Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

Tazavesh use Oribos spot behind flight master, so still 2 free left. I know it's ultra minor point in "9.3 or not" discussion, but imo they would use one of 2 empty ones if they plan only one more zone at this point.

So last spot either for 9.3 (Icecrown?) or 9.2 could have 2 zones (inventors realm as Mechagon 2.0? could be, but imo Korthia+Tazavesh are 'Mechagon' for this expac).

[Nagawithlegs]

So Danuser is retconning cosmology to boost his own ego? Thanks, but this is so stupid and completely unnecessary.

No, it shows a Broker thinks that Death and Life are the most important cosmic aspects to contrast with the Titans thinking Light and Void are the most important aspects.

The underlying idea is that no two aspects are the "most important" and each cosmic force has different opinions on it.

[Ivarr]

So this means trolls had their own Hell and everything?

Wow Blizzard....

Yes! There are many afterlives, we're only seeing four fully developed. Ogres have their own afterlife. Shaman ancestors have their own afterlife. QUILBOAR have their own afterlife.

There's so many crazy zones that could've made it into the expansion. We just got the most dour and pedestrian of them all.

[Dracullus]

Yes! There are many afterlives, we're only seeing four fully developed. Ogres have their own afterlife. Shaman ancestors have their own afterlife. QUILBOAR have their own afterlife.

There's so many crazy zones that could've made it into the expansion. We just got the most dour and pedestrian of them all.

Would be cool if we would have mini-zones for other afterlives in Sepulcher, something like Legion invasions on Argus.

[Sondrelk]

YES! There are many afterlives, we're only seeing 4. Ogres have their own afterlife. Shaman ancestors have their own afterlife. QUILBOAR have their own afterlife.

There's so many crazy zones that could've made it into the expansion. We just got the most dour and pedestrian of them all.

We had to draw the line somewhere. At best we might have gotten something like Islands or Legion Invasion Points where Blizzard made simple zones from existing assets and called it Plain of the Hunters and we are left to assume that it where all the hunters are sent in the afterlife, or a place called Quilldor and that is where all Quillboar are sent.

Blizzard instead decided to make the Shadowlands infinite, but based around Oribos and 4 zones integral to the continued survival of the Shadowlands + The Maw.

[Nagawithlegs]

Yes! There are many afterlives, we're only seeing four fully developed. Ogres have their own afterlife. Shaman ancestors have their own afterlife. QUILBOAR have their own afterlife.

There's so many crazy zones that could've made it into the expansion. We just got the most dour and pedestrian of them all.

Why do you think that a single-race themed zone would be well received?

[Ivarr]

We had to draw the line somewhere. At best we might have gotten something like Islands or Legion Invasion Points where Blizzard made simple zones from existing assets and called it Plain of the Hunters and we are left to assume that it where all the hunters are sent in the afterlife, or a place called Quilldor and that is where all Quillboar are sent.

Blizzard instead decided to make the Shadowlands infinite, but based around Oribos and 4 zones integral to the continued survival of the Shadowlands + The Maw.

Naturally, I get that not every race or creed gets to have their own zone. But the Ancestral Plane and Ogri'La (the latter being more of a joke) being actually referenced in previous lore. It would've been so great to see a zone that wasn't up to their neck in all kinds of petty bullshit and actually exuded wisdom to all. An entire zone devoted to actually meeting shamanic spirits and going through their rites. It would've felt so different from the current zones, which all seem to share rather Western aesthetics together.

I was hoping the Ancestral Plane would be like Nazjatar. But I've given up that hope with all this rumouring about the Sepulcher.

Maybe in later expansions Blizzard will add more afterlives to (briefly) visit. That cat is out of the bag now. Great premise to go wild without breaking immersion.

Why do you think that a single-race themed zone would be well received?

I certainly wouldn't want to see the Shadowlands turn into some kind of zoo with races segregrated amongst each zone. It's just that some races happen to have such distinct notions of an afterlife that it would provided something entirely different than the four afterlives we have right now. Especially this noble savage fantasy trope can be explored to its fullest if we got to explore at least one of them.

These savage afterlives could even share the same 'pane', a cluster of islands being conceptually close enough that gameplay-wise they're one zone.

[Nagawithlegs]

I certainly wouldn't want to see the Shadowlands turn into some kind of zoo with races segregrated amongst each zone. It's just that some races happen to have such distinct notions of an afterlife that it would provided something entirely different than the four afterlives we have right now. Especially this noble savage fantasy trope can be explored to its fullest if we got to explore at least one of them.

These savage afterlives could even share the same 'pane', a cluster of islands being conceptually close enough that gameplay-wise they're one zone.

I will concede that the Shaman Afterlife is suspiciously absent and would scratch a big Horde itch that's missing this expansion, but I almost feel like it was done on purpose. Both due to the hidden elements-themed things in Bastion and the lack of shamans being mentioned ANYWHERE else. Also Baine's presence here at all (I don't think he even appears this patch)

I wouldn't be surprised if it pops up before the expansion is over... OR they decided to move it into the Lifelands/Gardens of Life.

[Revamp Man]

You are mixing up a lot of stuff here that doesn't make sense. Apart from the Arthas shenanigans, Zovaal isn't "keeper style", he is "titan style" (he even is called "brother" bei the other Eternal Ones), Argus was introduced to us as another titan, so as long as that isn't retconned, he is a being of order and not of death. If anyone is "death keeper" level, it's Helya or Mueh'zala with the latter already being a loa, but they seem to be on "keeper powerlevel"
Argus and Azeroth are world souls of titans that seem to be more powerful than our existing titans as far as we are told.

The eternal ones are created by the first ones

The eternal ones are the pantheon of death

Thus the pantheon of death is to the first ones what the titan keepers are to the pantheon of order


Argus has memory from “before memories began” and memory begins at the point time does which we are told started with the birth of the first titan of the pantheon

these are facts

Azeroth is referred to as a unique world soul

Our link to Azeroth is why we were able to use the waystones in the maw

Both of these are facts

Argus has an ability called the end of all things and has a link to the shadowlands in the fight

His world soul was also being used to constantly regenerate demons…..which is a power no others have shown

More facts

Now let’s get into speculation

Why is Argus able to do all this and why does he talk so similar to zovaal???
Probably the same reason why the pantheon needed help from mortals in order to defeat a weakened half born state of him….he’s the first one of death

Now to Azeroth
Why is her world soul unique?
Why was it so important for the pantheon to hide her when there’s more world souls out there?
Why is Zovaal going to claim her soul instead of any other world soul??

Possible answers are she is the first one of order



Now Zovaal also aims for the sepulcher right?? Not according to him
According to his lines he wishes to find what the first ones kept hidden and if it was simply the portal then they did a bad job at hiding it because the eternal ones always had the keys.

We are told time and time again he wants our world
In fact if you figure that Azeroth is what the first ones want hidden and that she is the first one of something other than order then it would reason that the true first one of order made the pantheon hide her “from sargeras” in order to keep balance

Zovaal made frostmourne and the helm of domination then had them given to a fallen titan of order who ended up putting them on Azeroth

[Dracullus]

Imo we didn't have such diverse looking world in any expac, even if we look at dominant color in each zone, we hit all main ones and more or less are equally distributed:

- Oribos - White
- Bastion - Yellow
- Maldraxxus - Green
- Ardenweald - Blue
- Ravendreth - Red
- Maw/Korthia - Orange/Brown
- Torghast - Black
- Tazavesh - Violet

[Revamp Man]

The eternal ones are created by the first ones

The eternal ones are the pantheon of death

Thus the pantheon of death is to the first ones what the titan keepers are to the pantheon of order


Argus has memory from “before memories began” and memory begins at the point time does which we are told started with the birth of the first titan of the pantheon

these are facts

Azeroth is referred to as a unique world soul

Our link to Azeroth is why we were able to use the waystones in the maw

Both of these are facts

Argus has an ability called the end of all things and has a link to the shadowlands in the fight

His world soul was also being used to constantly regenerate demons…..which is a power no others have shown

More facts

Now let’s get into speculation

Why is Argus able to do all this and why does he talk so similar to zovaal???
Probably the same reason why the pantheon needed help from mortals in order to defeat a weakened half born state of him….he’s the first one of death

Now to Azeroth
Why is her world soul unique?
Why was it so important for the pantheon to hide her when there’s more world souls out there?
Why is Zovaal going to claim her soul instead of any other world soul??

Possible answers are she is the first one of order



Now Zovaal also aims for the sepulcher right?? Not according to him
According to his lines he wishes to find what the first ones kept hidden and if it was simply the portal then they did a bad job at hiding it because the eternal ones always had the keys.

We are told time and time again he wants our world
In fact if you figure that Azeroth is what the first ones want hidden and that she is the first one of something other than order then it would reason that the true first one of order made the pantheon hide her “from sargeras” in order to keep balance

Zovaal made frostmourne and the helm of domination then had them given to a fallen titan of order who ended up putting them on Azeroth

Another interesting tidbit is that outside of Eonar no other titan in the pantheon holds power of a central cosmic force

[Ivarr]

I wouldn't be surprised if it pops up before the expansion is over... OR they decided to move it into the Lifelands/Gardens of Life.

That's a nuance I hadn't even considered. The reason we see more references to the Ancestral Pane in the base game is because the shamanic spirits stick closer to the living. So in that sense it makes perfect sense for them not to end up in the afterlife at all but rather some liminal space between the Shadowlands and the physical realm.

[Nagawithlegs]

Another interesting tidbit is that outside of Eonar no other titan in the pantheon holds power of a central cosmic force

Argus had a grip on Death and Aman'thul is implied to be the most Arcane because he has power over Time.

However... if it does turn out that Time is the First One power, then he would've been the Time Titan.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a nuance I hadn't even considered. The reason we see more references to the Ancestral Pane in the base game is because the shamanic spirits stick closer to the living. So in that sense it makes perfect sense for them not to end up in the afterlife at all but rather some liminal space between the Shadowlands and the physical realm.

The Shadowlands/Broker cosmology chart also paints the elements as more important than the Titan one did, so we may see it pop up sooner than later.

If this is indeed a 3 patch expansion, I can see .2 being a trip to Lifelands/Ancestral Plane before 9.3

[Ivarr]

If this is indeed a 3 patch expansion, I can see .2 being a trip to Lifelands/Ancestral Plane before 9.3

I would love nothing more than that. I can tolerate imperfect gameplay if the setting is enjoyable. But this creepy brother's Grimm stuff is only fun for a brief period, and it's compounded by the idea that players get that there's no escape from the dourness, they're all dour in their own way.

It's why Northrend came with Sholazar Basin, sure it told a story about the Titans, which was important. But it was also a great pretext to give the players a tropical setting so the expansion wouldn't feel as bleak.

That's what Shadowlands could use as well. A primitive place filled with raw beauty, where massive beings older than time lumber around without judgement, call it 'The Uncarved Block'.

[Revamp Man]

Argus had a grip on Death and Aman'thul is implied to be the most Arcane because he has power over Time.

However... if it does turn out that Time is the First One power, then he would've been the Time Titan.

- - - Updated - - -



The Shadowlands/Broker cosmology chart also paints the elements as more important than the Titan one did, so we may see it pop up sooner than later.

If this is indeed a 3 patch expansion, I can see .2 being a trip to Lifelands/Ancestral Plane before 9.3

Argus isn’t part of the pantheon and arcane isn’t a central cosmic force
Arcane is related to order
Time is also not a central force

[Ivarr]

Time is a flat circle.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Argus had a grip on Death and Aman'thul is implied to be the most Arcane because he has power over Time.

However... if it does turn out that Time is the First One power, then he would've been the Time Titan.

That gave me a (whack-job) idea, what if the Titans are the reincarnation of the First Ones? They ordered the afterlife, but maybe they couldn't cross over into the mortal plane (permanently) which lead to them reincarnating themselves in the form of the Titans, so that they could continue to order the universe. That would also work with the theory of the Sepulcher being their final resting place.

I wouldn't be surprised if the First Ones somehow created the Titans in some other fashion either, much like they created the Eternal Ones - though admittedly I have alot of issues with putting the Eternal Ones on the same level as the Titans, since the Titans have always been protrayed as way more aloof and distanced from others, wheres the Eternal Ones seem barely stronger than their high level underlings in SL.

Edit: Btw, the SL book releasing before Blizzard can properly reveal the First Ones makes the book kinda seem likely forever incomplete.

[Sondrelk]

I would love nothing more than that. I can tolerate imperfect gameplay if the setting is enjoyable. But this creepy brother's Grimm stuff is only fun for a brief period, and it's compounded by the idea that players get that there's no escape from the dourness, they're all dour in their own way.

It's why Northrend came with Sholazar Basin, sure it told a story about the Titans, which was important. But it was also a great pretext to give the players a tropical setting so the expansion wouldn't feel as bleak.

That's what Shadowlands could use as well. A primitive place filled with raw beauty, where massive beings older than time lumber around without judgement, call it 'The Uncarved Block'.

Do you mean something bright and sunny? Like for instance Bastion? Or something not quite so dead? Like for instance Ardenweald.

SL has plenty of variety in that regard. It to me faisl in that Bastion is too bright, and the rest are constantly in night which makes it feel stagnant, but it isnt all miserable.

[Merin]

10.0 prediction: yet another seasonal style expansion with a few temporary systems, everything else is exactly the same as it has been since Legion.

10.0 story: Does it really matter anymore? They had the chance to end it at Legion, which it (and WoD) were both fairly lame but still lightyears beyond BfA and Shadowlands. Shadowlands might be one of the worst narratives I've ever seen in any video game. You cannot salvage this weird time traveling, retconning super mess without writing in a doodad that simply erases it.

[Ivarr]

Do you mean something bright and sunny? Like for instance Bastion? Or something not quite so dead? Like for instance Ardenweald.

I'm thinking more like a combination of Gorgrond, Maraudon and Deepholme, only more abstract and shimmery.

Ardenwaeld indeed feels the most primordial. Amidst these artificed settings. But even Ardenwaeld can't escape feeling man-made.

It's not the colour or brightness, it's the level of sophistication in which the player arrives. These four settings are fully developed, as if people have been living and carefully maintaining it for aeons. The player arrives in a lived-in world. Which is good. But now the player needs to escape these suffocating stramines.