Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

Ok which leak said Anduin has ptsd and leaves turalyon to go all light hitler

[draugril]

I agree wholeheartedly that the Alliance needs to be in an antagonist role, I was just saying making Turalyon a loot pinata and Stormwind a raid feels like it's going too far in the way of mirroring it.

I mean, if they can mirror Garrosh up to the finale and spare Sylvanas, I suppose they can give Turalyon the same treatment.

[Nymrohd]

BTW, what happened to your original account?

OK so I don't get banned for ban evasion, I was NOT banned, I had it deleted because I was extremely disappointed by Off Topic moderation (Was very active there). I tried to come back once after some time and was immediately banned (Even though as I said, I was not ban evading given I had my account deleted and my account was NOT banned at the time that happened) so I just left the forum for a long while since it kind of reinforced my opinion about the forum. Only came back for THIS thread because I enjoy the people here.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I mean you can, you just need to make an effort. Planescape completely overexposes the afterlife and the realms of the Gods for Dungeons and Dragons. Yet it actually considers the implications. The dead are just that, dead. Most of them never change, they just exist in the realms of the dead until they reach some enlightenment and merge with reality but none of them actually can affect the world. That task is entirely up to the locals and those mortals who traveled the planes. Blizzard with Shadowlands seems so thoughtless with how their choices can affect the setting. Random civilians can take a portal to the afterlife . . .

Frankly, Planescape sets the bar for interdimensional fantasy in my mind. Old lore was actually setting it up pretty well with the eventual Army of the Light and end to the Burning Crusade—the issue is we got that in one expansion and it felt too standard. It should've been something very big to go to another world and end the Burning Legion for good. They should've felt stronger, more overarching, and more important. Instead, we just got another sequence of loot pinatas.

I'd say that we sort of crossed a line the moment that we went to another planet than Azeroth or Outland. The story should've been a bit more consistent in its gradual escalation rather than end up lurching abruptly forward into complete cosmic tomfoolery, which eventually made Shadowlands a problem. Even going to Argus or meeting the Army of the Light should've been a massive deal that carried a whole expansion.

I'd also say that the way they handled the Science Fiction elements could've taken more from Planescape, too. As far as I'm concerned, the Legion started to just feel like alien invaders and not like proper interplanar demons. I much prefer Planescape's way of doing all of this.

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I mean, if they can mirror Garrosh up to the finale and spare Sylvanas, I suppose they can give Turalyon the same treatment.

Aren't you insinuating precisely the idea I was communicating, though? That it's all for fairness' sake?

[Nymrohd]

I'd say I much preferred the original idea—that the Light itself was intrinsically good but some of its followers were so zealous they could use it anyway out of sheer dedication, like the Scarlet Crusade. The idea that harnessing the Light was a matter of willpower was far more interesting than "lol look we did a postmodern!!!"

Also, I'd disagree that holiness means nothing. There's a pretty strong meaning to that for me.

Well I'd say THAT is post modern because the meaning of holiness is very much defined by culture. But that's off topic.

And yeah I like that approach too, I've seen it in other fantasy settings and it works. Having a Divine power that doesn't actually have to do with ideology but rather with faith and conviction.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Honestly? I'm down for a Light-based expansion. I just don't want it to be the next one.

I'd be down for it if they did it well. But I worry they're either gonna do BFA 2.0 or WoD 2.0 depending on if they want to put Turalyon on the box or Y'rel.

Like if they want to do the Light well, I think you cannot use the Army of the Light as your villain. Because then it just becomes "we've seen this story before."

[Catastrophy349]

It's hard to believe we're just 3 weeks from the announcement, now.

[Nymrohd]

Frankly, Planescape sets the bar for interdimensional fantasy in my mind. Old lore was actually setting it up pretty well with the eventual Army of the Light and end to the Burning Crusade—the issue is we got that in one expansion and it felt too standard. It should've been something very big to go to another world and end the Burning Legion for good. They should've felt stronger, more overarching, and more important. Instead, we just got another sequence of loot pinatas.

I'd say that we sort of crossed a line the moment that we went to another planet than Azeroth or Outland. The story should've been a bit more consistent in its gradual escalation rather than end up lurching abruptly forward into complete cosmic tomfoolery, which eventually made Shadowlands a problem. Even going to Argus or meeting the Army of the Light should've been a massive deal that carried a whole expansion.

I'd also say that the way they handled the Science Fiction elements could've taken more from Planescape, too. As far as I'm concerned, the Legion started to just feel like alien invaders and not like proper interplanar demons. I much prefer Planescape's way of doing all of this.

Argus just failed in that regard indeed. It entirely felt like a sci fi setting with Legion space ships and technology. Instead of building on the monstrous nature of what was happening (Legion "tech" is entirely built on enslaving populations and then sacrificing them to burn their souls as fuel) the aesthetic was far more scifi than demonic.
I think this was a problem with both Legion and BfA. Their final patches needed to be actual expansions. I actually think it was even worse with Argus than with N'zoth. The scale was just too small. The Legion just fell over. The Army of Light was not at all impressive; instead of something grand it was a struggling tiny force of Draenei with some token characters thrown in; made no sense why they would even survive unless the Legion just did not consider them a threat (which given their scale, they shouldn't; we were vastly more impressive than the Army of Light).
Argus could have had multiple biomes, be besieged by both Light and Void at the same time and by grand forces on both sides and still be winning until we show up and tip the balance. And have the Army of Light actually composed of multiple races and have like 2-3 Tempest Keep sized battleships.

[draugril]

Aren't you insinuating precisely the idea I was communicating, though? That it's all for fairness' sake?

Sure, but not for the petty reasoning you insinuated. I want both factions and the characters therein to have equitable attention and development. And given the structure of the game, you need to position someone from a faction as an antagonist so you can create conflict and dedicate resources to exploring the repercussions of that conflict, building your characters in contrast to your antagonist, spotlighting the antagonist themselves, and adding all the fluffy worldbuilding to support this narrative.

The Alliance, as a whole, is a passive entity. But the storytelling in WoW has never been "slice of life," checking in to see how the crops are growing or whatever. The world's narrative is driven by conflict, for conflict you need an active agent, and by-and-large, active agents are antagonistic. If the Alliance every wants to see legitimate development that goes beyond reactionary at best (like Tyrande) to passive observers at worst (like Velen), they need that internal driving antagonistic force.

It's not simply "we had to fight our leaders so you need to fight yours!" It's not tit-for-tat. You asked for elaboration of this line of thinking, I provided.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Sure, but not for the petty reasoning you insinuated. I want both factions and the characters therein to have equitable attention and development. And given the structure of the game, you need to position someone from a faction as an antagonist so you can create conflict and dedicate resources to exploring the repercussions of that conflict, building your characters in contrast to your antagonist, spotlighting the antagonist themselves, and adding all the fluffy worldbuilding to support this narrative.

The Alliance, as a whole, is a passive entity. But the storytelling in WoW has never been "slice of life," checking in to see how the crops are growing or whatever. The world's narrative is driven by conflict, for conflict you need an active agent, and by-and-large, active agents are antagonistic. If the Alliance every wants to see legitimate development that goes beyond reactionary at best (like Tyrande) to passive observers at worst (like Velen), they need that internal driving antagonistic force.

It's not simply "we had to fight our leaders so you need to fight yours!" It's not tit-for-tat. You asked for elaboration of this line of thinking, I provided.

Alright, that's fair enough, but I never denied any of that—in fact, some of that is what I was saying. I don't see why that might necessitate a Siege of Stormwind, though.

[Nymrohd]

One idea for a future expansion (not 10.0) would be to merge Light with an Outland Revamp by having Yrel's forces somehow MERGE Outland and Draenor, having parts of their world superimposed on our timeline's Draenor. So it could have things like Karabor but also keep Netherstorm (a revamped Netherstorm!), it could show us what Yrel's side was talking about; their Draenor dying presumable because of something the orcs did (or X'era did and blamed it on them). So not just more zones on Draenor but a revamp that merges both locations in one space in the main timeline.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Argus just failed in that regard indeed. It entirely felt like a sci fi setting with Legion space ships and technology. Instead of building on the monstrous nature of what was happening (Legion "tech" is entirely built on enslaving populations and then sacrificing them to burn their souls as fuel) the aesthetic was far more scifi than demonic.
I think this was a problem with both Legion and BfA. Their final patches needed to be actual expansions. I actually think it was even worse with Argus than with N'zoth. The scale was just too small. The Legion just fell over. The Army of Light was not at all impressive; instead of something grand it was a struggling tiny force of Draenei with some token characters thrown in; made no sense why they would even survive unless the Legion just did not consider them a threat (which given their scale, they shouldn't; we were vastly more impressive than the Army of Light).
Argus could have had multiple biomes, be besieged by both Light and Void at the same time and by grand forces on both sides and still be winning until we show up and tip the balance. And have the Army of Light actually composed of multiple races and have like 2-3 Tempest Keep sized battleships.

I would say that I very much agree—an expansion on Argus would be very excellent, indeed. Although it would somewhat cause some of the same issues as Shadowlands did in regards to cosmic exhaustion, I do think it could've given us much more in the way of interesting, fantastical adventures there.

I could imagine us on a massive, sprawling fortress with our Argussian allies—the Army of the Light, consisting of all races we've ever seen as well as Lightforged Draenei, Nathrezim and even Mo'arg forming a frontline against the Legion. The Legion could've looked more like something out of 40k (which, somehow, would make it look more fantasy), with gargantuan fortresses made of corpses and living materials, souls streaming through them. We could've also seen the industrial side of the Legion and even their civilian side—Mac'aree, besieged, could've been a great city of golden towers and opulence which is gradually crumbling under the bombardment of the Army of the Light and the Void. The Army of the Light, instead of a few survivors, would've consisted a truly massive army capable of standing toe-to-toe with the Legion on fairly even ground.

I could see many fascinating zones, plotlines, and cosmic worldbuilding opportunities coming out of it. Instead, we got "space lol so sci-fi". The worldbuilding could've even been a good time to introduce the whole geometry theme, as well as potentially spotlight the Light and Void as the top forces in the same role as Blizzard later shoved the First Ones into in Shadowlands. There could've been so much in the way of interesting development for a "proper" cosmic expansion played like a real fantasy setting like Planescape instead of a cheap Science Fantasy thing. The Legion's aesthetic is one very good point—I dislike their aesthetic just being "green and black towers lol". I picture something properly evil, massive fortresses made of skin and spines and whathaveyou, as well as a dark red color scheme that feels more like an evil realm in fantasy. Similarly, the Army of the Light could've taken a full geometry motif rather than just being "Yellow Draenei", with the Naaru's design inspiring flying fortresses and even cities of white, floating crystals and unique and possibly only pseudo-Euclidean geometry.

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One idea for a future expansion (not 10.0) would be to merge Light with an Outland Revamp by having Yrel's forces somehow MERGE Outland and Draenor, having parts of their world superimposed on our timeline's Draenor. So it could have things like Karabor but also keep Netherstorm (a revamped Netherstorm!), it could show us what Yrel's side was talking about; their Draenor dying presumable because of something the orcs did (or X'era did and blamed it on them). So not just more zones on Draenor but a revamp that merges both locations in one space in the main timeline.

That could be interesting. I'd say that Draenor could've just been used, though. So much was underutilized and underexplored that we could get something interesting out of just returning, I think.

[Catastrophy349]

One idea for a future expansion (not 10.0) would be to merge Light with an Outland Revamp by having Yrel's forces somehow MERGE Outland and Draenor, having parts of their world superimposed on our timeline's Draenor. So it could have things like Karabor but also keep Netherstorm (a revamped Netherstorm!), it could show us what Yrel's side was talking about; their Draenor dying presumable because of something the orcs did (or X'era did and blamed it on them). So not just more zones on Draenor but a revamp that merges both locations in one space in the main timeline.

Not bad ideas; however, I would prefer a Northrend revamp/revisit over Outland, again, since we had both Outland and Draenor.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I saw someone on reddit mention there was a leak on this site that correctly guessed Sylvanas' punishment

Everyone and every leak predicted it.

[Sondrelk]

Alright, that's fair enough, but I never denied any of that—in fact, some of that is what I was saying. I don't see why that might necessitate a Siege of Stormwind, though.

The Siege of Orgrimmar raid migh have seemed like a hit to the Horde on the surface, but on a purely developer attention level 5.4 is the most Horde biased patch the game has ever seen. The questing leading up to the raid barely even acknowledged teh Alliance existed, and Orgrimmar as a city got a whole ton of attention, from upgrades to broken buildings, NPC events, and heavy useage of lesser known NPCs.

The Alliance being hit with the villain bat would be annoying for sure, but it would be balanced out by actually giving a whole lot of focus to the Alliance as a whole, in addition to really showcasing Stormwind and it's many NPCs.
Maybe we have an expansion to the catacombs, or raidbosses in the unused Stormwind Vault raid. Maybe we see various NPCs who are reallyy jsut there to sput single voicelines take a stand, joining us heroically or maybe even turn against us.

Really, a Stormwind raid would just be a cool idea. Especially when you consider that the odds of the Alliance getting hit squarely by the villain bat is quite low, so we would probably mostly just get the upsides. The Horde gets to attack Stormwind and maybe get themed gear. The Alliance gets to see Stormwind from a different angle. And Stormwind as a city would likely get lots of development.

[Nymrohd]

I would say that I very much agree—an expansion on Argus would be very excellent, indeed. Although it would somewhat cause some of the same issues as Shadowlands did in regards to cosmic exhaustion, I do think it could've given us much more in the way of interesting, fantastical adventures there.

I could imagine us on a massive, sprawling fortress with our Argussian allies—the Army of the Light, consisting of all races we've ever seen as well as Lightforged Draenei, Nathrezim and even Mo'arg forming a frontline against the Legion. The Legion could've looked more like something out of 40k (which, somehow, would make it look more fantasy), with gargantuan fortresses made of corpses and living materials, souls streaming through them. We could've also seen the industrial side of the Legion and even their civilian side—Mac'aree, besieged, could've been a great city of golden towers and opulence which is gradually crumbling under the bombardment of the Army of the Light and the Void. The Army of the Light, instead of a few survivors, would've consisted a truly massive army capable of standing toe-to-toe with the Legion on fairly even ground.

I could see many fascinating zones, plotlines, and cosmic worldbuilding opportunities coming out of it. Instead, we got "space lol so sci-fi". The worldbuilding could've even been a good time to introduce the whole geometry theme, as well as potentially spotlight the Light and Void as the top forces in the same role as Blizzard later shoved the First Ones into in Shadowlands. There could've been so much in the way of interesting development for a "proper" cosmic expansion played like a real fantasy setting like Planescape instead of a cheap Science Fantasy thing. The Legion's aesthetic is one very good point—I dislike their aesthetic just being "green and black towers lol". I picture something properly evil, massive fortresses made of skin and spines and whathaveyou, as well as a dark red color scheme that feels more like an evil realm in fantasy. Similarly, the Army of the Light could've taken a full geometry motif rather than just being "Yellow Draenei", with the Naaru's design inspiring flying fortresses and even cities of white, floating crystals and unique and possibly only pseudo-Euclidean geometry.

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That could be interesting. I'd say that Draenor could've just been used, though. So much was underutilized and underexplored that we could get something interesting out of just returning, I think.

I always had this pet theory that the Army of Light could have been where the Apexis Arakkoa ended up. We have a faction of extremely advanced Light users who specialize in using Crystals in their technology and disappeared while planning to build a "Temple in the Sky". Instead of all the Naaru tech being . . . Naaru (how do they even make things? No hands!) it could have been that they recruited the Apexis long ago and that their tech was made by them.

[Nymrohd]

Not bad ideas; however, I would prefer a Northrend revamp/revisit over Outland, again, since we had both Outland and Draenor.

I just think Outland has some of the most unique zones in WoW that could most profit from a graphics revamp. Can you imagine Netherstorm built with modern graphics?

[Sondrelk]

I saw someone on reddit mention there was a leak on this site that correctly guessed Sylvanas' punishment, and I seem to remember seeing it as well, it was posted around a month or two ago I believe which was way before any of it was datamined.

Which one was that?

Sylvanas punishment was basically determined to be this from the second we got the datamined voiceline from Sylvanas that she would search for Nathanos forever in the Shadowlands.
And that was ages ago, extremely early in the 9.2 PTR.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I always had this pet theory that the Army of Light could have been where the Apexis Arakkoa ended up. We have a faction of extremely advanced Light users who specialize in using Crystals in their technology and disappeared while planning to build a "Temple in the Sky". Instead of all the Naaru tech being . . . Naaru (how do they even make things? No hands!) it could have been that they recruited the Apexis long ago and that their tech was made by them.

I like that idea a lot. It also could've been used to introduce winged Arakkoa as a race to one faction or the other.

[Cherry123]

The book says that Anduin went on a journey with Sylvanas.

then why does he need a new model in 9.2.5