Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

I'm surprised more people haven't caught on that the Pantheon of Death may not be an organic thing for the Shadowlands, and instead was created by Order forces.

I really doubt there was always an Arbiter, a Pantheon and a strictly regimented system of death.

All things in the Cosmos have a system. Chaos' "system" is to bring about mindless destruction, and Order is meant to counter that. The Pantheon of Death exists to provide an afterlife for those that die within the physical universe, and the Arbiter exists to transport the souls to their respective afterlives, as well as bring about Anima to those realms. Life is that but of the opposite force. Light and Shadow work similarly in their own ways. The entire Cosmic Chart is a balance.

You can provide this "Death is affected by Order" argument to the entire chart with this logic. Doesn't mean you're right. The Titans are connected to the Pantheon of Death the same way they are connected to the Void Lords, the Demons, the Naaru's keepers, etc.

"I really doubt there was always an Arbiter, a Pantheon and a strictly regimented system of death." She's literally argued to be older than the Titans on accounts, and Oribos is literally a giant city made by the First Ones. Why would the Arbiter be made by the Titans when everything argues against that?

[Nagawithlegs]

"I really doubt there was always an Arbiter, a Pantheon and a strictly regimented system of death." She's literally argued to be older than the Titans on accounts, and Oribos is literally a giant city made by the First Ones. Why would the Arbiter be made by the Titans when everything argues against that?

I didn't say that the Titans intervened, but the force of Order that created the Titans. The Titans are not confirmed to be the top entity of Order and likely have a creator.

[TheFirstOnes]

I didn't say that the Titans intervened, but the force of Order that created the Titans. The Titans are not confirmed to be the top entity of Order and likely have a creator.

What makes you say that they're not the top force of Order? If anything, the First Ones are much more than just an "order" force. They seem to be the power that expands past the Cosmic Chart.

[Nagawithlegs]

What makes you say that they're not the top force of Order? If anything, the First Ones are much more than just an "order" force. They seem to be the power that expands past the Cosmic Chart.

The First Ones (if Elune is one) do seem to make up multiple magic forces so yeah I agree with you there.

But the plane of Order remains to be seen (and is not yet confirmed to be The Great Dark/Space/Reality) as well as the explanation as to why the world souls were seeded in the first place. I don't think the lore is meant to be "they just happened" anymore and we're eventually going to find that the Titans are something akin to the Old Gods: things that were scattered around the universe to fulfill their magic's purpose (in this case Ordering things).

The Pantheon of Death is all over the place with its leaders and the Jailer's backstory is heavily looking like he was overthrown/usurped somehow (see his concept art/maybe final form that makes him look like a king, and the Maw Lore pointing to the Maw originally being a place called Obleron that may have been a kind of kingdom beforehand). Considering the only other "Pantheon" we've heard of is the Void Lords, who don't seem to have a rigid structure like the PoD, I think the Pantheon of Death was created by Order and didn't just naturally exist in the Shadowlands.

It would explain why they feel like a copy of the titan pantheon, down to the name: because they are. Order had its way and made the death realm very organized for some reason.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Considering the only other "Pantheon" we've heard of is the Void Lords, who don't seem to have a rigid structure like the PoD"

That's not really true. The Naaru's keepers could also be a Pantheon, and the Void Lords have their own realm like the other Cosmic Forces apparently.

Yeah, there's a system throughout the Cosmos, but that in itself doesn't need to be an Order only factor.

[Revamp Man]

What makes you say that they're not the top force of Order? If anything, the First Ones are much more than just an "order" force. They seem to be the power that expands past the Cosmic Chart.

you can argue the titans are the first ones
at least a couple of them
(incoming speculation)

in 1000 years war Alleria connects with argus and sees that he existed before memory thus before time thus before the first titan that we know of
he was also the titan of death and the way he speaks sounds as though he is tied to the shadowlands

now in SL we learn that the waystone allowing travel in and out of the maw is of the first ones but we can look at how it works and see that it reacted to the PC but not the others we were with, a mage, a shaman, a priest loved by the light, and a cow. So we look at what reasons that would be and the biggest reason would be we are "the champion of azeroth" and thus have a tie to the titan azeroth hinting that she has a connection to the first ones.

Now as far as we know Azeroth is a titan that is unborn and has always been unborn except for a couple of important lines.
"we must assemble the final titan"
"she is not the last but the first"

so now is where the speculation really goes into overdrive
the titans as with all beings go through a kind of rebirth cycle and its very possible that argus and azeroth were the original titans
the arbiter has a similar color scheme to everything azerite

[TheFirstOnes]

"you can argue the titans are the first ones"

No, you cannot. Their tech is different from the Titans, they're stated to be different than the Titans, and their range expands beyond what we know of the Titans.

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"the titans as with all beings go through a kind of rebirth cycle and its very possible that argus and azeroth were the original titans"

What? The Titans just go back to their realm of Order when they die, or their spirits are used for energy shit (Like we've seen at Antorus). Also, original titans? Fuck no. They're not even born yet.

""we must assemble the final titan"
"she is not the last but the first""

That doesn't mean anything. Lots of shit like explains that Azeroth's the last titan, but is the only one with enough power to stop the Void Lords if awoken. That's probably what "the first" statement means.

"now in SL we learn that the waystone allowing travel in and out of the maw is of the first ones but we can look at how it works and see that it reacted to the PC but not the others we were with, a mage, a shaman, a priest loved by the light, and a cow."

Anduin already explains that the tech of the First Ones is not of Titan origin though. So, no?

"So we look at what reasons that would be and the biggest reason would be we are "the champion of azeroth" and thus have a tie to the titan azeroth hinting that she has a connection to the first ones."

You can't prove this. This is just an assumption and nothing more.

"In 1000 years war Alleria connects with argus and sees that he existed before memory thus before time"

Ok? Just means Argus travelled across the Cosmos before memory was a factor. The dude was likely in the Realm of Order prior, since all cosmic realms seem to spam beyond the history of reality itself.

"he was also the titan of death and the way he speaks sounds as though he is tied to the shadowlands"

Ok? The Legion has had multiple ties to the Shadowlands, and Eonar also has ties with Life (Hell, it's argued that she and the Winter Queen are sisters, which is an assumption, but a well argued one tbh), but still. You could just argue that Titans wield unique abilities that can span across different cosmic powers. Doesn't mean the Titans formed the fucking Shadowlands or shit like that.

[therumblings]

Yeah, the Titans are definitely different than First Ones. I can see the First Ones being the beings that initiated the clash between light and void birthing the cosmos as we know it, shaping planets (titans) and everything.

Though I have to admit I kind of am nostalgic for the time when Titans were the biggest entities we knew about.

[TheFirstOnes]

Hell, it's much better to argue that the Eternal Ones and the Titans are moreso comparable, as it's stated by Ion in an interview that the Death Pantheon is analogous to the Titan Pantheon we see in reality. Though, Steve Danuser said that the Winter Queen and co were comparable to the Keepers/Watchers, which is a confusing statement, since we mostly know the Keepers as part of an Azeroth only thing tbh.

Either way, nothing here implies that the Titans are the First Ones whatsoever.

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Yeah, the Titans are definitely different than First Ones. I can see the First Ones being the beings that initiated the clash between light and void birthing the cosmos as we know it, shaping planets (titans) and everything.

Though I have to admit I kind of am nostalgic for the time when Titans were the biggest entities we knew about.

I am nostalgic of it too. As much as I want to know more of the Warcraft Cosmos (Cause, of course), it does suck knowing that these Cosmic powers don't feel as badass anymore imo.

I agree with the First Ones statement though. They're likely the "clockmakers" that made everything, such as the Big Bang, the laws of the Cosmos, etc. Ion even talks about the "clockmaker that made everything" and who that could be, which I assume are the First Ones.

[OwenBurton]

Yeah, the Titans are definitely different than First Ones. I can see the First Ones being the beings that initiated the clash between light and void birthing the cosmos as we know it, shaping planets (titans) and everything.

Though I have to admit I kind of am nostalgic for the time when Titans were the biggest entities we knew about.

I am nostalgic for when the Pantheon was vaguely considered stronger than Sargeras. Now, of course, Sargeras could apparently easily obliterate them all, and they are apparently weak to his power specifically. I'm not even how they are containing him -- could he not simply summon another massive fel storm and annihilate them?

[Daronokk]

10.0: It will be an expansion about Light and Void, as Blizzard already said at last Blizzcon that they find this concept very interesting. Alleria, Turalyon, Calia, and Yrel will obviously be main characters of this expansion. I am also 99.9% sure that Alleria will be the poster girl of this expansion, simply because Windrunner girls sell videogames (the 0.1% has Calia or Yrel as poster girls instead). That's as far as my main theorycrafting for 10.0 goes.

Oh look, another Alliance centric expansion. This wouldn't surprise me anymore. They should just call it World of Alliancecraft or something at this point.

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For the 9.X.5 patches I would imagine we will get the remaining heritage armors. There are no Allied Races which I imagine took a lot of artist work in BfA, leaving a void that will likely be used both for the return of Class-specific armor, as well as Heritage armor for the remaining 5 races not counting Humans and Orcs, which I still imagine will come at the earliest in 9.3.5, if not in 10.1.5.

Why should Orcs and Humans get theirs last when they're the most important to the franchise as a whole? It doesn't make sense to give them the short end of the stick over say, Pandaren.

[Sondrelk]

Oh look, another Alliance centric expansion. This wouldn't surprise me anymore. They should just call it World of Alliancecraft or something at this point.

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Why should Orcs and Humans get theirs last when they're the most important to the franchise as a whole? It doesn't make sense to give them the short end of the stick over say, Pandaren.

Personally I imagine that humans and orcs will have heritage based around the Alliance and Horde as a whole, which means it would make more sense to have them last as a sort of crowning achievement.

There is also the fact that alliance and horde armor is mostly based around humans and orcs anyways, so they don't really have a pressing need for something unique like draenei or pandaren do.

[Revamp Man]

if we dont go back to azeroth during any patch content then i can almost guarantee its a dragon isles expansion coming in 10.0

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and based on current storylines in terms of heritage armor i think we will get night elf and posssibly troll heritage armor

[therumblings]

I wonder if they will make the Pandaren Heritage armor different for Alliance and Horde Pandas? There definitely will be a Keg apart of it though, no way they would squander the chance.

[Sondrelk]

I wonder if they will make the Pandaren Heritage armor different for Alliance and Horde Pandas? There definitely will be a Keg apart of it though, no way they would squander the chance.

I would guess they look similar, but with dlight cosmetic changes showing their allegiance.

[AbalDarkwind]

if we dont go back to azeroth during any patch content then i can almost guarantee its a dragon isles expansion coming in 10.0

100% agree with that. I know a lot of people think Light vs. Void is next, but considering that expansion is almost guaranteed to be off-Azeroth, I think we'll need an on-Azeroth expansion first. Dragon Isles makes the most sense considering the numerous, continuing, and unresolved dragonflight plotlines that have been touched on in every expansion since Cata.

[huth]

I didn’t say Shadowlands judges. It is limbo. It is not true death realm. The areas are keeping souls to serve their ends.

Blizzard says it is the afterlife, so it is. Your headcanon is irrelevant.

[Dracullus]

It's good to have some Blizzcon hype again, even if this year is focused on remasters and patches. At least we have no idea what will be in 9.1 and leak would be hard to do in this format.

[Revamp Man]

100% agree with that. I know a lot of people think Light vs. Void is next, but considering that expansion is almost guaranteed to be off-Azeroth, I think we'll need an on-Azeroth expansion first. Dragon Isles makes the most sense considering the numerous, continuing, and unresolved dragonflight plotlines that have been touched on in every expansion since Cata.

we will eventually get the light vs void expansion and we are getting some hints about how those realms work
for example when a naaru dies they go back to the realm of light meaning xera aint gone for good and since other realms are unique and span between our dimensions much like the sahdowlands...she might want revenge and be the naaru that brainwashed yrel

old gods dont just disappear since echos still exist and they also go back to the realm of the void lords when they die so more big baddies and we might get to face them in different forms and find out why xalatath was torn apart by her brothers and who her brothers are.

I am under the impression that whatever we do at the end of the expansion will cause a time skip but its also possible we dont skip so why would we go to the dragon isles??
well simply enough we find that our world needs stronger defenders and the heroes of azeroth are not the ones to fill those roles so the dragons need to get their power back. We could get the dragonsworn class where we are wrathions guard turned into powerful guardian of the flights similar to how alodi was strengthened and we already see that they can channel their energies into something else like they did with the heart. The infinite would obviously be an enemy especially since we stopped the hour of twilight so now we gotta deal with how that changes events. The scarlet crusade could be making a comeback as pointed out through the journals from bfa. We could work on creating new aspects since most are gone and we could use azeroth to empower all of them.

SOOOO MANY POSSIBILITIES!!!!!

i want blizzconline already because we need those teases to figure this garbage out (yes blizzard is extremely predicatable ppl thats how you get ppl predicting half of an expansion after a year)

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It's good to have some Blizzcon hype again, even if this year is focused on remasters and patches. At least we have no idea what will be in 9.1 and leak would be hard to do in this format.

assault on the maw
bfa style assaults where maw forces attack a zone in the shadowlands then we attack an area in the maw
more torghast wings
more leggos
new leggo upgrades
more soulbinds
more campaign stuff
possibly new stuff added to the sanctum
more soulbind rows
more renown
new raid and possibly dungeon
anduin cutscene
more venari stuff
catch up gear
tier sets??
possibly heritage armor

those are what you can expect from 9.1
no "believe me its a leak"
just looking at the very obvious blizzard pattern

[Fahrad Wagner]

I would guess they look similar, but with dlight cosmetic changes showing their allegiance.

That's my guess as well, either a different colour palette or different sigils to differentiate Huojin from Tushui Pandaren.