much more grindy than western games. Unlike wow YOU HAVE TO PAY TO SKIP THE STORY. I don't know if that's changed but when I played I was horrified the only way to skip a pervious expansions storyline was to pay actual money.

I wouldn't describe modern WoW as grindy at all: The main problem is that the skillcap is really punishing & the community has become obsessed with min/maxxing & their virtual credit score.

I'm hoping they add a class to WoW like the classic FF14 Bard: It needs a support spec that can be valuable to a group without min/maxing dps or hps

[Makabreska]

How about you guys shift the discussion away from the topic of other games, as that will just get the thread locked and all that needs to be said has been said a 1000 times over. You won't change either sides opinion anyway.

Thread locked? Please. People are comparing games and their features to each other, hardly an off-topic.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Thread locked? Please. People are comparing games and their features to each other, hardly an off-topic.

The mods constantly lock threads because of game vs game (usually this just means wow vs ffxiv).

[draugril]

Huh? I like FFXIV but I'm not going to pretend it's innovative. The only new notable new feature that FFXIV has introduced is being able to do dungeons solo with NPC party members. Otherwise, it's WoW that innovates with every single new expansions. Flying mounts in TBC, phasing and glyphs and vehicles and Wintergrasp in Wrath, transmog in Cata, scenarios and pet battles and challenge mode in MoP, garrisons and Ashran and a new daily format in WoD, artifacts and class order halls in Legion, Azerite system and island expeditions and warfronts in BFA, and Torghast and Covenants in Shadowlands. Now, Blizzard has managed to consistently botch the execution of those new innovative ideas for the past 4 expansions, but they are new and innovative. FFXIV doesn't attempt anything outside of the box like that at all.

Depends on your idea of innovation, I suppose. I could list out "alternative" content for FFXIV as well, but the greater point is that:

a) FFXIV doesn't treat content that falls outside the loot treadmill paradigm as "alternative;" and
b) FFXIV doesn't force you to do that "alternative" content to be viable in other streams of content.

When WoW creates new content, they are afraid to let it stand on its own merit and wind up completely kneecapping its potential because people are forced into it. Torghast is a great example. Conceptually, I love it. But they created a structure around it that forces me to play it to become and remain viable in other areas of the game. So I dislike it. I don't dislike it, inherently - I find the concept fun, and see the potential in the execution. But they force people to play it, then give up on it as a concept because people didn't like that. Same is true for garrisons, world quests, emissaries, warfronts, island expeditions, horrific visions, etc.

WoW has stagnated and lost confidence in itself. FFXIV is still willing to try new things. I have my share of issues with it, but a "lack of innovation" is not among them.

When 10.0 is announced as 4 new zones, and endgame zone, 8 new dungeons, 1 new raid, and one bonus feature that will be required to progress your new player power system (which is just artifacts being reset a third time), we can revisit the topic.

[Makabreska]

The mods constantly lock threads because of game vs game (usually this just means wow vs ffxiv).

Haven't seen it yet in here or any other big speculation threads. They will just come and give a warning, which is all it takes.

[draugril]

Literally just adding features WoW already had: That's no innovation. Like I said, their big advantage is having an expansion to promote during WoW droughts, just like Shadowbringers in BFA.


This is laughable. Japanese games as a whole, are so much more grindy than western games. Unlike wow YOU HAVE TO PAY TO SKIP THE STORY. I don't know if that's changed but when I played I was horrified the only way to skip a pervious expansions storyline was to pay actual money.

I wouldn't describe modern WoW as grindy at all: The main problem is that the skillcap is really punishing & the community has become obsessed with min/maxxing & their virtual credit score.

I'm hoping they add a class to WoW like the classic FF14 Bard: It needs a support spec that can be valuable to a group without min/maxing dps or hps

Like I said, play FFXIV as WoW and you'll be disappointed. WoW does WoW best and always will.

As for a support class in WoW? Shaman and Paladin were support classes. That role was designed out of the game early. They'd have to completely restructure the party system to add the role back in.

And the WoW developers themselves are also obsessed with managing that credit score. They made Gear Score a stat, and then added in Raider.io years later. You can't blame the players when the developers place such an emphasis on it - and when the lead developer was hired specifically because of how good he was at managing that number.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

They’ll go where the viewers are and a new WoW xpac means tons of viewers. Absolutely zero doubt they will both stream WoW for the new xpac, if not 9.2.

For guys on the level of Asmongold that's not really the case. These guys have viewers that travel, it's what makes them so desirable as influencers.

And even if they didn't have traveling fans, the 14 directory on Twitch has absolutely become banging over the last year. It's no longer a "you don't stream this game because you lose viewers" category, which is why a lot of mid-level streamers have been giving the game another look.

[Makabreska]

For guys on the level of Asmongold that's not really the case. These guys have viewers that travel, it's what makes them so desirable as influencers.

And they will STILL come back for new WoW expansion, because it will STILL give them more views and make them more money.

And if it's not for the money, then for the desire of checking up on a game they have been playing for so long.

[Azxza]

Literally just adding features WoW already had: That's no innovation. Like I said, their big advantage is having an expansion to promote during WoW droughts, just like Shadowbringers in BFA.


This is laughable. Japanese games as a whole, are so much more grindy than western games. Unlike wow YOU HAVE TO PAY TO SKIP THE STORY. I don't know if that's changed but when I played I was horrified the only way to skip a pervious expansions storyline was to pay actual money.

I wouldn't describe modern WoW as grindy at all: The main problem is that the skillcap is really punishing & the community has become obsessed with min/maxxing & their virtual credit score.

I'm hoping they add a class to WoW like the classic FF14 Bard: It needs a support spec that can be valuable to a group without min/maxing dps or hps

It's a skip like any other. It takes you to level 70, just like WoW's skip takes you to 50.

Also, FFXIV? grindy? but WoW isn't? Please stop posting cringe.

[Ersula]

Like I said, play FFXIV as WoW and you'll be disappointed. WoW does WoW best and always will.

As for a support class in WoW? Shaman and Paladin were support classes. That role was designed out of the game early. They'd have to completely restructure the party system to add the role back in.

*Looks at the support oriented Night Fae Paladin, who through Shadowlands development went from most popular spec combo to least popular in the entire game*

Yeah, like when FF14 turned the Bard class into a more WoW-like straightforward dps. And I think that was a mistake.

You don't need to change the holy trinity to make a support class: Just make a healer or DPS spec that is valuable to a party even if they don't top the meters. We some anti-parse specs to combat the current WoW mindset: Ascension does this. Ability Enchantments are just like conduits except better because they let you build new playstyles: Like a offhand healer with powerful short-term buffs.

[Sondrelk]

Depends on your idea of innovation, I suppose. I could list out "alternative" content for FFXIV as well, but the greater point is that:

a) FFXIV doesn't treat content that falls outside the loot treadmill paradigm as "alternative;" and
b) FFXIV doesn't force you to do that "alternative" content to be viable in other streams of content.

This seems more to do with FFXIV having went for a divergent path to what WoW did in WotLK.
From what I have seen it seems to me that raids (or whatever they are called) in FFXIV are more the spice on top of the real meat of the game, which in that case is the questlines. The real strength of that game is that its writing is more in-depth, and from what I have seen at least it seems that the developers treat raids more like how the WoW developers used to treat raids back in Vanilla, as the finale of a storyline.

Ever since WotLK WoW went for the path where raids were the preeminent endgame activity. Dungeons were a stepping stone ot gear up for raids, storylines were more to inform raids, and patches were all centered around a raid and the internal gearing path it gives.
What this means however is that it is very difficult to make things like professions meaningful, specifically with things like being alternative gearing paths. If you can get BiS gear from professions, then why do raids? Same with World Quests or anything really.
On the other end it has also been in part been shaped by, and in another helped shape the WoW playerbase of today, where systems need to give a tangible benefit to endgame activities, which means raids, otherwise it's moot, and a waste of time for at least a large chunk of the playerbase.

WoW could have stuff like what FFXIV has, but it would require a drastic rethink of WoW as a whole, not simply deciding that it does things "better".

[Ersula]

It's a skip like any other. It takes you to level 70, just like WoW's skip takes you to 50.

You're being willfully ignorant: Separate from the boost: You're forced to do the entire storyline if you level up through any other method. In WoW you can skip all of it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

You're being willfully ignorant: Separate from the boost: You're forced to do the entire storyline if you level up through any other method. In WoW you can skip all of it.

And you know what, that story is why most people play the game. Which you definitely can't say about WoW.

[Makabreska]

And you know what, that story is why most people play the game. Which you definitely can't say about WoW.

And how do you know that the story is main incentive?

[Black Rider]

My point is they weren't treated as separate pieces of content: People were doing Heroic Highmaul to get gear better than normal Foundry

And they weren't released 5 months apart: Nighthold came out 10 WEEKS after Emerald Nightmare & so did Foundry after Highmaul.

And it was great