Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Raetary]

You gotta love those replies all shitting on retail WoW's awful story. This might be the only place in existence that still gets excited for this shlock.

Can't you do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and not waste your time on a franchise you clearly despise?

[huth]

I'm sticking with my theory of a time-based theme for next expansion based on the interviews. From the interview:

A note in Tazavesh mentions a possible seventh cosmic force. Time will tell whether the scribe has lost their mind. or if it leads to something more substaintial!

Would maybe have more impact if it wasn't a common turn of phrase. You've probably invested magnitudes more thought into this than the person that said it.

[hipolnalrt]

To all the people upset about the story being about the cosmos, literally every expansion has expanded on our understanding of the cosmos.

BC - Burning Legion, and the Light
WotLK - Ulduar and the Titans and the void
Cata - Old gods, void, some Emerald Dream stuff
MoP - Titans and old god/void
WoD - Burning Legion and some void and light stuff

You get it.

[Edward Wu]

Can't you do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and not waste your time on a franchise you clearly despise?

When one is utterly infatuated with a product to the point of obsession, balanced regard for it must look like utter hatred and contempt in comparison.

Compare that to the excellent story of TBC. Not to mention, they need to bring it back to Azeroth's traditional Gothic Fantasy routes, not like the Science Fiction-influenced High Fantasy it is now. I am glad that TBC's story was in such an excellent place and it really allowed us to see the full, traditional fantasy of Azeroth in a classically fantastical, yet down-to-earth, setting, and where the old characters were so deeply-respected.

Binary thinking is pretty funny to witness, despite its commonality. The herd is getting agitated again.

[therumblings]

utterly infatuated with a product to the point of obsession

Pot meet kettle

[TomatoBisque]

Pot meet kettle

he's just a neutral, dispassionate observer that happens to hang around forever with a product that he's deemed trash

no emotional attachment at all, yep

[Edward Wu]

Pot meet kettle

Let's be real here, you've never had a pulse on me or any cogent point at all and are only mad because I'm ruining your safe space.

S'okay, just be honest about it instead of playing the midwit.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Compare that to the excellent story of TBC. Not to mention, they need to bring it back to Azeroth's traditional Gothic Fantasy routes, not like the Science Fiction-influenced High Fantasy it is now. I am glad that TBC's story was in such an excellent place and it really allowed us to see the full, traditional fantasy of Azeroth in a classically fantastical, yet down-to-earth, setting, and where the old characters were so deeply-respected.

......Rofl no TBC's story was hitting scif-i levels. Once you go to other planets you are touching science fiction, no ifs about it. Also Illidan's story was turned around acted like he was the bad guy. Legion actually fixed it instead of "I AM INSANE CAUSE I LOST TO ARTHAS."

Killing Illidan like in TBC was a big waste. He was used mostlY "RAID BOSS OF A WCIII character."

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Let's be real here, you've never had a pulse on me or any cogent point at all and are only mad because I'm ruining your safe space.

S'okay, just be honest about it instead of playing the midwit.

This isn’t a “safe space”. We also hate the plot and are perpetually bitching about it. We just bitch about anything in particular instead of going on nonsensical and entirely circular NPC rantings. Your contributions to this forum could be exceeded by a bot, and it would likely have more developed argumentative skills than you do.

[Nagawithlegs]

The WoW community has really imploded into terribleness lately. Content drought + COVID is a bad combination.

I've never seen the community this bad and troll-y, not even during BFA or WOD. What is happening that is causing so many people to lose their shit?

[Edward Wu]

This isn’t a “safe space”. We also hate the plot and are perpetually bitching about it. We just bitch about anything in particular instead of going on nonsensical and entirely circular NPC rantings. Your contributions to this forum could be exceeded by a bot, and it would likely have more developed argumentative skills than you do.

He says as he proceeds to prove me completely right by becoming immediately defensive and mad and resorting to playground insults.

Love it! You're doing just great.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

......Rofl no TBC's story was hitting scif-i levels. Once you go to other planets you are touching science fiction, no ifs about it. Also Illidan's story was turned around acted like he was the bad guy. Legion actually fixed it instead of "I AM INSANE CAUSE I LOST TO ARTHAS."

Killing Illidan like in TBC was a big waste. He was used mostlY "RAID BOSS OF A WCIII character."

That’s the point. It’s sarcasm. I hope that it has made an introduction to you.

Yes, I was pointing out how the plot has always been both bad and prone to spacey shenanigans. I advise you develop the bare minimal EQ to comprehend sarcasm without the necessity for audible tone.

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He says as he proceeds to prove me completely right by becoming immediately defensive and mad and resorting to playground insults.

Love it! You're doing just great.

Make a cognizant argument. It is much easier to do so than just whinge incessantly and produce snark.

[Edward Wu]

Make a cognizant argument. It is much easier to do so than just whinge incessantly and produce snark.

"I demand to be taken seriously!"

Before that, ask yourself why you warrant any effort on my part, first. I have absolutely no desire to engage with internet randoms in pointless debate when I can simply amuse myself and point out absurdities in your replies, instead. Doubly so with people who've already entered into a bad faith argument with me from the get-go.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

"I demand to be taken seriously!"

Before that, ask yourself why you warrant any effort on my part, first. I have absolutely no desire to engage with internet randoms in pointless debate when I can simply amuse myself and point out absurdities in your replies, instead. Doubly so with people who've already entered into a bad faith argument with me from the get-go.

There are no absurdities in my argument to point out. You are making nonsense comments entirely divorced from the matter at hand.

Add to this how, if the consensus among people who otherwise seem to agree with you remains that you are still obnoxious and utterly inane, you are probably obnoxious and inane. Eventually, there’s a point where you’ve got to admit that it’s not that everyone else is conformist sheep, but that you’re just the outlier. Drop the Ben Shapiro shtick, you’re the one spouting absurdities.

Firstly, you simply can’t make claims without supporting them. If you have even the most passing education in critical thinking, you should be able to produce a pretty simple argument. I’m not asking you to debate me, I am asking you to give me the framework—even a single sentence—to support your claims. Obviously, if you do nothing but spout hearsay in the most obnoxious possible tone, people will expect you to support your claims.

Add to this, we’re on an Internet forum. If you are on a forum, that rather naturally implies a willingness to engage in discussion. This isn’t a blog. You are expected to engage in discussion on a discussion forum.

[Sondrelk]

Seems like the latest interview makes it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Sylvanas is going to survive the end of the raid. I guess then the only question left is whether she will have a redemption arc now or later.

Personally I hope she gets away to an increasingly tenous relationship with the Jailer. Would be fitting punishment for her character who prides herself on being in control, even compared to a threat like the jailer to be forcibly humbled, potentially even having ot swallow her pride and accept judgment to get even close to her ideal version of events.

For a curveball twist going forward I am going to predict right here and now that it will be Sylvanas that is instrumental in helping us find and free Arthas. If Sylvanas should get anything close to a redemption then she should be able to prove it by helping Arthas.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Seems like the latest interview makes it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Sylvanas is going to survive the end of the raid. I guess then the only question left is whether she will have a redemption arc now or later.

Personally I hope she gets away to an increasingly tenous relationship with the Jailer. Would be fitting punishment for her character who prides herself on being in control, even compared to a threat like the jailer to be forcibly humbled, potentially even having ot swallow her pride and accept judgment to get even close to her ideal version of events.

For a curveball twist going forward I am going to predict right here and now that it will be Sylvanas that is instrumental in helping us find and free Arthas. If Sylvanas should get anything close to a redemption then she should be able to prove it by helping Arthas.

Well, that would have a bit of a peculiar message in it, wouldn’t it? Add to that I simply couldn’t feasibly imagine Sylvanas doing anything good to do with Arthas, even though I may be putting too much faith in Blizzard.

It would be nice to see Sylvanas sidelined, given how egotistical she is. I would say that if they give Sylvie some buildup to betraying the Jailer, it would be quite a helpful alteration of the current sequence of roller coaster plotlines where everything happens at once. However, it should simultaneously be kept in mind that Blizzard does seem to prefer the roller coaster, specifically focused on the “oomph” moments. I do figure not having Sylvie betray the Jailer after her fight in SoD could reduce the oomph of the aftermath of the fight.

Then again, I must emphasize I still prefer the latter, despite the latter seeming more Blizzardesque. If it were the former,
that could indicate a positive alteration in Blizzard’s general collective skills of story composition. Overall, the current lot have surprisingly improved from their prior state circa 9.1., so I have some (minimal) faith in the writers.

Conversely, I still could feasibly see them doing a redemption in which the victim of a genocide is forced to forgive the person responsible for her genocide to make up for her own genocide. Although it would give some relatively sufficient equivalent exchange for her potential redemption, it would still be pretty awkward, which sadly isn’t far off from Blizzard’s usual standard.

[Nagawithlegs]

Seems like the latest interview makes it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Sylvanas is going to survive the end of the raid. I guess then the only question left is whether she will have a redemption arc now or later.

I honestly don't think she'll get a redemption arc. From the sound of that one Alleria fairy tale, the Sylvanas we know isn't "the real one" because the Jailer has her soul shard.

Maybe this version of Sylvanas dies and is something like Uther, a bad half? It would explain why the Sylvanas that comes back from her suicide is almost purely negative/spiteful. The "future of Sylvanas" could be that other half of her.

[Sondrelk]

Well, that would have a bit of a peculiar message in it, wouldn’t it? Add to that I simply couldn’t feasibly imagine Sylvanas doing anything good to do with Arthas, even though I may be putting too much faith in Blizzard.

It would be nice to see Sylvanas sidelined, given how egotistical she is. I would say that if they give Sylvie some buildup to betraying the Jailer, it would be quite a helpful alteration of the current sequence of roller coaster plotlines where everything happens at once. However, it should simultaneously be kept in mind that Blizzard does seem to prefer the roller coaster, specifically focused on the “oomph” moments. I do figure not having Sylvie betray the Jailer after her fight in SoD could reduce the oomph of the aftermath of the fight.

Then again, I must emphasize I still prefer the latter, despite the latter seeming more Blizzardesque. If it were the former,
that could indicate a positive alteration in Blizzard’s general collective skills of story composition. Overall, the current lot have surprisingly improved from their prior state circa 9.1., so I have some (minimal) faith in the writers.

Conversely, I still could feasibly see them doing a redemption in which the victim of a genocide is forced to forgive the person responsible for her genocide to make up for her own genocide. Although it would give some relatively sufficient equivalent exchange for her potential redemption, it would still be pretty awkward, which sadly isn’t far off from Blizzard’s usual standard.

The thing about Sylvanas helping redeem Arthas is that by her getting a redemption you essentially prove that Arthas is more worthy of one.

Pretty much all the material released in the runup to SL onwards has hammered in more that Arthas was at worst being manipulated by the Jailer. The worst possible scenario currently possible is that teh Jailer made Arthas go insane, and pretty much all more realistic estimates of his influence points to Arthas if not being directly controlled at least heavily manipulated at all times. See for instance the Short story released before SL that pertains Bolvar giving in to the power of the Jailer to defeat Sylvanas with the knowledge and intent that he will be unable to stop himself from becoming teh new Lich King proper.

Blizzard has already painted themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. There is no way they are getting out of tarnishing her character. If they amp up her evil actions then she is insane, if they give her a redemption arc then it would make her seem insane AND schizophrenic in actions. If they give her a redemption by way of secret good soul split then they cheapen and essentially ruin her entire character since WC3.
Having her accept rescuing Arthas because of an understanding that they were both tools for the Jailer at least only requires saying Sylvanas is narcissistic enough to think she was the smartest person ever. Not to mention it would ever so slightly redeem her actions in BfA as being done by someone who thinks she is smarter than she is instead of a genius.


Of course, the writing for Sylvanas is at the point whereexpectations for even a halfway coherent and decent narrative is thrown out the window, so I would not be surprised if Blizzard steers her story into the treshing machine instead of the dumpster by the end.

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I honestly don't think she'll get a redemption arc. From the sound of that one Alleria fairy tale, the Sylvanas we know isn't "the real one" because the Jailer has her soul shard.

Maybe this version of Sylvanas dies and is something like Uther, a bad half? It would explain why the Sylvanas that comes back from her suicide is almost purely negative/spiteful. The "future of Sylvanas" could be that other half of her.

This would only work in the same way that if you found another character named Anduin then you have saved his character.

The "evil" Sylvanas is at best the one we have known since Cata, and most likely the one we know from WC3. It wouldnt be saving her character, it would be resetting her character and pretending it somehow translates to the character we know.

We could free the good Sylvanas and send her to heaven or whatever but it wouldnt be redeeming Sylvanas, it would be saving a soul with a name we know from WC3. No more important in the grand scheme than saving Anesterian or Terenas or what have you.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The thing about Sylvanas helping redeem Arthas is that by her getting a redemption you essentially prove that Arthas is more worthy of one.

Pretty much all the material released in the runup to SL onwards has hammered in more that Arthas was at worst being manipulated by the Jailer. The worst possible scenario currently possible is that teh Jailer made Arthas go insane, and pretty much all more realistic estimates of his influence points to Arthas if not being directly controlled at least heavily manipulated at all times. See for instance the Short story released before SL that pertains Bolvar giving in to the power of the Jailer to defeat Sylvanas with the knowledge and intent that he will be unable to stop himself from becoming teh new Lich King proper.

Blizzard has already painted themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. There is no way they are getting out of tarnishing her character. If they amp up her evil actions then she is insane, if they give her a redemption arc then it would make her seem insane AND schizophrenic in actions. If they give her a redemption by way of secret good soul split then they cheapen and essentially ruin her entire character since WC3.
Having her accept rescuing Arthas because of an understanding that they were both tools for the Jailer at least only requires saying Sylvanas is narcissistic enough to think she was the smartest person ever. Not to mention it would ever so slightly redeem her actions in BfA as being done by someone who thinks she is smarter than she is instead of a genius.


Of course, the writing for Sylvanas is at the point whereexpectations for even a halfway coherent and decent narrative is thrown out the window, so I would not be surprised if Blizzard steers her story into the treshing machine instead of the dumpster by the end.

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This would only work in the same way that if you found another character named Anduin then you have saved his character.

The "evil" Sylvanas is at best the one we have known since Cata, and most likely the one we know from WC3. It wouldnt be saving her character, it would be resetting her character and pretending it somehow translates to the character we know.

We could free the good Sylvanas and send her to heaven or whatever but it wouldnt be redeeming Sylvanas, it would be saving a soul with a name we know from WC3. No more important in the grand scheme than saving Anesterian or Terenas or what have you.

Arthas wasn’t being manipulated by the Jailer, though. He purged Stratholme on his own, was consumed by vengeance on his own, burned down ships on his own, and picked up Frostmourne and left Muradin to die on his own. He’s still a pretty bad guy to start. Add to this how it’s explicitly indicated that all the Lich Kings, Arthas included, defied the Jailer. If the Jailer had total control over anyone who touches Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination, he’d have total control over Bolvar for the latter and the Deathlord themselves for the former (through the Blades of the Fallen Prince).

[Sondrelk]

Arthas wasn’t being manipulated by the Jailer, though. He purged Stratholme on his own, was consumed by vengeance on his own, burned down ships on his own, and picked up Frostmourne and left Muradin to die on his own. He’s still a pretty bad guy to start. Add to this how it’s explicitly indicated that all the Lich Kings, Arthas included, defied the Jailer. If the Jailer had total control over anyone who touches Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination, he’d have total control over Bolvar for the latter and the Deathlord themselves for the former (through the Blades of the Fallen Prince).

All the stuff up until he picked up Frostmourne he was manipulated into doing. He did them by his ow nchoice but still.

The thing is that we have no way of knowing when exactly the Jailer started directly manipulating him. It was extremely vague if he even did way back, but we can now infer from the Short Story that blue eyes are a telltale sign that the Lich King is being directly controlled.

The importnt distinction though is that the actions of Arthas after picking up Frostmourne are ambigious as to how involved he actually was. He could have done it entirely of hiss own volition, or he could have been directly controlled like Anduin is currently.
Personally I would imagine more of a case of being heavily goaded into doing something. At least with Bolvar he mentioned having ot fight off urges and commands from the Crown and therefore the Jailer constnatly, with each attempt at grasping more power from it just making him more and more susceptible to being controlled, with him being certain that once he defeated Sylvanas he would no longer be in control of his actions. Given how he thought it would go down it seems likely that he didnt mean he would be directly controlled, but rather that he would be essentailly powerless to stop hismelf from not doing what the Jailer asked of him.

Sylvanas meanwhile is always shown as not being mind controlled in any way. And in that case her actions far outweigh anything Arthas did, even as the Lich King. Arthas at worst only wanted to kill Azeroth, Sylvanas wanted to feed the souls of the dead to the Jailer for the purpose of killing everyone ever.


In short, if Sylvanas is redeemed then Arthas is going to be as well. There is no reasonable way to spin Arthas being in control while simultaenously saying Sylvanas wasnt. Even ignoring the heavy hints he was controlled in this very expansion he was only ever stated to be in control of his actions in the Arthas novel, which isnt really canon anymore insofar as the Jailer exists.