Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Zankai27]

And let's compare your items here;

Russell the Bard has done what exactly? Has he gone on any missions? Has he participated in any major events? Has he traveled anywhere beyond his tavern?

Compare that to Chen Stormstout; Savior of Ogrimmar, champion of the Horde for helping Thrall defeat Admiral Proudmoore.

There's really no comparison.



Who's arguing hard? I'm merely pointing out that you're comparing a highly established class concept with a non-existent one.

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Because in order to be an expansion class in WoW you have to be linked to a lore hero, of which Bards have none.

I knew this would be where we'd get. But you purposefully ignore every potential "Bard" reference in WoW (the two bands, the April Fool's Joke, Russel the Bard, nameless Bards, a popular character in HotS (which is most of the structure for your Dragonborne class, so that has to count too.)) just because it doesn't fit your criteria. You seem to be under the impression that Blizzard has strict rules about what can and can't be a class, and as someone who actually knows a two people on the dev team, you're way, way overthinking it.

You also seem to be under the impression that it has to either be your two ideas or nothing. Frankly, I'd like multiple new ideas and welcome all of them. Let's get Tinkers, Dragons, Bards *and* anything else.

You really shouldn't look at things as definitively having to work a certain way though, or that the dev team literally needs to do something one way, unless you want to look back on 2015 Teriz' Demon Hunter opinions.

[Teriz]

I wonder, could the steamscale be indicating/suggesting that tinkers/engineers/artificers are advancing in what their tech/science is capable of?

Maybe experimenting with high power/volatile sources, like a demon soul, could lead them to a breakthrough with X power source introduced in 10.0 narrative. Heck could simply be a refined/manipulated azerite crystal.

Either way, super excited to have a date and know that the horizon of what’s next is near. Hype!

That's what I'm saying; You can take the clue literally or figuratively, but it's definitely a clue that should be considered, because it and the TMD is sort of floating outside the lore for some reason.

[Ersula]

Because in order to be an expansion class in WoW you have to be linked to a lore hero, of which Bards have none.

The Wow Classes more closely resemble the Dungeons & Dragons classes than Warcraft 3 classes, with the exception of Hero Classes (which have been pretty much phased out, since they removed their iconic requirements & increased starting level) Priests got nothing from Tyrande. Rogues were created wholesale. Hunters only resemble Rexxar in that they have a pet & none of his abilities. Etc.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Eli...ain%20(L70ETC)

You want to build a class and expansion lore around that?

Yes. But also, a.) why would an expansion need to revolve around the new class? There's a lot of aesthetic similarity between a new class & the expansion they were added, but the story absolutely did not revolve around that class. And b.) I sense a lot of denial about how much WoW lifts directly from Wizards of the Coasts properties. Google what the moon goddess is named in the Forgotten Realms. Or where the term Shadowlands comes from.

That's what I'm saying; You can take the clue literally or figuratively, but it's definitely a clue that should be considered, because it and the TMD is sort of floating outside the lore for some reason.

Remember when they added Tyreal's Charger & they had a Diablo themed expansion? That was my favorite. With the Winged Guardian shop mount expansion being a close second.

[Teriz]

I knew this would be where we'd get. But you purposefully ignore every potential "Bard" reference in WoW (the two bands, the April Fool's Joke, Russel the Bard, nameless Bards, a popular character in HotS (which is most of the structure for your Dragonborne class, so that has to count too.)) just because it doesn't fit your criteria. You seem to be under the impression that Blizzard has strict rules about what can and can't be a class, and as someone who actually knows a two people on the dev team, you're way, way overthinking it.

No, my structure for a dragonborne class is numerous draconic characters in WoW lore who disguise themselves as mortals. We're talking about major characters like Wrathion, Chromie, and Alexstraza. Now once again, compare them to Russell the Bard. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again; What has he done exactly? Has he gone on any missions? Has he participated in any major events? Has he traveled anywhere beyond his tavern?

And I'll ask this question as well; Name some unique Bard abilities. Demon Hunters had Metamorphosis and Mana Burn. Death Knights had Death Pact and Unholy Aura. Monks had Breath of Fire and Drunken Haze. What's a unique Bard ability?

You also seem to be under the impression that it has to either be your two ideas or nothing. Frankly, I'd like multiple new ideas and welcome all of them. Let's get Tinkers, Dragons, Bards *and* anything else.

I'd like to see multiple new ideas as well, however, we should also recognize why Blizzard has only released 3 new class in the span of almost 20 years; It's because they're very conservative about their classes, and only certain classes make sense in WoW. That is by design.

You really shouldn't look at things as definitively having to work a certain way though, or that the dev team literally needs to do something one way, unless you want to look back on 2015 Teriz' Demon Hunter opinions.

And I stand by those opinions. I predicted that the Demon Hunter would be a shallow class that hinged largely on Metamorphosis, and I was correct. You'll pardon me if I didn't believe that Blizzard would purposely gut a popular Warlock spec to bring DHs in the game.

[Blackwald]

Hey Teriz,

Were I to fast forward a couple of days and see what you're reaction was like to a hypothetical expansion reveal that had literally no connection to dragons or tinkers, what would it look like?

[Teriz]

The Wow Classes more closely resemble the Dungeons & Dragons classes than Warcraft 3 classes, with the exception of Hero Classes (which have been pretty much phased out, since they removed their iconic requirements & increased starting level) Priests got nothing from Tyrande.

Vanilla NE Priests had a version of Starfall.

Rogues were created wholesale.

Nah, they were based largely on Wardens. In WC3 Wardens were originally Assassins, but Blizzard altered their lore and changed their name, but retained their abilities. Hence why Rogues got quite a few of their abilities. In addition there was the halfocren Rogue Garona.

Hunters only resemble Rexxar in that they have a pet & none of his abilities. Etc.

Stampede is a Beastmaster talent, and the entire concept of melee hunters comes from Rexxar.

Yes. But also, a.) why would an expansion need to revolve around the new class? There's a lot of aesthetic similarity between a new class & the expansion they were added, but the story absolutely did not revolve around that class. And b.) I sense a lot of denial about how much WoW lifts directly from Wizards of the Coasts properties. Google what the moon goddess is named in the Forgotten Realms. Or where the term Shadowlands comes from.

Because a new class is a pretty big deal, and needs to make sense within the expansion of its release. Also every class had some level of connection to the expansion it was released in. It certainly helps that the major characters of those expansions; LK, Chen, and Illidan were members of the new class.

Remember when they added Tyreal's Charger & they had a Diablo themed expansion? That was my favorite. With the Winged Guardian shop mount expansion being a close second.

I missed the part where I said that EVERY mount released is related to the next expansion....

[Zankai27]

No, my structure for a dragonborne class is numerous draconic characters in WoW lore who disguise themselves as mortals. We're talking about major characters like Wrathion, Chromie, and Alexstraza. Now once again, compare them to Russell the Bard. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again; What has he done exactly? Has he gone on any missions? Has he participated in any major events? Has he traveled anywhere beyond his tavern?

Nope, but there's plenty of time to explore that in the future. To say it can't happen, given that Bards are the last remaining classical DnD class (something foundational for WoW's creation) is just as silly as saying they'll never do Demon Hunters. Why do you think they even thought of an April Fool's joke for Bards in the first place?

And I'll ask this question as well; Name some unique Bard abilities. Demon Hunters had Metamorphosis and Mana Burn. Death Knights had Death Pact and Unholy Aura. Monks had Breath of Fire and Drunken Haze. What's a unique Bard ability?

ETC's got Stage Dive, Face Melt, Mosh Pit, any of those could be utilized or repurposed for whatever flavor of Bard they'd use.

My point isn't that they'll do it *now*, I don't think that in the slightest, but setup can be done any time they want.

I'd like to see multiple new ideas as well, however, we should also recognize why Blizzard has only released 3 new class in the span of almost 20 years; It's because they're very conservative about their classes, and only certain classes make sense in WoW. That is by design.

And then it shouldn't surprise you plenty of people only care about something like Bard, given it's a classical RPG class. If there's a few slots, people want it given to whatever they're most familiar with. Most people don't give a damn about "setup" and I wish you'd realize that. Setup can be done when it's time, anyway.

And I stand by those opinions. I predicted that the Demon Hunter would be a shallow class that hinged largely on Metamorphosis, and I was correct. You'll pardon me if I didn't believe that Blizzard would purposely gut a popular Warlock spec to bring DHs in the game.

Wrong is still wrong, man. We said it could happen, and it did. Blizzard will do whatever they want to establish whatever they want. I was right about Void Elves, too.

Nah, they were based largely on Wardens.

Citation needed. They were based on run-of-the-mill bandits and Outlaws. They didn't get Warden flavor until BC.

Stampede is a Beastmaster talent, and the entire concept of melee hunters comes from Rexxar.

Stampede was added way, WAY later. Like, waaaay later. MoP later. It's hardly comparable to Hunters in Vanilla, who shared nothing with Rexxar.

[Teriz]

Hey Teriz,

Were I to fast forward a couple of days and see what you're reaction was like to a hypothetical expansion reveal that had literally no connection to dragons or tinkers, what would it look like?

Excitement for a new expansion.

[Triceron]

And you know this how exactly?



Any future expansion that we know of.




There's a history of WoW mounts and pets foreshadowing future content. In this case, we have both a mount and a pet.

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The difference here is that we got both a mount and a pet utilizing the same skin. There is a history of WoW mounts showing aspects of future content, and we have a history of pets outright foreshadowing future content (Pandaren Monk Pet WotLK). As I said in another post, in the case of the mechanical dragons, not only do we have a mount and a pet, but they're connected because the pet is the companion to the mount.

Yes, and they are pretty specific to the mounts datamined shortly prior to the next expansions. This is whyy no one would use an example like the Steamscale or Dreadwake mounts in this conversation. We aren't just talking about any shop mount for the sake of being a shop mount.

[Blackwald]

Well that's always great to see. Hype feels good.

You wouldn't feel silly about the thousands of pages of discussion insisting on the dragon stuff?

[Teriz]

Nope, but there's plenty of time to explore that in the future. To say it can't happen, given that Bards are the last remaining classical DnD class (something foundational for WoW's creation)

What D&D does has little bearing on what is contained in WoW. Again, they had a TTRPG largely based on D&D and they STILL didn't create a Bard class.

Why do you think they even thought of an April Fool's joke for Bards in the first place?

Because Guitar Hero was a popular game at the time. That's about it.

ETC's got Stage Dive, Face Melt, Mosh Pit, any of those could be utilized or repurposed for whatever flavor of Bard they'd use.

So you honestly believe they're going to use heavy metal concepts for a Bard class in a high fantasy setting?

And then it shouldn't surprise you plenty of people only care about something like Bard, given it's a classical RPG class. If there's a few slots, people want it given to whatever they're most familiar with. Most people don't give a damn about "setup" and I wish you'd realize that. Setup can be done when it's time, anyway.

People are free to want whatever they want. I'm merely pointing out that the Bard lacks significant lore foundations to be a WoW class. There's nothing there except a spoof of a rock band, and a homage to a former sound designer. Again, this dearth of Bard lore is by design.

[Zankai27]

What D&D does has little bearing on what is contained in WoW. Again, they had a TTRPG largely based on D&D and they STILL didn't create a Bard class.



Because Guitar Hero was a popular game at the time. That's about it.




So you honestly believe they're going to use heavy metal concepts for a Bard class in a high fantasy setting?



People are free to want whatever they want. I'm merely pointing out that the Bard lacks significant lore foundations to be a WoW class. There's nothing there except a spoof of a rock band, and a homage to a former sound designer. Again, this dearth of Bard lore is by design.

That's about enough of this for me. You do you, Teriz. I hope you continue to be surprised instead of correct.

[Teriz]

Yes, and they are pretty specific to the mounts datamined shortly prior to the next expansions. This is whyy no one would use an example like the Steamscale or Dreadwake mounts in this conversation. We aren't just talking about any shop mount for the sake of being a shop mount.

Why wouldn't you use a dragon mount and pet from BFA and Shadowlands to show a connection to an expected future dragon expansion?

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Well that's always great to see. Hype feels good.

You wouldn't feel silly about the thousands of pages of discussion insisting on the dragon stuff?

Why would I? I'm just killing time until the expansion is announced.

[Nightshade711]

So you honestly believe they're going to use heavy metal concepts for a Bard class in a high fantasy setting?

Both ETC & Blight Boar already exist in WoW.
Including several items (Arcanite Ripper, The elf guitar, Blight boar guitar, Blight boar microphone, twelve-string guitar, etc etc)
The guitars also mentioning the face melter and death metal, etc

[Teriz]

Both ETC & Blight Boar already exist in WoW.

Yes, as spoof characters. They're not characters like Anduin, Wrathion, Gazlowe, Thrall, etc. They're just tongue and cheek additions to the game. You're never going to see them in raids helping you slay bosses, go on missions for the Horde, or anything like that.

You might as well say that they're going to make a Mr. T. Mohawk class that tosses mohawk grenades.

[Revamp Man]

In this case, the last AoC just shares theme with the raid, so it doesn't seem to hint at the next expansion, but we have other hints:
- The blue phoenix on the store, and the red one datamined at the same time. The birds on ZM seem to be "prototypes" of them.
- Cats similar to the one in the store.
- Wombats. I doubt wombatas they are just made for ZM, and they seem to be "prototypes" of the ones we'll see.
- Axolotls. Same as wombats.

We also have the hint at the transmogs: they released the sprite transmog with the SL pre-patch. To me, it feels like a discarded concept for an Ardenweald armor set.
So what if the stargazer transmog is also a discarded concept for the next expansion?

aotc and transmogs have nothing to do with the mounts

[Nightshade711]

Yes, as spoof characters. They're not characters like Anduin, Wrathion, Gazlowe, Thrall, etc. They're just tongue and cheek additions to the game. You're never going to see them in raids helping you slay bosses or anything like that.

Point is that you saying heavy metal & it’s concepts won’t be used in a high fantasy setting is false.
Probably why you deleted the part after showing all the items the player can already get.

Also they could easily always give them a bit more lore in future expansions, especially if we ever fight Murmur, who is a sound elemental, in his full form.
Of course bards like ETC and Blight Boar would be perfect fighting something like that.

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In this case, the last AoC just shares theme with the raid, so it doesn't seem to hint at the next expansion, but we have other hints:
- The blue phoenix on the store, and the red one datamined at the same time. The birds on ZM seem to be "prototypes" of them.
- Cats similar to the one in the store.
- Wombats. I doubt wombatas they are just made for ZM, and they seem to be "prototypes" of the ones we'll see.
- Axolotls. Same as wombats.

We also have the hint at the transmogs: they released the sprite transmog with the SL pre-patch. To me, it feels like a discarded concept for an Ardenweald armor set.
So what if the stargazer transmog is also a discarded concept for the next expansion?

From what I understand the fae set was supposed to be a reward from an Emerald Dreamway murder mystery that was supposed to be in BfA.
Assuming it was supposed to be like the Deaths of Chromie.
(Which I wouldn’t be surprised if it popped up in next xpac if it’s dragon themed)

[Triceron]

Why wouldn't you use a dragon mount and pet from BFA and Shadowlands to show a connection to an expected future dragon expansion?

Because they aren't just based on correlation of any random store mount?

[Revamp Man]

I thought we agreed that the next expansion is dragon-based correct?

Then at the VERY least a Dragon mount should be a hint of said dragon-based expansion. You're simply dismissing it because it's mechanical.



Its a call-back to the original dragon soul.



With the exact same skin as the Steamscale.



It's a mechanical dragon released at the end of an expansion filled with technology class and dragon hints. What connections do I need to force?

whether i want it to be dragon based or not doesnt matter
a lot of hints to it but none being the steamscale mount (unless you count when i tried to use it as a troll post about talon guards)
even if steamscale is what they want to use as a hint it is not a part of a pattern
it was the last mount but that was AFTER the announcement yeah?
you are forcing steamscale to be a thing because it doesnt fit the thing
the last mounts BEFORE the expansion announcement have hinted at the next
you are saying the steamscale hints at the expansion after the next but theres nothing saying that is true

you then use an anniversary pet which imo might be a hint but we have no reason to believe so

because of this im looking at the cat mount

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Because they aren't just based on correlation of any random store mount?

this^^^^
yeah i want a dragon expansion
yeah i believe it is happening
NO i wont change something that we can observe just because i want dragons

[Ersula]

So you honestly believe they're going to use heavy metal concepts for a Bard class in a high fantasy setting?

The game has two heavy Metal bands in canon. You're arguing for a robotics class; Isn't this statement pretty hypocritical?

Vanilla NE Priests had a version of Starfall.

No they didn't. They had a variation of moonfire, a druid spell. Not even close to a giant AOE.

Nah, they were based largely on Wardens. In WC3 Wardens were originally Assassins, but Blizzard altered their lore and changed their name, but retained their abilities. Hence why Rogues got quite a few of their abilities. In addition there was the halfocren Rogue Garona.

This is backwards logic. Rogues didn't get abilities from the Warden kit until the FOURTH expansion. And Garona didn't have ANY special abilities. Same goes for Stampede, an ability hunters didn't get until YEARS later. What exactly were they basing the vanilla rogue if not the wealth of Dungeons & Dragons inspired media that came before Warcraft?

Because a new class is a pretty big deal, and needs to make sense within the expansion of its release. Also every class had some level of connection to the expansion it was released in. It certainly helps that the major characters of those expansions; LK, Chen, and Illidan were members of the new class.

If that's an absolute necessity, its not a problem, considering how they've been changing major characters classes a lot lately. Sylvanas got void bolt. Tyrande had warglaves for exactly one expansion. Anduin was a death knight for a little while. Thrall lost all his Shaman abilities for some reason & is now a pure warrior. If Wrathion whipped out a lute it would not seem weird.

I missed the part where I said that EVERY mount released is related to the next expansion....

That's certainly how you were making it sound. Clearly you know Mechanical dragons may never be mentioned again in WoW.

Why wouldn't you use a dragon mount and pet from BFA and Shadowlands to show a connection to an expected future dragon expansion?

Yes, but you're using it as evidence against other classes' references in lore, which doesn't make sense.