Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Wangming]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

Hard agree. Honestly there are some specs that just feel redundat. Like, do we really need three dual wielding, combo point using, dps rogue?

[Tiradon]

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.

Yeah account wide reps would be amazing… Especially in a given game based so much around nostalgia & legacy

[Archmage Xaxxas]

Some of my musings the past year, thought I'd share in light of Dragonflight:


1. Vanilla - HvA/External Threats/Adventure Basics.

2. The Burning Crusade - Venture off-world to another realm.

3. Wrath of the Lich King - Visit the legendary/famed continent of Northrend.

4. Cataclysm - World Revamp, 'vanilla 2'

^^ Note this as a legend of the expansion categories, and a pattern that will reoccur.
MoP and WoD are combo-outliers.

Mists of Pandaria - Visit legendary/famed continent Pandaria, HvA/External Threats/Adventure basics

Warlords of Draenor - Venture off-world, mild themes of 'revamp' or 'vanilla' for Draenor and Adventure Basics.(and character models.)

Legion - Visit famed 'continent' The Broken Isles, Big Finish.


I find thinking of Legion as the intended end of the cycle helps here, since the plan was probably MoP -> Legion before WoD was thought up.

Under this pretense, we can look at BfA being the cycle beginning anew.
I want to clarify I understand Zandalar and Kul Tiras are famed continents, however, they are used to echo Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms respectively in 201X graphics fashion for new players.
Thus I consider BfA the 'vanilla' of this cycle, and it may add up why in a moment:


1. Battle for Azeroth - HvA/External Threats/Adventure Basics

2. Shadowlands - Venture off-world to another realm.

3. 10.0 - Visit the legendary/famed continent of "?????"

4. 11.0 - World Revamp 'vanilla 2(squared)'

Now read the wordings of points 1 through 4 on both 'cycles' and you'll see what I'm getting at.


Dragonflight being leaked kind of shows that 10.0 will -probably- be:
"3. Dragonflight - Visit the legenary/famed continent of The Dragon Isles."

and that lines up with hopes/wants/suspicions for a 20th Anniversary World Revamp, so yes a bias take.

[Blayze]

Four one-spec classes sounds unusual, and Blizzard don't really do unusual; we're far more likely to see every potential microclass or new class idea become essentially a glyph for an existing class or spec, if only because it's easier.

[KayRule]

I would have absolutely zero issue with dual spec classes.

Single spec classes are not the answer nor the solution though. As outlined in my previous edited post.

You make some fair and well thought out points. But I disagree entirely that single spec classes are a good idea. They are a huge problem waiting to happen

Dual spec is a happy medium.

I will concede, I don't objectively think it is a perfect solution. My response to them in the leak is that they are "bold". It is a "bold" attempt at taking a sledgehammer to a constantly growing problem - one that directly impacts the ability for us to get new classes and archetypes at a pace beyond a quarter of a decade apart.

It may not be correct, but as most criticisms I see seem to be a pedestrian "wait...number smaller..." response, I feel like some people are too focused on feeling like they're getting less content than to see the bigger picture.

[Kiria]

Four one-spec classes sounds unusual, and Blizzard don't really do unusual; we're far more likely to see every potential microclass or new class idea become essentially a glyph for an existing class or spec, if only because it's easier.

They can't get by on easier anymore, they need to impress the playerbase and entice lost ex addicts back.

[Santandame]

Hard agree. Honestly there are some specs that just feel redundat. Like, do we really need three dual wielding, combo point using, dps rogue?

No, we don't in respect of this. Assassination and Sub could be rolled into one spec/theme. Outlaw is fine as it is. A third spec for a Rogue could and would ideally be a tank based Rogue centered around evasion, or a Bard as a healer/dps hybrid.

Fire Mage isn't really necessary either as I feel like Destro Warlock fits the same theme and aesthetic. So for Mage instead of Fire, we could have Chronomancer as a healer, or a Blood Mage as a healer.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.

Leveling is easy I'm more talking about yeah Reps. Also Campaign progress and AP grind progress.

A better way to get gear for alts by playing your main would be nice too. Like how in 14 you can do dungeons on DPS to get points to buy tank gear for your alt class.

[Nymrohd]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

I do think a large part of why that has happened is the endgame systems. The classes were expanding organically up until MoP. They did the prune in WoD which was unfortunate for some specs but most of them still kept most of their identity and played well. Then in order to integrate artifacts they redesigned everything. And that ended up working as well; imo by the end of Legion almost every spec was in a good or great place and the specs that had issues were few enough that they could have worked on them for the next xpac.
But then came the decision to toss all the artifact design out of the window. To be replace by Azerite traits which were again tossed of the window. To be replaced by conduits which WILL again be tossed off the window.

You know what system worked? Essences. It was an involved system that allowed many layers of choice without completely redefining how classes worked. A system that you could remove and while classes would feel weaker, they'd still largely play the same. But no, we keep getting everything redesigned every xpac. All their effort tuning and adjust over two years reset time and again.

[Santandame]

I do think a large part of why that has happened is the endgame systems. The classes were expanding organically up until MoP. They did the prune in WoD which was unfortunate for some specs but most of them still kept most of their identity and played well. Then in order to integrate artifacts they redesigned everything. And that ended up working as well; imo by the end of Legion almost every spec was in a good or great place and the specs that had issues were few enough that they could have worked on them for the next xpac.
But then came the decision to toss all the artifact design out of the window. To be replace by Azerite traits which were again tossed of the window. To be replaced by conduits which WILL again be tossed off the window.

You know what system worked? Essences. It was an involved system that allowed many layers of choice without completely redefining how classes worked. A system that you could remove and while classes would feel weaker, they'd still largely play the same. But no, we keep getting everything redesigned every xpac. All their effort tuning and adjust over two years reset time and again.

BfA had its issues, I however was a big fan of essences and would welcome them back; same with Artifacts from Legion.

[Nymrohd]

Hard agree. Honestly there are some specs that just feel redundat. Like, do we really need three dual wielding, combo point using, dps rogue?

I am still surprised that they did not squash subtlety and assassin together and add a sniper spec as a third spec.

[SniperCT]

Why are people so obsessed with new classes

No, we don't in respect of this. Assassination and Sub could be rolled into one spec/theme. Outlaw is fine as it is. A third spec for a Rogue could and would ideally be a tank based Rogue centered around evasion, or a Bard as a healer/dps hybrid.

Both like and hate this idea. I would love a tank spec for Rogue, but assassination and sub have very different playstyles. I'm not sure how to reconcile that. Like I prefer the first of the two but know people who love sub. They play differently though.

[Kiria]

Leveling is easy I'm more talking about yeah Reps. Also Campaign progress and AP grind progress.

A better way to get gear for alts by playing your main would be nice too. Like how in 14 you can do dungeons on DPS to get points to buy tank gear for your alt class.

Yes absolutely, FFXIV seems to have nailed the alt friendlyness by eliminating alts altogether and it works extremely well.

[Magenugget]

Im all for the micro classes, it would be very similar to FFXIV then the only thing we are missing is being able to do multiple classes on 1 character

You guys do realise that lowering the barriers of class swapping just forces the perceived meta even more right? We all know that if class X spec Y is the best possible choice to fill a slot, groups will not be satisfied with anything else when people just have to talk to an NPC or hit a button to switch to that spec. Everybody who has played a traditionally off-meta spec knows this.

[Wangming]

No, we don't in respect of this. Assassination and Sub could be rolled into one spec/theme. Outlaw is fine as it is. A third spec for a Rogue could and would ideally be a tank based Rogue centered around evasion, or a Bard as a healer/dps hybrid.

Fire Mage isn't really necessary either as I feel like Destro Warlock fits the same theme and aesthetic. So for Mage instead of Fire, we could have Chronomancer as a healer, or a Blood Mage as a healer.

Yeah definitely. It's like you read my mind. It's either this, or single specs.

[Kiria]

You guys do realise that lowering the barriers of class swapping just forces the perceived meta even more right? We all know that if class X spec Y is the best possible choice to fill a slot, groups will not be satisfied with anything else when people just have to talk to an NPC or hit a button to switch to that spec. Everybody who has played a traditionally off-meta spec knows this.

The playerbase is majority casual and honestly not all of them go meta, this is the great thing about FFXIV if you want to be meta you can if you want to play the class you enjoy then you just play it, it works well in FFXIV why wouldnt it here?

And what's your point exactly? Let hardcore raiders worry about that. Casual fans will happily play around with the exploration content with their preferred class.

Absolutely this, Thank you @Wangming

[Wangming]

You guys do realise that lowering the barriers of class swapping just forces the perceived meta even more right? We all know that if class X spec Y is the best possible choice to fill a slot, groups will not be satisfied with anything else when people just have to talk to an NPC or hit a button to switch to that spec. Everybody who has played a traditionally off-meta spec knows this.

And what's your point exactly? Let hardcore raiders worry about that. Casual fans will happily play around with the exploration content with their preferred class.

[Nymrohd]

BfA had its issues, I however was a big fan of essences and would welcome them back; same with Artifacts from Legion.

Essences are imo the best endgame system they have designed. Very modular, leading to engagement in multiple types of content, with a unique cosmetic reward with legendary essences, easy to expand upon, common to all specs. And so many of them were actually getting used; far more successful than e.g. talents. Most important of all; they did not completely change the way your class played; sure some of them modified it but not to the extent that removing essences made the specs not recognizable like Artifacts and even Azerite traits did.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are people so obsessed with new classes



Both like and hate this idea. I would love a tank spec for Rogue, but assassination and sub have very different playstyles. I'm not sure how to reconcile that. Like I prefer the first of the two but know people who love sub. They play differently though.

And that's why we have a talent system. Both playstyles could exist in one spec and depend on talents that are actually transformative. It has been done before. Think of e.g. WoD Spriest. Talent choice completely changed your playstyle.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Why are people so obsessed with new classes



Both like and hate this idea. I would love a tank spec for Rogue, but assassination and sub have very different playstyles. I'm not sure how to reconcile that. Like I prefer the first of the two but know people who love sub. They play differently though.

It's the easiest thing in that leak to point to and say "obvious fake." Which leads then to the discussion of "Well if it's true what the hell is Blizz smoking?"

[Fahrad Wagner]

And what's your point exactly? Let hardcore raiders worry about that. Casual fans will happily play around with the exploration content with their preferred class.

Fell off my chair, this so much haha