Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[SniperCT]

I absolutely wanted housing back then. I came from Ultima Online and it was just part of an MMO to me.

Nowadays... I still think it's a good idea, but my feelings on it have gotten a lot more complicated.

I used to hate any instanced housing system. To me the whole point of a house in an MMO was to feel like you were living in the world. Obviously, as MMOs got mainstream, that stopped being feasible just on a practical level, but the culmination for me no longer wishing for that was Shroud of the Avatar. That game tried to compromise a bit, where the game world was not explored freely, but on a map. In this way, players could make villages, that would appear on that map. This allowed for there to be both a way to instance the housing into those villages, but put them on the map like any other location so they felt equally like a part of the open world.

I liked that idea. The problem, for me, was that every one of these villages I visited were min-maxed for the sake of showcasing the player vendors. When every village in your medieval fantasy game looks like a shopping mall from Second Life, I didn't feel like I was playing a game anymore.

Of course, part of that also relates to how much control you have over the housing, which can be another complex topic. Personally, I would like something in-between. Too little control over the house or the decorations and it all sort of feels pointless (especially when it's instanced), too much and I'm never going to feel like I can actually make anything with it unless I hire someone to help me.

I think it could really breathe new life into World of Warcraft though. In the past, Blizzard has experimented with things like the Music Rolls or Battle Pets in old dungeons or zones. Player housing would be a way to do that permanently and perpetually. I mean, who is going to go back and get a Music Roll for their one-expansion-only Garrison? Music Rolls for player housing, however, is something that would be permanently meaningful content. There are a million things you could add this way, from little doodads, to Music Rolls, to mounted heads of old bosses to put on your wall, the possibilities are endless.

It absolutely needs to be personal though. Guild Halls always sound like a good idea, but I've never seen them implemented in a way that doesn't just create awkward have and have-not systems that arbitrarily punish different kinds of players. One of the most common ways this happens is by not having any of the Guild Hall stuff scale. In other words, the big guilds have no problem maxing everything out instantly, but a smaller guild of close friends can basically never actually do anything with their Guild Hall, if they can ever afford to build/buy one to begin with.

I farm up music rolls for my apartment in my guild's house in FF14! It's a lot of fun, and trust me when I say it's a hugely popular thing to farm for, alongside appearances and pets. (And a guild hall in that game is the same price/plot of land as a large house, so is generally reachable eventually by most guilds.) (just address the difficulty in getting a house, and it would be perfect imo)

And in lotro I was able to afford a guild house for a tiny 3-person guild relatively easily. So it can be done. And in both games most players generally focus on making things look cool rather than be efficient or min-maxing (I remember the towns in SWG, very heavily focused around vendors)

In Lotro you can put crafting benches and the like into houses. I still see a lot of activity at the crafting areas in the cities though, so I don't think it really affected that kind of thing too much. Maybe a solution in WoW would be an area inside a neighborhood for crafting. Phase it in a way where it's shared with all the neighborhoods so players can still be social and see each other.

Either that or simply don't allow it.

ETA: Having an instanced apartment in a guild hall for players would in fact be something they absolutely need to lift. Give a player a room, much cheaper than a house, and inside their guild house.

[Sharby]

I'm waiting for something to happen with Gilneas for almost 12 years. If it does, I'm gonna shave my head. And I love my long hair.

But it ain't gonna happen, so I'm safe.....right?

Gilneas full update and revamp..



..but it's just a dungeon with Greymane as the final boss.

[Amstrup]

1 man dungeons that let me farm gear would be enough casual concept for me.
A mix between torghast and mage tower.

[Shadochi]

1 man dungeons that let me farm gear would be enough casual concept for me.
A mix between torghast and mage tower.

You mean extend the exile reach dungeon to other dungeons?

[SniperCT]

Gilneas full update and revamp..



..but it's just a dungeon with Greymane as the final boss.

Alliance main for life and I would be first in line. I hate that character with the passion of a thousand dying stars.

[Amstrup]

You mean extend the exile reach dungeon to other dungeons?

Could be, but with higher difficulty ofc.

[Jokubas]

I guess I'm not saying that Guild Halls shouldn't exist at all, but that player housing that any player can have and enjoy without having to answer to anyone else is a must.

For the most part I think Lord of the Rings Online's neighborhoods is the way to go, with the decoration system of another game. I wouldn't mind something like, each Neighborhood has a huge castle/mansion slot that can only be purchased by a guild, and people can have apartments there, but everyone being able to have a house independently from that is a must. Not just because it makes the feature more relevant for more people more easily, but because that makes anything that cascades from that system (like earning decorations) meaningful for everyone as well.

Speaking of Lord of the Rings Online, they had neighborhoods for... what? Each starting area, and they've added a couple since?

One of the things I've been bracing myself for with a World of Warcraft housing system since forever, is that it'll launch with just "Alliance" (Stormwind) and "Horde" (Orgrimmar) variants, and maybe get a weird, expansion-specific option every once and awhile. Of course, the proliferation of Allied Races has made something like "a neighborhood type for each race" a bit crazy, but it would be nice to at least launch with options themed for the original launch races at minimum, just to give some real variety.

[SniperCT]

I guess I'm not saying that Guild Halls shouldn't exist at all, but that player housing that any player can have and enjoy without having to answer to anyone else is a must.

For the most part I think Lord of the Rings Online's neighborhoods is the way to go, with the decoration system of another game. I wouldn't mind something like, each Neighborhood has a huge castle/mansion slot that can only be purchased by a guild, and people can have apartments there, but everyone being able to have a house independently from that is a must. Not just because it makes the feature more relevant for more people more easily, but because that makes anything that cascades from that system (like earning decorations) meaningful for everyone as well.

Speaking of Lord of the Rings Online, they had neighborhoods for... what? Each starting area, and they've added a couple since?

One of the things I've been bracing myself for with a World of Warcraft housing system since forever, is that it'll launch with just "Alliance" (Stormwind) and "Horde" (Orgrimmar) variants, and maybe get a weird, expansion-specific option every once and awhile. Of course, the proliferation of Allied Races has made something like "a neighborhood type for each race" a bit crazy, but it would be nice to at least launch with options themed for the original launch races at minimum, just to give some real variety.

Lotro started with elf/hobbit/human/dwarf. They added gondorian housing near Dol Amroth, Rohan housing and most recently lonely mountain housing(premium dwarf housing at any rate, I forget exactly where). Those last 3 are real money only though. I have a lifetime sub so I basically got a free house in rohan right now lol

I think most players would be disappointed if there was only human and orc to start with. At the very least the launch races/TBC races. They can consider adding for allied races over time. (I mean KT and Zandalari kind of already have great places to drop a neighborhood in their capital cities I feel, and Worgen and Pandarans both have areas they could put housing I think. It's just the art effort)

Maybe human/orc + the most popular races on each faction that aren't humans or orcs. So Belves and probably Nelves? Then over patches and in later expansions they could add more. Though I wouldn't mind a house in Kul Tiras.

Some neutral locations that would be nice could include Dalaran, a rebuilt Shattrath, or somewhere in the valley of the four winds. Dalaran writes itself, a place thats bigger on the inside than the outside!

I'd love to see them bring back farming with this. FF14 has gardens you can tend for your house, for example.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

1 man dungeons that let me farm gear would be enough casual concept for me.
A mix between torghast and mage tower.

Eff it, just implement the Trust System from the FF MMOs.

[Jokubas]

I think most players would be disappointed if there was only human and orc to start with. At the very least the launch races/TBC races. They can consider adding for allied races over time. (I mean KT and Zandalari kind of already have great places to drop a neighborhood in their capital cities I feel, and Worgen and Pandarans both have areas they could put housing I think. It's just the art effort)

Yeah, I mean, there are a million places in Warcraft that I would consider having a house. It obviously will start small, but I hope that it doesn't just grow over time to new places, but doesn't start too small either because yeah, most players would be disappointed if it was only human and orc, but it's a pattern the game has followed for many other systems so it's something I want to brace for.

[SniperCT]

Eff it, just implement the Trust System from the FF MMOs.

While I think certain parts of the wow player base would freak out, I think that would end up being a net positive. I don't use it much myself, but a lot of people do and most of them still do dungeons with other players too.

[Niwes]

What I was saying was that there is a significant population that would be pleased by this, far more than you indicated. These are not exact numbers and are dramatically reduced by WoW Analytica's data collection methods. If there were actually only 15k people that would benefit it would be a terrible investment, but I was using that as generalized evidence that there exists an audience for it. Outside of the dominant faction of the largest roleplaying realm's Alliance guilds (I don't recall precisely how WoW Analytica calculates guild numbers, but I think it's based on raiders alone, so this is even then only likely a small portion of the guilds on Alliance-MG) there are even more guilds with many members on other servers (even some non-roleplay servers) and on other factions that may benefit from player housing.

I figure that the number of guilds on roleplaying realms total would definitely justify guild halls as an addition, as well as the fact that there are surely some guilds on non-roleplaying guilds that would benefit from them. I believe that the total amount of people who would benefit from guild halls is actually quite large.

The investment into guild halls would also surely not be as large as you're making it out to be. Instanced, alterable environments would not require that much in the way of resources and time to make—we've seen private servers create alterable environments with far less in the way of resources, and guild-based instanced environments wouldn't be hard to make at all.

well written and i can not really disagree. foremost since wow was built up over many many years as a place where everyone find it’s niche. regardless if raids, dungeons, pvp, quests, pet battles, mounts, achievements, guilds, ah trading or roleplay. wow offers A LOT to MANY different ppls. and i assume that’s one of the biggest problem for Blizz, and often the root of many problems. it’s hard to cater to a such broad and diverse audience. but it was Blizz that started offering everyone something. now they also should handle it, instead of just milking the cow the cost effective way.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

While I think certain parts of the wow player base would freak out, I think that would end up being a net positive. I don't use it much myself, but a lot of people do and most of them still do dungeons with other players too.

I mean given the state of WoW's playerbase I think a lot of folks would love the ability to farm dungeons (normal/heroic of course definitely not mythic or mythic+) (on which note can we just do away with the formality of heroic continuing to exist?) without hearing "pull pull pull faster faster faster omg this isn't fast enough /quit"

[SniperCT]

Yeah, I mean, there are a million places in Warcraft that I would consider having a house. It obviously will start small, but I hope that it doesn't just grow over time to new places, but doesn't start too small either because yeah, most players would be disappointed if it was only human and orc, but it's a pattern the game has followed for many other systems so it's something I want to brace for.

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

I still remember when they said we could move our Garrison and I was excited to put mine in Talador.

So much potential in the base-building side of Garrisons that got utterly trashed and buried under the mission table and the profession stuff.

[Chickat]

*back when vanilla was developed*

doesnt really says nothing?


Blizzard had this map too



uhh zandalar a bit off the chart isnt?

Dire Maul in Northern EK lmao.

[SniperCT]

I mean given the state of WoW's playerbase I think a lot of folks would love the ability to farm dungeons (normal/heroic of course definitely not mythic or mythic+) (on which note can we just do away with the formality of heroic continuing to exist?) without hearing "pull pull pull faster faster faster omg this isn't fast enough /quit"

I never ran mythics at all (let alone +s) lol so I don't know what I'd do if there were no heroics. So farming dungeons with a trust would be nice.

I kind of wish FF14's trust let you duo that way. Go in with my wife and fill out the last 2 slots, instead of having to solo it.

eta: I COULD do mythics I just don't like them

[Jokubas]

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

Garrisons are definitely one of the biggest examples that was in my mind the whole time I was writing.

I still remember when they said we could move our Garrison and I was excited to put mine in Talador.

So much potential in the base-building side of Garrisons that got utterly trashed and buried under the mission table and the profession stuff.

Every once and awhile I'll see someone say that Garrisons "prove" that player housing is a failed idea in World of Warcraft. It always drives me nuts because Garrions were pitched much closer to player housing. I myself even sort of accepted them as "Warcraft's answer to player housing, via an RTS base" sort of thing, which I even thought was kinda neat.

But the things that made Garrisons most like player housing, like being able to put the Garrison in your favorite zone, and I feel like there was even the implication that they might add more building variety, were all removed long before we got our hands on them. I remember suggesting that pre-Warlords of Draenor zones get "Garrison plots" so we could carry our Garrison beyond the expansion, but even placing them where we wanted in Draenor never happened!

If anything, the disappointment in Garrisons is proof of an audience for player housing, not proof that a stripped down wannabe player housing is equivalent.

[Niwes]

No one will ever be truly satisfied by a game that is made by everyone. That's just the fact of the matter. But people can still enjoy what there is in the game.

When all the story is being locked behind end game group content that is meant to be made repeatable, it alienates the majority of the player base who would rather unsub than go through those hoops. Most people who do LFR don't actually enjoy the experience enough to stay subbed for the long run either. LFR is a stopgap that has fostered a new type of end-game progression, but still alienates the majority who simply would rather solo to enjoy the story, or worse yet, watch it all on youtube instead. While LFR is good for a wide audience, it's not an ideal solution.

Solo content and solo raids would be much more ideal.



Again, not mutually exclusive.

A simple solution that already exists in other MMO's I've played is simply have a tangential Story Mode raid that is designed for solo-type play.

Have a solo raid designed to be Epic Quest level difficulty, with appropriate LFR-like rewards. Have it be the same raid as designed for group play, but with followers and named NPCs supporting you, similarly to Mage Tower. Have gimmick mechanics that focus on having the player simply survive the raid and complete each boss encounter as a means to completing the story and quest; Blizzard can tune the challenge to allow super-casuals to breeze through, or tune up the difficulty and allow players to learning the actual mechanics of the raid at their own pace. There are dual benefits to having this system, and having it play-at-your-own-pace removes the stress and pressure of players who aren't confident joining group content because they don't know the mechanics.

It's win-win. I mean you ever solo'd an old raid? No one yells at you for screwing up Heigan's safety dance when you solo it. You get all the chances you need to practice it on your own. But you'd never be able to practice it in normal circumstances without progressing to it normally and having to have everyone else stop at this boss and not kill him in order to allow you to practice.

I think if Blizzard opened up solo raids, it would help boost the standard of people actually attempting group content. And if not, it can remain as a solo-viable experience for anyone who chooses to use it in this way. Anyone who still wants to get gear and progress through the game can still do so with Group content, which remains the most relevant end-game content there is. Just having a solo option with its own rewards and progression doesn't change that any more than us talking about having Mythic Dungeons or PVP Arenas.



That would be Blizzard's biggest concern. I don't think they've ever been legitimately challenged as the 'MMO-Champion' as much as they have in recent years. Shadowlands still turned up record-breaking numbers, but also was the first real time some long-term players left for other games. This will be a challenge for Blizzard, and it's ultimately up to them to decide which audience to focus on since they have all the data.

I just think that everything we have in WOW is pretty ass-backwards when all the biggest conclusions to the story in the game is locked behind Raids. I can't even introduce new players to the game knowing that most of the old raid storylines are all locked behind raids that they can't even attempt without having someone higher level help breeze them through it. I don't agree with the design, and honestly, we're at a point in time where changes can be made.

Otherwise, Blizzard is totally fine with keeping the cycle going and alienating most of the casual fans and letting them be reoccurring bi-yearly subbers, while only focusing on keeping the raiders happy. I just think it's going to bite them in the ass once they realize some casuals may not come back at all if they start investing in other games which actually appeal to casual sensibilities.

I mean, even Gabe Newell, longtime WoW player, has decided to quit with Shadowlands. To me that's big news, cuz I see him as being a pretty big example of a casual 'whale' who comes back every expansion to do the new stuff, even if he's not a hardcore raider or whatnot. But for him to even leave when the expansion was still relevant is kind of telling that Blizzard needs to step up and bring back the casuals. Cuz the competition has risen the bar, and I don't think WoW can't just win back the casuals who have left for other games just by doing what they've always been doing.

IMO, it's more of a pillar of gaming they need to reassess, rather than just any one particular feature like 'Solo Raid' or 'Epic quests'. Even crafting and professions have become less relevant as expansions have moved on, with more focus being put back into parasitic design or grindy systems like conduits. And frankly, I don't think that really appeals to casuals at all. They really need to nail down what casuals actually want to do.

Collecting. Story content. Solo-repeatable content. That's what I think they need to focus on.

Comparable ilvl gear to Mythic Raids? Making less raid content? These are pointless fears since adding more solo content has no real impact on how Raids progress right now. We've had compelling solo end game content in the game before, and it's never been a problem.

also rather well written and i 100% agree to storytelling in raids. i never get why they did this, since day1. raids and dungeons should be playable content. for gameplay. story should be telled in quests and solo game designs. for „hanging around in a living and breathing world“, made for outdoor adventure immersion. i not agree to everything you said, in detail. but to a lot of your points i have a surprisingly same opinion.

[SniperCT]

Garrisons are definitely one of the biggest examples.

Every once and awhile I'll see someone say that Garrisons "prove" that player housing is a failed idea in World of Warcraft. It always drives me nuts because Garrions were pitched much closer to player housing. I myself even sort of accepted them as "Warcraft's answer to player housing, via an RTS base" sort of thing, which I thought was kinda neat.

But the things that made Garrisons most like player housing, like being able to put the Garrison in your favorite zone, and I feel like there was even the implication that they might add more building variety, were all removed long before we got our hands on them. I remember suggesting that pre-Warlords of Draenor zones get "Garrison plots" so we could carry our Garrison beyond the expansion, but even placing them where we wanted in Draenor never happened!

If anything, the disappointment in Garrisons is proof of an audience for player housing, not proof that a stripped down wannabe player housing is equivalent.

I remember all of that, including building types. Then they obviously redirected resources (probably to Legion) and it all fell through.

I despise the way they abandon concepts to expansions. Farming in MoP, garrisons, artifacts, etc.

If they ever add sailing like I want I just know it'll be abandoned instead of expanded upon.