Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Fair, though I can't really explain why he did that either.

Honestly I hope they were either testing that and the reception of the announcement gave them the answer or that Ion could not shoot it for some reason at the time (I mean it could be so many things, maybe he had COVID or something).

[Revamp Man]

Fair, though I can't really explain why he did that either.

because they knew where the story was going and Ion threw the script down saying "DAN GET IN HERE!! You are going to be the one announcing this i dont want anything to do with it...i have to go get carried through normal sanctum now"

[draugril]

I mean in terms of cosmic force theme. Dragons are connected to Life.

Some dragons are.

[huth]

i see deth and arcane as neutral.

See, Arcane is order, order is balance, the true order or balance should be something neutral, not too lawful neither too chaotic. Death is the ultimate neutral thing, you die, you are not lawful neither chaotic, its the only path of action, true neutrality.

Void also is more a lawful force than chaos being opposed to light with their own agenda.

No, i don't, because that runs counter to the definition of balance. Balance does not mean everything is in order. It means they're in equal measure. Which explicitly includes Disorder when it comes to the cosmic forces. Order strongly indicates lawfulness, everybody playing by the rules.

And we just got to see how rules-abiding Death is.

Void is not lawful at all. They're explicitly "anything goes, everything is valid" as part of their base values.


You're using completely off-kilter definitions for lawful and balance here. I can't even figure out what lawful is supposed to be in your mind, but it appears you're setting the requirements way to high.

[Revamp Man]

so heres some storylines we already know about
twilight flight
infinite flight
chromatic flight
black dragons
all through island expeditions

now some other storylines that may be connected with the dragon expansion via the island expedition story is
vykrul
firelands

im certain theres probably more but those are just off the top of my head

[Skildar]

DnD has definitely not delivered a final view. Even in the main canon we very clearly are told that this is how the planes are NOW and that they have been different before and may be different again. We know the inner planes were different, the outer planes appeared one by one and some have changed significantly (Arcadia lost an entire layer, the Abyss has eaten entire worlds from the prime, Baator was completely different before the Fall, Elysium has an entire plane that is locked). But beyond that they keep reshaping the planes to fit the story they want to tell, exactly as Blizzard has done. Significant retcons (4E) were met with great derision while pushing timelines forward so as to improve themes (Zariel in 5E) were largely accepted.
And then there is Eberron which has an entirely different planar structure. Which was entirely created to support the story as well.

Blizzard has no consistency in how they deliver their story because they don't seem to know what story they want to tell.

You say this but they do release guide and manuals delivering final version of how the world works. And these books are the reference for whichever version of DnD you choose to play. They do craft official stories around this but the way the world works is definitive for a specific version

[Raetary]

the sun is also a big deal for blelves
we have the sunbathed furline

might get to meet some of the life pantheon

A big deal that was never really explored.
The Belves started to praise the Sun to distance themselves from Nelven Elune worship, but Blizzard never actually bothered to actually do anything with it.

That bit essentially just exists to explain away their color scheme.

[Syegfryed]

It is not accurate as it is from the point of view of the titans who know a lot more than mere humans about the cosmos but still don't know everything. You should ask for it to not be accurate but that when titans were wrong it makes sense for them to have made the mistake.

Thats the problem with making the book that was supposed to be "lore bible" a joke, nothing there can rly be taken serious unless another source agree with that.

DnD have layed their cosmology from a creator perspective. They want people to be able to craft stories which legitimately take place within their world, they have no incentive on not delivering a full final view of what is and how it works. In the warcraft universe, it is Blizzard who crafts the story and expands its lore. Submit your work to blizzard if you want to make sure that they can happen within their world.

The cosmology from D&D is more of a paint that you can edit at your own accord, they set the setting and you use what you want/what fits better, and things can change all the time, Warcraft devs simple doesn't care about consistency in their own universe.

Which is the difference here, D&D build upon the set of established cosmology, warcraft edit/retcon as they go.

- - - Updated - - -

A big deal that was never really explored.
The Belves started to praise the Sun to distance themselves from Nelven Elune worship, but Blizzard never actually bothered to actually do anything with it.

That bit essentially just exists to explain away their color scheme.

Thats because they don't actually praise/worship it, its just a symbol

[Wangming]

Yeah sure why wouldn't you want to see the chad Ybarra - he would prolly announce a groupfinder tab for selling stuff.

Tbf I just hope it's like the 9.2 video with a lots of different people and neither Ion nor Ybarra.

It will be Yoshi-P revealing 10.0

[Syegfryed]

No, i don't, because that runs counter to the definition of balance. Balance does not mean everything is in order. It means they're in equal measure. Which explicitly includes Disorder

Which means neutrality

You can't have much order or disorder, otherwise you end up lawful or chaotic.

Void is not lawful at all. They're explicitly "anything goes, everything is valid" as part of their base values.

void ultimate goal is to turn everything to void, its their "law", their basis they have ways to archieve their goal, seems lawful to me, akin to the devils in D&D who also redesign creation.

You're using completely off-kilter definitions for lawful and balance here. I can't even figure out what lawful is supposed to be in your mind, but it appears you're setting the requirements way to high.

Like i said, im taking account more D&D style of alignment to base the different forces, i don't see light and void as ultimate opposites like fel and arcane, but more two faces of the same coin.

[Skildar]

Which is the difference here, D&D build upon the set of established cosmology, warcraft edit/retcon as they go

Where do you draw the line between the two?
When does it feel like letting the story play itself with its different actors and when does it feel like someone's changing the rules?

I've always felt like Blizzard is making their world grow more and more each expansion passing. They definitely retconed in the past, but today it is less obvious. I'm not counting jailer-denathrius-nathrezim story types as retcon as ut is unknown being filled/explained. Just like Pandaria-Mogu-Lei Shen fit in the gaps with Uldum and the Zandalari.

It feels the same ti me between DnD and Warcraft. Both have laid forces and characters whose traits are leading are leading the story and making evolve and progress all the while exposing and revealing new forces and characters.

[Raetary]

It will be Yoshi-P revealing 10.0

And the cinematic trailer will be 10 minutes long, there'll be a rock remix of Legends of Azeroth playing in the background, Alexstrazsa will narrate the whole thing while the camera shows off the Dragon Isles and we get close up shots of each relevant character saying a one-liner about how there's still much to explore on Azeroth.

[Wangming]

Where do you draw the line between the two?
When does it feel like letting the story play itself with its different actors and when does it feel like someone's changing the rules?

I've always felt like Blizzard is making their world grow more and more each expansion passing. They definitely retconed in the past, but today it is less obvious. I'm not counting jailer-denathrius-nathrezim story types as retcon as ut is unknown being filled/explained. Just like Pandaria-Mogu-Lei Shen fit in the gaps with Uldum and the Zandalari.

It feels the same ti me between DnD and Warcraft. Both have laid forces and characters whose traits are leading are leading the story and making evolve and progress all the while exposing and revealing new forces and characters.

To me the problem is that they are reanswering questions that people were completely fine with. Arthas got a completely satisfying end in Wrath. An emotional farewell that is still quoted to this day. Did we really need to learn that he was controlled by zombie pickard through the helmet? And it was totally the helmet, not the sword. Which is why it is odd that Anduin got a new sword and not a new Helmet. And despite not being actually evil and just a victim of the Jailer's control his soul was still used to corrupt Anduin and......ugh. You get it.

This is why Pandaria worked so well? it didn't reanswer questions that already had satisfying conclusions.

[Hitei]

The cosmology from D&D is more of a paint that you can edit at your own accord, they set the setting and you use what you want/what fits better, and things can change all the time, Warcraft devs simple doesn't care about consistency in their own universe.

Which is the difference here, D&D build upon the set of established cosmology, warcraft edit/retcon as they go.

D&D literally alters fundamental ways its universe works and retcons major things with each edition, what are you even talking about?

[Cosmic Janitor]

To be honest, the comsic forces stuff seems awfully inconsistent by now. Both Arcane/Order and Fel/Disorder seem to be in large parts represented in the Light and Void respectively. Heck, even the shadowlands were extremely structured, literally filing souls away, while life seems inherently chaotic (as was a theme with the curse of flesh originally). So both Order and Disorder seem very redundant and at best an explanation for niche forces of magic, at least when it comes to their core tenets/characteristics. I mean maybe the point here was to group these forces together in two intersecting mirrored triangles, but given we've already learned about the Zereths, it's implied the whole cosmos is heavily strucutred, including the "outer" forces.

[Wangming]

And the cinematic trailer will be 10 minutes long, there'll be a rock remix of Legends of Azeroth playing in the background, Alexstrazsa will narrate the whole thing while the camera shows off the Dragon Isles and we get close up shots of each relevant character saying a one-liner about how there's still much to explore Azeroth.

How many years have I waited for this day? For the one that stood against the storm. The one they call, the Priestess of Elune.

This tragedy even greater than the fiasco of WoD, must be undone. If history is to be unwritten, let it be unwritten. Become what you must. Become the Warrior of Night!

[Syegfryed]

Where do you draw the line between the two?
When does it feel like letting the story play itself with its different actors and when does it feel like someone's changing the rules?

i personally draw the line when they make a book that is supposed to be the "word of good', aka chronicles, and immediately says isn't anymore, and go wild changing that.

If you are going to expand, create upon an idea, don't lock yourself into something, don't give hard on answer if you are not sure about the direction of the game, or in this case, don't make cosmological chart if its going to be invalided some time later with a "7th force" or how shadowlands and emerald dream are now different things

I would prefer if they work in the cosmology with that image as base, not changing on top of it, like shadowlands and emerald dream were apparently, something else, now what we got in shadowlands

D&D literally alters fundamental ways its universe works and retcons major things with each edition, what are you even talking about?

in different edition yes, because they are different games all together, they don't retcon, afaik, things in the same edition.

Editions are not expansions.

[Nymrohd]

i personally draw the line when they make a book that is supposed to be the "word of good', aka chronicles, and immediately says isn't anymore, and go wild changing that.

If you are going to expand, create upon an idea, don't lock yourself into something, don't give hard on answer if you are not sure about the direction of the game, or in this case, don't make cosmological chart if its going to be invalided some time later with a "7th force" or how shadowlands and emerald dream are not different things

I would prefer if they work in the cosmology with that image as base, not changing on top of it, like shadowlands and emerrald dream were apaprently, something else


in different edition yes, because they are different games all together, they don't retcon, afaik, things in the same edition.

Editions are not expansions.

And heck, FR tried. They had a Chronicle type book released late in 3E before 4E blew the setting up. But when 5E came they did not just reset everything. They did not retcon everything. Rather they tried and found pieces of lore from the past to restore the setting to where it was (while keeping a few of the parts of 4E that were more welcome).

Meanwhile WoW released the Chronicle, which very much was presented as definitive when it was released and NO EFFORT was made to present it as from the viewpoint of the Titans (look at Elder Scrolls on how one can present history and lore subjectively, they do it masterfully for decades now) only for them to start and retconning things immediately leading to them having to pretend it was always meant to be subjective.

[Dracullus]

Any fresh ideas what pre-order bonus could be? So far I saw only theory about Dark Rangers and encrypted Tirisfal content (and since DR is not connected to dragons, my own bias tell me it must be sign of class skins coming). But I'm open to different suggestions.

[Nymrohd]

Any fresh ideas what pre-order bonus could be? So far I saw only theory about Dark Rangers and encrypted Tirisfal content (and since DR is not connected to dragons, my own bias tell me it must be sign of class skins coming). But I'm open to different suggestions.

If they do add a new class and the plot allows it, I'd love early access. I still have no idea why they did not give early access to Monks and Pandaren.