Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Raetary]

"Aliens with paceships and lasers are a more grounded threat than aliens with spaceships and lasers"

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

We definitely do NOT need a big bad for 10.0

[TomatoBisque]

Reposting from another thread: Arathi's skybox extends into Hillsbrad, Hinterlands (with a bug) and Wetlands. Maybe a point towards "zone merges".



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Considering every expansion from here on out is likely going to feature void creatures, light creatures, elementals or demons, this feels like a hangup on them having a spaceship.

After Shadowlands, that IS grounded for Warcraft. The only thing less so is an expansion featuring only the Scarlets, Venture Co, Scourge, Syndicate, Gnolls, Kobolds etc which is never ever going to happen.

It's not a hangup, the "grounded fantasy" meme is just silly. People want to go back to Azeroth and more familiar things but don't understand their own feelings

You can't say the game should go back to a "classic medieval aesthetic" when there have been canon spaceships since TBC, eldritch monsters since WC3, and gunpowder/steam-based technology since even before that. Warcraft has always been a mishmash of stuff that the creative team thought was cool, it's only "classic medieval" at a cursory glance.

And that's the issue with Shadowlands writing, not it being too scifi/cosmic. Just about everything introduced was brand new that we'd never even gotten a hint of before: The zones and the life (death?) in them were all things that had nothing familiar in them. We didn't even get familiar characters for most of the leveling campaign--only Maldraxxus had them play major parts (Uther made a small cameo and Ysera was more of a plot device/macguffin than a character). Other expansions didn't have this issue because either the zones or the races or the characters involved were familiar. Sure, we've never seen anything like the Drust before BFA, but it was in Kul Tiras which is something we DO know existed so it feels more connected to the rest of the world. MoP had the same issue but to a lesser extent where it was too unfamiliar, Pandarens weren't well established enough as being canon vs. not before the expansion hit and it hurt it a lot as a result

So what I'm saying is a lightbound invasion with spaceships and robots would be fine because it is connected to previous lore (and also because robots and spaceships have been in the series forever), it feels familiar. We know about Yrel and the Naaru and Turalyon. It builds off preestablished lore so people are better able to emotionally connect to it.

[Factcheckerr]

It's not a hangup, the "grounded fantasy" meme is just silly. People want to go back to Azeroth and more familiar things but don't understand their own feelings

You can't say the game should go back to a "classic medieval aesthetic" when there have been canon spaceships since TBC, eldritch monsters since WC3, and gunpowder/steam-based technology since even before that. Warcraft has always been a mishmash of stuff that the creative team thought was cool, it's only "classic medieval" at a cursory glance.

And that's the issue with Shadowlands writing, not it being too scifi/cosmic. Just about everything introduced was brand new that we'd never even gotten a hint of before: The zones and the life (death?) in them were all things that had nothing familiar in them. We didn't even get familiar characters for most of the leveling campaign--only Maldraxxus had them play major parts (Uther made a small cameo and Ysera was more of a plot device/macguffin than a character). Other expansions didn't have this issue because either the zones or the races or the characters involved were familiar. Sure, we've never seen anything like the Drust before BFA, but it was in Kul Tiras which is something we DO know existed so it feels more connected to the rest of the world. MoP had the same issue but to a lesser extent where it was too unfamiliar, Pandarens weren't well established enough as being canon vs. not before the expansion hit and it hurt it a lot as a result

So what I'm saying is a lightbound invasion with spaceships and robots would be fine because it is connected to previous lore, it feels familiar. We know about Yrel and the Naaru and Turalyon. It builds off preestablished lore so people are better able to emotionally connect to it.

They tried to make the zones based off stuff from Warcraft (Spirit Healers, Nathrezim, Scourge/Cult of the Damned and Fae stuff) but didn't do it enough. They aren't going to ever get that weird again.

The fact that Revendreth is inspired by Nathrezim, but they don't appear until first patch, is ballsy creatively but doesn't work for most people considering how many people didn't get that they were connected at launch. Same as how people STILL don't understand why Kul Tirans are big and the Drust Vrykul connection: they need an NPC to stare at the screen and say it.

[Teriz]

"Aliens with paceships and lasers are a more grounded threat than aliens with spaceships and lasers"

The Burning Legion is more grounded than the Lightbound.

That said, I wouldn't consider Legion a grounded expansion either.

[therumblings]

The Burning Legion is more grounded than the Lightbound.

That said, I wouldn't consider Legion a grounded expansion either.

We haven't even seen much from the Lightbound though, they aren't the Army of the Light.

[Vakir]

We don't need a threat on that level.

Hoping my dream of small local conflicts, evergreen revamps, and racial campaigns is the reality.

[Teriz]

We haven't even seen much from the Lightbound though, they aren't the Army of the Light.

That is true as well. I'm simply not buying the notion that a grounded expansion includes an extradimensional alien invasion. I DO think we'll encounter Yrel at some point, but is a Lightbound expansion really plausible? It seems like WoD 2.0 minus us going to Draenor. Going to Draenor was 99% of the point of WoD.

[Pheraz]

We definitely do NOT need a big bad for 10.0

Yes that's why I believe they will do a "civil war" expansion

Turalyon and scarlet extremists Vs Anduin, Alleria &genn
BE extremists Vs liberalists who can accept high/void elves in Silvermoon
Highborne vs tyrande leader fight at kaldorei City XYZ
Undeads Vs light forged undeads

And with such chaos they could even say "the world needs the neutral dragon guardians back"

As I said blizzard lore people loooooove marvel

[draugril]

That is true as well. I'm simply not buying the notion that a grounded expansion includes an extradimensional alien invasion. I DO think we'll encounter Yrel at some point, but is a Lightbound expansion really plausible? It seems like WoD 2.0 minus us going to Draenor.

Here's the thing - the boring medieval baseline? It's the glue that holds everything together and makes the franchise, pardon he pun, fantastic. The spaceships and steampunk and cosmic stuff works best when it is contrasted with the mundane baseline. When that stuff becomes the baseline... it's boring. The contrast is what makes it fun and appealing.

[draugril]

But I do worry they feel like this is too much work.

Given Blizzard's resources... it really isn't. They could do so much more if the resources were dedicated to it. Unfortunately, they have no reason to be ambitious if the trickle of content is as wildly profitable as it is. And if players were to finally reject these meagre offerings and demand more before opening up their wallets... that would be the only thing that actually kills WoW. They're infinitely more likely to just shut it down than reinvest any significant resources into it.

[Grimbold21]

It's not just that people didn't like the dungeon difficulty. What was particularly off putting was the perception of what the devs were saying. Basically, "yes, we know some of you like easier content. You can all go fuck yourselves."

Any time the devs appear to be favoring their own selfish conceits over what a group of customers want, they're going to get this reaction.

Context.

The primary reason people complained early on about Cata's dungeons perceived difficulty was because we were coming off of WOTLK. Wrath which without a doubt spoiled people in regard to 5 man difficulty.

As someone who loved TBC dungeons difficulty, wotlk was a huge disappointment. And it was with the same attitude that I met the complaints that came with Cata's version.

[Shadochi]

I will accept a long drought, but it ought to come with some QOL like faster XP for alts. I'd love spending the next year getting my army up to speed without having to run Shadowlands over and over, for example. Let us go all the way to 60 in Chromie Time.

As for the current rumours themselves... while I'd love to see Lordaeron revamped, and understand the practical reasons for doing the revamp over multiple expansions, I'm not sure I see it happening this way. If they do 1/4 of the old world per expansion, by the time it's all done the earlier revamps will feel obsolete already.

I feel like one of the following has to be true:

Scenario A - Blizzard isn't doing a revamp at all, and the content we're seeing in Lordaeron right now is just another layer added on the multi-expansion mess that is the old world. They will keep doing individual zone revamps "when it makes sense" like they did with Arathi, and we could see this happening first with Quel'thalas, Gilneas or the Undercity perhaps. The expansion itself will take place elsewhere, like on the Dragon Isles or in Undermine.

Scenario B - Blizzard is revamping all of the Eastern Kingdoms, so the entire continent comes up to speed. In the expansion following that, they'll do Kalimdor. Sort of how Hearthstone released a Horde expansion followed by an Alliance one.

Scenario C - Blizzard is revamping both Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. I think this makes the most sense. We've seen new assets for creatures and zone biomes for Kalimdor as well, and they've already started with Silithus. But I do worry they feel like this is too much work.

I hope for C, as with most people probably. Something that could make the revamp easier for quests and assets is to merge zones into blocks. So 2+ zones become 1. Instead of Eastern and Western plaguelands merge it into Plaguelands (or whatever name), have another zone be the Blackrock mountain block, Stranglethorn cape, Barrens once again (build bridges over the ravine), Nighelf Homeland block (Ashenvale and Darkshore, maybe Felwood), pull a cool desert/nature plot by uniting Feralas and Desolace, Quelthalas (unite the 2 zones), Lordaeron block, Dwarven Block (Dun Morog, Loch Modan) and of course more.

There is no reason to have all these zones, they were added like so in vanilla for different leveling paths and options, but I think it would be much better to just combine some of them. Put them on a new map and have the old world accessed through chromie or a portal.
Also bring in all the new races and allied races and NPC factions into zones where it makes sense, quality assets you can use to push the story into different directions. And I assume by this point at least Pandaren would've crossed to the continents.

Even more ideal would be if we got an update to everything cata and before, including Outland and Northrend.

[Tartys]

Yes that's why I believe they will do a "civil war" expansion

which fits perfectly with the introducing of cross-faction istances...

[draugril]

they were added like so in vanilla for different leveling paths and options,

They were added because they're places in this world. The geography of modern zones is entirely informed by the demands of the game mechanics, but in those early days? They built the world first, then added the systems that we use to interact with it. Somewhere along the line, that was inverted.

[Teriz]

Here's the thing - the boring medieval baseline? It's the glue that holds everything together and makes the franchise, pardon he pun, fantastic. The spaceships and steampunk and cosmic stuff works best when it is contrasted with the mundane baseline. When that stuff becomes the baseline... it's boring. The contrast is what makes it fun and appealing.

Which is why I'm more inclined to believe that an Undermine/Dragon Isles expansion is next. It simply makes more sense on multiple levels.

[SunspotAnims]

And if players were to finally reject these meagre offerings and demand more before opening up their wallets... that would be the only thing that actually kills WoW. They're infinitely more likely to just shut it down than reinvest any significant resources into it.

I find this assertion particularly hard to believe primarily due to the upcoming Microsoft acquisition. Maybe this would be plausible in the event of ActiBlizz making this decision on its own, but that is soon to be no longer possible.

I sincerely believe Microsoft wouldn't have spent the ridiculous amount of money that they did on these IPs if they weren't intent on investing heavily in making them popular. Sure, that means they'd invest in more than just Warcraft, or even more than just WoW under the Warcraft IP, but I think "investment" in Warcraft is going to be more likely than you think over the next several years.

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I hope for C, as with most people probably. Something that could make the revamp easier for quests and assets is to merge zones into blocks. So 2+ zones become 1. Instead of Eastern and Western plaguelands merge it into Plaguelands (or whatever name), have another zone be the Blackrock mountain block, Stranglethorn cape, Barrens once again (build bridges over the ravine), Nighelf Homeland block (Ashenvale and Darkshore, maybe Felwood), pull a cool desert/nature plot by uniting Feralas and Desolace, Quelthalas (unite the 2 zones), Lordaeron block, Dwarven Block (Dun Morog, Loch Modan) and of course more.

There is no reason to have all these zones, they were added like so in vanilla for different leveling paths and options, but I think it would be much better to just combine some of them. Put them on a new map and have the old world accessed through chromie or a portal.
Also bring in all the new races and allied races and NPC factions into zones where it makes sense, quality assets you can use to push the story into different directions. And I assume by this point at least Pandaren would've crossed to the continents.

Even more ideal would be if we got an update to everything cata and before, including Outland and Northrend.

I hadn't thought about the "merging zones" thing until folks started bringing it up recently but it does make a lot of since for a possible revamp. Critically, the old world is hampered by blobby mountains separating basically every zone. This was done in the past because the devs couldn't think of a better way to have every zone be visually distinct without mixing poorly with their neighboring zones. This mostly hasn't been the case anymore for years because the environment artists got smarter about how biomes naturally blend into each other. If they were looking at ways to bring old zones more up-to-date then merging similar-looking zones, flattening out some of those mountains that separate them, and building more transitional sub-biomes in their place would be a very logical way to do it. It'd also have the added benefit of making the playable space larger, since a lot of those mountains were effectively unplayable areas anyway.

[Triceron]

Mop still had more subs than the alter expansions, wow had a time that it ha to drop, it could not sustain itself rly, yeah the theme isn't popular with edgy people, but that is not a msitake by itself and that is what im talking about

It's a mistake in that it was a risk that didn't have a significant payoff for all the effort that went into it. It wasn't a mistake of being terrible or mediocre, it's a mistake of being picking a theme that had mixed reception and was generally poorly received by the market they tailored it for.

I have doubts they would want to make this mistake again with doubling down on some Goblin and Gnome expansion, especially when they can simply introduce them as a supporting subtheme just as Mechagon came and went. Even Undermine can be introduced without being a 'Goblin expansion', simply by being a questing hub or a large neutral city, like a new Dalaran. The focus of the expansion's overall theme can easily be on the big new threat, whether it's more Old God shenanigans or the return of Azshara or whatever.

they did stories with goblins and gnomes, they sure can do with pandarens, it doesn't need to be an entire patch about then, theye ven tocuhed on pandren stuff with monk class hall shenanigans.

Problem is a neutrla race ina faction where they kill each other is DOA.

That's the problem isn't it? They didn't even continue the Aysa-Ji stories at all. They just dropped it entirely. Hard. These characters have become absolutely insignificant even though they're our Pandaren connections to each faction.

Their story is DOA because Blizzard doesn't want to draw attention to them at all. Being a neutral faction has nothing to do with it since they already introduced them as rivalling tribes. They even wrote in a falling out between the two characters. But they ended up having the two characters show empathy for each other, and that's pretty much where the entire Pandaren story starts and ends. Otherwise the NPCs just appear at certain major events without contributing any significant story. They're just there for the sake of it, which is pretty much all the reason we have for why Pandaren are even playable right now. The sake of it.

[Nyel]

What? The Shadowlands, Kul Tiras, and Zandalar were absolutely features in their respective expansions. As was Draenor, Pandaria, and Northrend. They were features because they were new places that we had never seen before. We've already seen Lordaeron many times over. Turning the grass from brown to green and adding new quests isn't going to keep people's interest, as Cataclysm proved.

Sorry, I really don’t follow your logic here. New zones are not features. They’re new content. And a revamped Lordaeron would be exactly that. I mean you even listed Draenor which is just Outland B.C. - they could do the same to Lordaeron, it could be completely altered after the Scourge has been purged and cities and places rebuilt etc.

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Honestly, if gnomes get fucked over AGAIN when there's a world revamp, I'll snap.

I know this sounds harsh, but nobody cares about Gnomes. Or Goblins.

It’s not my opinion. I think both races should have their own stories expanded. But the overall playerbase just actively dislikes them, Gnomes more than Goblins even. Just look at the Mechagnomes disaster as AR. A gigantic flop.

[Grimbold21]

Sorry, I really don’t follow your logic here. New zones are not features. They’re new content. And a revamped Lordaeron would be exactly that. I mean you even listed Draenor which is just Outland B.C. - they could do the same to Lordaeron, it could be completely altered after the Scourge has been purged and cities and places rebuilt etc.

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I know this sounds harsh, but nobody cares about Gnomes. Or Goblins.

It’s not my opinion. I think both races should have their own stories expanded. But the overall playerbase just actively dislikes them, Gnomes more than Goblins even. Just look at the Mechagnomes disaster as AR. A gigantic flop.

Gnomes are the only race towards which genocide is acceptable.

Blizzard should combine cross-faction with Warmode just so Horde can kill gnomes while having their cross-faction enabled

This reminds me that, if there are two players of the same faction with warmode on, and one of them has cross-faction on, the player who doesn't have it enabled should be able to attack the one who has it on.